Codex: Space Marines 2.0 speculation & discussion

[Blindhamster]

 

I can understand now why the +30 points on the executioner...

Probably Gulli up in points too...

A points increase is only fair at this point given 6/7 special rules before we even consider what stratagems there are. Not that they're needed at this point, though i imagine they'll give endless cacophony to aggressors or inceptors or something daft

What's sad is other first foundings get the point increases too, but none of the rules to really justify it lol.

 

 

But the ultramarine update looks cool, they feel like they're absolutely brutal.

[Captain Idaho]

Yes that was a sweet read! So if the Tactical Doctrine is active we can fall back and not receive the minus to hit for heavy weapons so the Chapter Tactic gets better.

 

And our Dreads are an assault force again alongside their firepower.

[Indefragable]

So we know what the UM got (and hot diggity at that), but I'm curious what the other chapters will get.

 

If it's 6 unique WLT + 6 unique Relics + 6 unique Psychic powers + 16 unique Strategems for each, then it will be fine and equitable....

 

...but then you have Black Templar. I wonder what they will get in place of Psychic powers?

 

...which also leads me to believe that a little creativity would go a long way which each of the Codex chapters....i.e. White Scars get extra psychic powers or such to represent the Stormseer legacy, Salamanders get extra more than 6 Relics and can take an extra one for free or such, etc...

 

It would be ok, but kinda bland if Raven Guard get a Sneaky Discipline psychic tree and Iron Hands get a Like, Super Tough, Guys, you know? Discipline pychic table. It would be more creative in my opinion if Iron Hands got something psuedo-AdMech canticles instead of their own Psychic powers and RG got something else fluffy instead as well.

 

Just a thought.

[Subtleknife]

Like I like the idea of canticles. I imagine if they do take this route maybe templars will get there own prayers as they have been hunting at them for chaplains.

[Sete]

I'm gonna go ahead and say it, BT is getting jack :cuss.

Just a gut feeling, no pun intended. ;)

[Marshal Reinhard]

A couple of army wide buffs in the form of vows that you buy together with your emperors champion, who is now mandatory but also doesn't count towards your HQ total is a solution that I think most would find an acceptable substitute for a discipline. It has a proven track record

[Toxichobbit]

I'm gonna go ahead and say it, BT is getting jack .

Just a gut feeling, no pun intended.

 

I really hope not. They should get similar stuff to everyone else, after all, while they're not 1st Founding they are an important Chapter with a chunk of background and a large fanbase.

[Ishagu]

 

 

I can understand now why the +30 points on the executioner...

Probably Gulli up in points too...

A points increase is only fair at this point given 6/7 special rules before we even consider what stratagems there are. Not that they're needed at this point, though i imagine they'll give endless cacophony to aggressors or inceptors or something daft

What's sad is other first foundings get the point increases too, but none of the rules to really justify it lol.

 

 

But the ultramarine update looks cool, they feel like they're absolutely brutal.

The playtesters have confirmed that the cost of units are not impacted by things like this.

 

The only Guilliman tax you pay is the 400 points you pay to bring him.

 

Just as the cost of units is not affected by these incredible new Doctrines. Would it not be easy to argue that Aggressors who always shoot twice should cost more points?

 

 

Edit:

 

Us Marine players might finally know the feeling that Eldar players always have lol

[Sete]

 

 

I'm gonna go ahead and say it, BT is getting jack .

Just a gut feeling, no pun intended.

I really hope not. They should get similar stuff to everyone else, after all, while they're not 1st Founding they are an important Chapter with a chunk of background and a large fanbase.

Unfortunately that's not how GW sees it.

But enough of my doom and gloom, there are releases to be enjoyed.

 

I might be proven wrong at the end.

[QimRas]

Wait, so Scions of Guilliman lets you move without counting as moving as long as Tactical Doctrine is active.

 

Tactical Doctrine looks like it applies to vehicles too, as does Scions of Guiliman.

 

Executioners can doubletap if they don't move or move less than half.

 

So does that mean Ultramarine Executioners can full move and doubletap when under Tactical Doctrine?

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

I can understand now why the +30 points on the executioner...

Probably Gulli up in points too...

A points increase is only fair at this point given 6/7 special rules before we even consider what stratagems there are. Not that they're needed at this point, though i imagine they'll give endless cacophony to aggressors or inceptors or something daft

What's sad is other first foundings get the point increases too, but none of the rules to really justify it lol.

 

 

But the ultramarine update looks cool, they feel like they're absolutely brutal.

The playtesters have confirmed that the cost of units are not impacted by things like this.

 

The only Guilliman tax you pay is the 400 points you pay to bring him.

 

Just as the cost of units is not affected by these incredible new Doctrines. Would it not be easy to argue that Aggressors who always shoot twice should cost more points?

 

 

Edit:

 

Us Marine players might finally know the feeling that Eldar players always have lol

I really don't believe the playtesters here and never have. It's impossible for it to not be a consideration after all.

 

But that's for another thread and neither of us will really change our minds anyway ;)

 

I'm real interested in seeing how the other Chapters will maximize their own favoured Doctrine. I imagine that's where BT will gain major benefit I imagine.

[Ishagu]

Wait, so Scions of Guilliman lets you move without counting as moving as long as Tactical Doctrine is active.

 

Tactical Doctrine looks like it applies to vehicles too, as does Scions of Guiliman.

 

Executioners can doubletap if they don't move or move less than half.

 

So does that mean Ultramarine Executioners can full move and doubletap when under Tactical Doctrine?

Yeah, that's what it means. I'm hoping that there is a strat to switch on turn 1 - I expect there will be.

Ultras will want to live under that Doctrine.

 

I'll be going far more infantry heavy in future lists.

 

 

@Lemondish

 

It's not how the game is designed. The spice comes from rule stacking that isn't accounted for in the price. For exampple; look at the obnoxious Eldar flyers - it's a 112 point unit that is near impossible to hit and has tremendous firepower that auto hits. That cost is built around it's statline, it's a t6 vehicle with a crappy save.

 

Then, you layer on multiple modifiers, and suddenly it's -3 to hit and near invincible.

[Lemondish]

Wait, so Scions of Guilliman lets you move without counting as moving as long as Tactical Doctrine is active.

 

Tactical Doctrine looks like it applies to vehicles too, as does Scions of Guiliman.

 

Executioners can doubletap if they don't move or move less than half.

 

So does that mean Ultramarine Executioners can full move and doubletap when under Tactical Doctrine?

Yes. And Aggressors. And Intercessors.

 

All while rerolling all failed hits and wounds.

[QimRas]

 

Wait, so Scions of Guilliman lets you move without counting as moving as long as Tactical Doctrine is active.

 

Tactical Doctrine looks like it applies to vehicles too, as does Scions of Guiliman.

 

Executioners can doubletap if they don't move or move less than half.

 

So does that mean Ultramarine Executioners can full move and doubletap when under Tactical Doctrine?

Yeah, that's what it means. I'm hoping that there is a strat to switch on turn 1 - I expect there will be.

Ultras will want to live under that Doctrine.

 

I'll be going far more infantry heavy in future lists.

 

 

@Lemondish

 

It's not how the game is designed. The spice comes from rule stacking that isn't accounted for in the price. For exampple; look at the obnoxious Eldar flyers - it's a 112 point unit that is near impossible to hit and has tremendous firepower that auto hits. That cost is built around it's statline, it's a t6 vehicle with a crappy save.

 

Then, you layer on multiple modifiers, and suddenly it's -3 to hit and near invincible.

 

 

Well.... Alright then.

 

That is going to hurt.

[helterskelter]

@Lemondish

 

It's not how the game is designed. The spice comes from rule stacking that isn't accounted for in the price. For exampple; look at the obnoxious Eldar flyers - it's a 112 point unit that is near impossible to hit and has tremendous firepower that auto hits. That cost is built around it's statline, it's a t6 vehicle with a crappy save.

 

Then, you layer on multiple modifiers, and suddenly it's -3 to hit and near invincible.

And yet there are ways to negate all that so its still just a t6 flyer with a pants save.

 

But an entire army can move and fire without penalty and that's perfectly acceptable? I don't think so coco

[Ishagu]

@helterskelter

Hey, it's about time Astartes had their day in the sun as one of, if not the best factions.

 

We've all grown to accept that Eldar dominate the tabletop. Time for a shake up. I'm sure that the Eldar codex 6 months from now will be just as crazy lol

[Kain Mor]

@helterskelter

Hey, it's about time Astartes had their day in the sun as one of, if not the best factions.

 

We've all grown to accept that Eldar dominate the tabletop. Time for a shake up. I'm sure that the Eldar codex 6 months from now will be just as crazy lol

Instead of being happy with power creep and assuming more will come, leaving low tier armies even further behind, I think we should all be able to agree that reining in the creep is better for the game in the long run, no?

 

People are always excited when their army is broken and boring to play against, but in 6 months when marines are crap again and the people in this thread are moaning about it, I’ll be sure to refer you all back to this post.

[Ishagu]

The Ultras were so strong that I honestly expect something on the level of a 5+ FNP for all Iron Hands units during the Dev doctrine. It would make them very durable, especially the vehicles.

[jeremy1391]

@Kain Mor Without power creep the game stagnates. And whatever was the most powerful before creep sets in would remain the most powerful through an entire edition

[Indefragable]

Also, to bring everything back down to Terra for a moment, I suspect that alot of xenos armies will be getting side-buffs to offset some of these changes to the most populous faction in the game, or at least have massive points drops to compensate for needing to bring more units to stay on the board with all this Astartes killing power.

[Ishagu]

 

@helterskelter

Hey, it's about time Astartes had their day in the sun as one of, if not the best factions.

 

We've all grown to accept that Eldar dominate the tabletop. Time for a shake up. I'm sure that the Eldar codex 6 months from now will be just as crazy lol

Instead of being happy with power creep and assuming more will come, leaving low tier armies even further behind, I think we should all be able to agree that reining in the creep is better for the game in the long run, no?

 

People are always excited when their army is broken and boring to play against, but in 6 months when marines are crap again and the people in this thread are moaning about it, I’ll be sure to refer you all back to this post.

Power creep is great as long as it's gradual. This feels like a leap because the last codex was so weak.

It might only be marginally better than the other top books or on a par

[Marshal Reinhard]

Let's just hope they manage not to buff the xenos too much though or we'll be back where we started

[MARK0SIAN]

Yes that was a sweet read! So if the Tactical Doctrine is active we can fall back and not receive the minus to hit for heavy weapons so the Chapter Tactic gets better.

 

And our Dreads are an assault force again alongside their firepower.

Not quite, it says units that moved but did not fall back or advance so falling back will still give the usual penalties.

[taikishi]

This is getting more than a little absurd with the number of buffs being handed out here.  IMHO all marines REALLY needed to be useful was a survive-ability bump against all the AP... and maybe some minor offensive improvement to bump them into upper tier.  Instead they go the other way and give them insane offensive output to the point that they can realistically table wipe by turn 3.  I don't think this is good or healthy for a game with full round IGYG play.  With all of this for it to be remotely balanced the average marine army will need to be about 25-35 models tops, and even that might be too much.  Aggressors are kinda nuts, all those heavy stubbers marines have been complaining about are now a lot better, as they are ap-2 first round, even basic auto cannons are ap-2 first round, UM gets super-PotMS on everything after turn 1, etc etc...

 

I get why marines are excited (I have a collection of them too) but this just seems to be way way too much, and necessitates similarly crazy increases in other codices.  A little powercreep is to be expected but this isn't power creep... this is a power Tsunami, and I don't think that's good for the health of this game.

 

Don't worry. A Sisters Codex means 9th edition is just around the corner and half of these rules will be scrapped... or the game will be even more broken.

 

*grumbles*

[Lemondish]

@Ishagu kind of my point. These units are weak or downright trash without the special rules afforded by one single special subfaction, but any reduction in points to make them competitive across the board risks making them even more effective for the problem child. Ultras are the codex marine problem child ;)

 

Ultramarines will by far be the most mobile, tactically capable, and downright deadly First Founding Chapter for at least the 6-12 months it'll take to launch the rest of these supplements. Either the costs reflect how deadly they are, or Ultras will continue to be the most powerful first founding Chapter competitively by virtue of being able to do more. Not actually much of a problem unless everyone gets a similarly powerful force multiplier, and we just went over 2 years without that coming close to happening.

 

But I don't really want this to sound negative because it really isn't. Finally Ultras will be living up to their name - power gap between them and everyone else aside (major issue in this edition), this is one of the coolest and strategically powerful concepts marines have access to. The game is definitely won on movement, and this makes movement a constant feature, not a trade off, for Ultramarines. That's super exciting and feels really dynamic.