Codex: Space Marines 2.0 speculation & discussion

[MegaVolt87]

15 pts seems too cheap for the fusil at those stats. 20 pts minimum would be reasonable.

[Ishagu]

15 pts seems too cheap for the fusil at those stats. 20 pts minimum would be reasonable.

Why? A Lascannon is 20 and these have less range, Str and less damage potential.

[Closet Skeleton]

Marine lascannons are 25 still, only missile launchers went down to 20.

 

15 is right if they come in 3s, 20 if they come in 6s.

 

A full lascannon devastator squad is 230 and I'd* happily pay that for 5 fusils and a carbine sarge and don't see them coming at under 180.

 

*except not since I'm going pure bolt weapons with Imperial fist tactics

[Ishagu]

Ah yeah, it's only the twin Lascannon that went down to 40.

 

The weapon is still only a bit better than an overcharged plasma shot.

 

I will add that if the Eliminators are only maxing out at 3 I doubt I'll be investing in them in any significant capacity.

 

The Impulsor is a must buy, and I'll be getting Infiltrators for those comms guys as they are very useful.

[BolterZorro]

GW is favoring MSU here. 2 or 3 eliminators squads, covering most of the battlefield, making most of enemies under crossfire is super powerful: don't underestimate the moral of your oponent player which has some tough choice to make.

In addition, transports with HQ/intercessors+sergent power fist, + tanks and dread more resilient than ever (IH trait) and more powerful (tactic)...

SM 2.0 gives us so many more options.

 

The downside: we are not super resilient. We have to hit hard before being hit hard.

[Panzer]

The difference of a unit of 6 Las fusil Eliminators with the Sergeant not shooting and 2x3 with both Sergeants not shooting to provide the buff is about 1.5 damage against T8 Sv3+ and 2 damage against T7 Sv3+. It's annoying but it could be worse. In the end they still do 6-8 damage on average as 2x3.

The best thing about them will be that the enemy will see them as huge threat and focus lots of fire on their Sv1+ in cover to get rid of them. ^^

[Ishagu]

Yeah maybe. I'm looking forward to the book for sure.

 

So far my priority purchases are:

 

-Codex + Ultra Supplement

-Impulsor

-Tiggy

-10 more Infiltrators (I already have 20 but want two of the comms guys and a squad of 5 Incursors)

 

I might end up with two Impulsors but I'll have to see the rest of the book first.

[MajorNese]

To be entirely honest, the high release rate makes me a bit sceptical.

 

Any time we've worked out how to use our stuff, along comes something new which (in part) invalidates the previous units. Splitting a single rules update into 7 publications doesn't help the overview too - remember 7th edition, when the current Newest Hotness list was switched out every two weeks?

 

Guess I'll put marines aside until Armies on Parade, and work with a full picture when the dust has settled. Until then, my painting time is allocated to the Omnissiah...

[MajorNese]

Without full rules, the buffs are only part of the picture. Points adjustments are rather probable when factoring in all those buffs, everything else would be an acknowledgement of having miscalculated Astartes units hard for pretty much half of this edition.

 

I don't entirely see why negating cover is such a big deal when it comes to marines. Tau have been doing it since forever with everything, CC entirely ignores it, and unless marines sacrifice their CT for it, it's restricted to basic bolters. Using that CT on an enemy without need for cover even invalidates half of the CT entirely.

Ignoring to-hit penalties is also restricted to bolters (of a unit that can't do anything else), while swiss knife Dark Reapers have been around the entire time.

Forward deployment, with units that are too slow to march up, doesn't even get close to the mobility of other factions, and given their CC weakness might backfire spectacularly.

 

All in all, I'm glad marines got some flexibility to do something else (under specific circumstances) other than just putting standard imperial weaponry on PA dudes and get wiped off the board by everyone with their fancy tricks up their sleeves. Also the Doctrine system is quite restrictive when not restricting yourself to very specific units/weapons. There's always a mixture of heavy/RF/assault weaponry, and there's always some units ending up in CC.

Skitarii did that army-wide shoehorning first (with increasing BS while decreasing WS), and it was quite unwieldy to play. Want to shoot well? Then say goodbye to any unit ending up in CC, at WS1.

 

As with every release, armies are most powerful when only a part of the rules has been leaked, things will settle down soon enough when some of the hypothetical winner units/factions turn out to be worse than thought. Or, to translate a saying from my language - nothing is eaten as hot as it was cooked.

[Reigart]

 

 

 

 

I'm really torn as to which "vanilla" army I want to do. I've always loved Salamanders, but their chapter tactic is pretty pointless on primaris (I'm one of the in the middle, grey area kinda people in that I like primaris and first born at the same time and want a fairly even mix of both in my army). i like both IF and CF equally from a fluff and colour scheme point of view and tactically think both are pretty good mid to upper tier armies. And finally there's the attraction of creating my own chapter, most likely a Salamanders successor but with different CT than their progenitors

I'm liking everything I'm seeing about this release, and want to do a small Phobos force along side whatever army I do choose. The Impulsor looks cool, but I'd definitely be using the shield dome or comms array as if I want anti air I'll take a dedicated anti air tank or a stromhawk.

Finally, instead of tactical doctrines I hope we get some bespoke rules for DA,DA and SW. I'm not a rules writer so I've no idea, but for example maybe hunter protocols and acquisition protocols tuat benefit RW and DW specifically in for DA

Salamanders Chapter tactic is incredible on Primaris.

.

The latter half reducing the AP to AP0 from AP1 is useful, however the reroll to hit and wound, not so much. Its perfect for tactical squads, with weapons like LC, MM and MG and could even save a plasma gunner from death, but what are you going to use it on for intercessors? A bolt rifle? Maybe the aux GL? Seems a waste compare to IF/CF that benefit the whole squad.

It's free rerolls per squad per attack phase. That's basically free CP.

And rerolls on single shot weapons are always good, so on the Grenade Launcher.

.

True all that. But two things worth pointing out are those rerolls are better in a tactical squad as you've got a much better selection of better single shot/high strength weapons plus the ability to take TH on the sarge, which can't be done on intercessors, the best you've got are fists. Its not so much that the CT is useless on primaris, but rather you get more bang for your buck so to speak for taking first born.

Salamanders also have interesting uses for things like combat squading. You could take multiple tactical squads, each with a cc focused sarge, assault weapon and heavy weapon; then combat squad them, allowing each combat squad to get a re roll. If you did this with 2 squads, It’s possible then to put 2 combats of sarge and assault weapons in a rhino, with having 2 heavy weapons with the ability to get re rolls.

[Karhedron]

The lack of 10man transport capacity makes it a non-starter. Maybe a future expansion will give a version without the guns that carries ten.

I guess they wanted to retain a unique role for the Repulsor. A 10-man Impulsor would come perilously close to invalidating the Repulsor.

[Mandragola]

 

The lack of 10man transport capacity makes it a non-starter. Maybe a future expansion will give a version without the guns that carries ten.

I guess they wanted to retain a unique role for the Repulsor. A 10-man Impulsor would come perilously close to invalidating the Repulsor.

 

 

Exactly this. It needs to have a unique role, not just be a better repulsor.

 

This thing is an excellent transport for hellblasters. Not so much for anyone else to be honest, but it does a job extremely well. It's also excellent for grabbing objectives as it lets you send obsec guys a really long way.

 

There are still some pretty gaps in the Primaris range though and it's kind of odd we're getting new stuff that doesn't tick those boxes. I'm surprised there isn't a flyer yet, as it means we've got no way of representing how Primaris get down from their ships. 

[Marshal Rohr]

 

The lack of 10man transport capacity makes it a non-starter. Maybe a future expansion will give a version without the guns that carries ten.

I guess they wanted to retain a unique role for the Repulsor. A 10-man Impulsor would come perilously close to invalidating the Repulsor.

A light ifv and a heavy ifv both have roles on the battlefield. More options are always better than less, even if two units compete to do the same thing. An army themed around a light strike force of Phobos armored Primaris should have the same ability to transport ten men as an army themed around Tacticus and gravis armored infantry without having to divide squads into MSUs. Every army should have a suite of vehicles from light to heavy to better represent the narrative realities of the universe than just solely focusing on in game mechanics. The Andy Hoare interview really captures the spirit of this when he talked about armies not being great in every type of battle.

[Maxamato]

 

The lack of 10man transport capacity makes it a non-starter. Maybe a future expansion will give a version without the guns that carries ten.

I guess they wanted to retain a unique role for the Repulsor. A 10-man Impulsor would come perilously close to invalidating the Repulsor.

 

If the unique role of the Impulser is, to tranport only 6 Marines, is this a poor unique feature IMO.

 

Becuase in previous edition we had Rhinos and Landraiders as well. One was a cheap transport (and only a tranpsort) the other is a hevy assault vehicle with transport capacity.

 

I'm really disappointed with the Impulsor becuase now we don't have a cheap transport for a 10 Marines Primaris squad. :(

The 4++ is nice but I know a lot of armies whcih will handle this very well ( in fact every army who can handle at least one IK will not have any issue with them).

[Karhedron]

Also impulsirs shield is a bubble like the dread from forgeworld?

This is a good question. The word "dome" implies it might be but there is actually nothing in the article to suggest this. Based on what is written, I suspect that the Shield Dome will just give the Impuslor itself a 4++. If it creates a 4++ aura then expect to see 3+ in every Marine army!

[Karhedron]

 

 

The lack of 10man transport capacity makes it a non-starter. Maybe a future expansion will give a version without the guns that carries ten.

I guess they wanted to retain a unique role for the Repulsor. A 10-man Impulsor would come perilously close to invalidating the Repulsor.

 

If the unique role of the Impulser is, to tranport only 6 Marines, is this a poor unique feature IMO.

 

Becuase in previous edition we had Rhinos and Landraiders as well. One was a cheap transport (and only a tranpsort) the other is a hevy assault vehicle with transport capacity.

 

I'm really disappointed with the Impulsor becuase now we don't have a cheap transport for a 10 Marines Primaris squad.

The 4++ is nice but I know a lot of armies whcih will handle this very well ( in fact every army who can handle at least one IK will not have any issue with them).

 

I think the unique role of the Impulsor is that it is a cheap Transport in an army that currently lacks that. Want to get some Hellblasters into double-tap range quickly? This fills that role. It will definitely be viable if it can take Gravis (hello Flamestorm Aggressors).

 

A light vehicle with a 4++ will not be hard to kill on its own but if the rumoured costs are true, this thing is going to be <100 points for some loadouts meaning that spamming them looks viable. Your opponent won't be killing many of them before they have unloaded their cargo at which point the Marines themselves become the primary target.

[Maxamato]

@Karhedron

I see your point and its true! But, why on the hell, I can't transport 10....., ok it enaough from my side

 

One of my point is, ok it is from a competitve view, that Eldar, Tau, Knights Astra etc have no issues to kill several vehicles in a turm.

I have played i.e. 15 Chimeras in a torunament and I have lost in average 4-5 Chimares each turn.

 

The other point is, if I use multiple Impulser, than I have lesser points for more killing stuff.

[MajorNese]

 

The lack of 10man transport capacity makes it a non-starter. Maybe a future expansion will give a version without the guns that carries ten.

I guess they wanted to retain a unique role for the Repulsor. A 10-man Impulsor would come perilously close to invalidating the Repulsor.

I guess they wanted to be consistent on the "light IFV" theme. It's light, fast, it throws units across the board with the Assault Vehicle rule (something few, if any army has right now) and supports them afterwards, but it's no mass conveyor. Maybe there will be an enclosed variant to carry more, but that won't happen until sales of the current one go down - people would buy their preferred version, not both.

 

Still, at capacity 6, every possible primaris unit becomes usable. 5 man unit plus HQ, and If it can carry Gravis too, it would even make firebat aggressors playable - something we've waited for quite a while. If it is cheap enough, numbers will make up for the smaller capacity. Anyways better than getting another 300+ points Repulsor variant, that's simply too expensive and slow to charge up the field, which only ends up invalidating the previous Repulsor variants.

 

For the shield dome, it could turn out similar to the Dominus knights, handing out a weaker invul to nearby units at the cost of CP by "overcharging" it. Otherwise calling it a dome doesn't really add up.

[MARK0SIAN]

Personally, I can’t see the shield dome giving out an invulnerable bubble unless it’s a stratagem.

 

The only analogous unit is the Deredeo Dread from FW. If you buy the Atomantic Pavaise upgrade, which is 35 points more on a roughly 180 point platform, you can give out a 5++ bubble to nearby units. Now I know it pays a points tax for being FW but I can’t see a model that’s around 120 points cheaper handing out a better invulnerable save to nearby units.

[BolterZorro]

There is no bubble: the invul is for itself. That's it.

[SkimaskMohawk]

So ultramarines focus is up. They always count as being stationary during tactical doctrine if they didn't advance or fallback. Now at first glance, it doesn't say it's weapon dependant which means all heavy weapons can move and shoot. But I'm increasingly sure each unit will be given one of the specific doctrines as a rule, which would make the wording on yesterday's article and this one make a lot more sense. If I'm right, it would also mean a repulsor isn't going to benefit from both heavy and tactical, but would only get the one (if it all).

 

Regardless, veteran intercessors are going to pumping out fire power and can proc AP -3 lol

[Lemondish]

So ultramarines focus is up. They always count as being stationary during tactical doctrine if they didn't advance or fallback. Now at first glance, it doesn't say it's weapon dependant which means all heavy weapons can move and shoot. But I'm increasingly sure each unit will be given one of the specific doctrines as a rule, which would make the wording on yesterday's article and this one make a lot more sense. If I'm right, it would also mean a repulsor isn't going to benefit from both heavy and tactical, but would only get the one (if it all).

 

Regardless, veteran intercessors are going to pumping out fire power and can proc AP -3 lol

The Doctrines affect weapon types, right? So all units are under the relevant doctrine, but not all their weapons (or even sometimes any of them) will be improved.

 

They specifically linked a Predator that would not gain any AP bonus under tactical doctrine, but could move and fire without penalty.

 

And do you know what else? Repulsor Executioners moving full speed but still counting as stationary for shooting purposes, so they'll still double tap.

 

Ultras just became a hell of a lot more mobile in everything they do during Tactical Doctrine. When you decide to swap over the Doctrine is going to matter a lot, but you'll always likely remain in Tactical once you do make the swap.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Oh wow yea I missed part pre-rule where they talk about vehicles moving with heavy weapons.

 

And ya, nvm, this is going to be nuts. It feels like the 7th ed skaven book dropping while actually being written for 8th and just handling everything else.

 

At least they need to spend a turn not having this crazy bonus before they mow down their opponent.

[helterskelter]

I can understand now why the +30 points on the executioner...

Probably Gulli up in points too...

A points increase is only fair at this point given 6/7 special rules before we even consider what stratagems there are. Not that they're needed at this point, though i imagine they'll give endless cacophony to aggressors or inceptors or something daft

[Ishagu]

Some pretty crazy buffs but I love it.

 

My flamer Aggressors will now disembark and auto hit a unit 100 times. I fancy them to bring down anything up to t7 in one turn when you add the AP modifier.

 

Intercessors are very good too, very flexible to have that Scions of Guilliman. What an amazing Troop unit they will be.

 

Tiggy is basically Eldrad now, fantastic stuff.

 

 

I wouldn't call for nerfs to Guilliman or anything just yet. Each faction is getting a supplement and we can't judge anything until we've seen them all.

 

I imagine each chapter will have a special rule that activates during a certain doctrine.