So how long before GW retires the non-Primaris range?

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

I feel that mixed Primaris/Firstborn armies are the way to go. Fluff-wise, there's precedent, what with the fact that Chapters can have both. If you like Primaris models and you run a custom Chapter, have your Chapter upgrade. If you like both, have them produce Primaris but not have their veterans upgrade. If you like Oldmarines, put them at odds with the Custodes and have them deny the Primaris. That's that. Run the army you want; Firstborn aren't going anywhere, even if they don't get any new releases.

[War Angel]

Is your argument quite literally that Primaris are new, and don’t have 30 years of lore, so that’s whats bad about them?

[Sete]

I did not skirt anything in my opinion.

I do think you are ignoring the new tactical aspect of the Primaris like vanguard, becoming norm when it was the exception previously.

I did address the fact that Intercessors are similar to Tacs, except on their background which in my opinion is the true soul of the miniature. And again I stress that Primaris are lacking on that due to the way they were introduced.

 

As it stands the first wave were full grown marines strangers to the chapters they were assigned to. If you think they were already part of the chapter history,or should be readily accepted I will disagree with you on that. They were strangers. And until dark imperium they would not be accepted anywhere.

It's not my arbitrary view on anything, its previously established lore. Just the return of Guilliman accompanied by eldar would have caused a civil war, no matter the state of the galaxy. If you want to conveniently skip details to justify and accept the somewhat shoehorned presence of primaris in all the chapters with officially no refusals be my guest.

 

Now what I do want with the time skip is just to have all primaris. Like ADB said, when all space marines are primaris there are no primaris just space marines. Since there were no visible conflicts, let's just move forward and focus on their development, and add some proper stories and soul to them. And if some bling kits are released aswell even better.

[Marshal Rohr]

Is your argument quite literally that Primaris are new, and don’t have 30 years of lore, so that’s whats bad about them?

 

I mean... it's not bad the way the rotten food is bad. It is the weakest thing in an otherwise cool release. I dont like the rail systems on the guns, personally, but thats a quick shave. The helmets and shoulders and power packs are all easily interchangeable. Instant cool looking, well proportioned, and fun to paint marines. I'm thinking about cutting down the Bolt Rifle barrel/foregrip to make the new bolt rifle a little more compact. 

[Sete]

Is your argument quite literally that Primaris are new, and don’t have 30 years of lore, so that’s whats bad about them?

Wouldn't be better to have them as an evolution of the current chapters than some random dudes frozen for 10k? Make the transition a bit more natural, and in doing that, focus a bit more on those years after the destruction of cadia, while the chapters produced and reinforced their chapter with new marines using cawl tech? Steaming the tide of chaos bit by bit showing guillimans tactical genius avoiding the annihilation of the imperium and the eventual counter attack? But then again we are going a bit off topic here.

[Marshal Rohr]

Most Primaris are from the chapter they are in now. The Indomitus Crusade ended a century ago and every chapter has been making their own Primaris. Given the fact less than one hundred thousand Primaris formed the Greyshields, its entirely believable that there are very few of Cawl's 10,000 year sleepers left and most chapters wouldn't have any at all. 

[Sete]

Most Primaris are from the chapter they are in now. The Indomitus Crusade ended a century ago and every chapter has been making their own Primaris. Given the fact less than one hundred thousand Primaris formed the Greyshields, its entirely believable that there are very few of Cawl's 10,000 year sleepers left and most chapters wouldn't have any at all.

Which means firstborn should be a rarity by now. Hence my point of fully focusing on primaris and stopping with this arbitrary range separation.

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm not disagreeing with that. But oldmarines exist beyond whatever the current day in the timeline is. The have 200 Years of Great Crusade, 7 Years of Heresy, and 10,000 years of campaigns for me and others to play. So if another Tactical/Devastator/Assault Box never comes out for 40K I can still build my Helsreach army with Heresy pieces and play the campaign with AoD ruleset and 7th Edition Ork codex. 

[Blindhamster]

I like space marines.

 

Especially red ones.

 

But black ones and gold ones are cool too.

[Sete]

My point is purity seals dont fit reivers very well. :D

[Marshal Rohr]

My point is purity seals dont fit reivers very well.

 

You just haven't seen my Reivers yet ;)

[Marshal Reinhard]

I don't have any Reivers.

[Trevak Dal]

Theoretically, tactical squads offer a special and a heavy plus primary anti troop firepower in a manageable foot print.

 

But, since Sternguard are a point more for more leadership, options and attacks (which you should avoid but its nice to have), and devestators are where you concentrate heavy weapons, tacticals are kinda meh in comparison.

 

Primaris are basically "yo dawg I heard you crying about how minimum squad sizes in 30k were 10 guys (mostly), and you guys have been making that ArtScale (because these lil hobits are the true scale in their eyes no doubt) space Marines for a while now so we made some too, also in 30k Special Weapons Squad flavor, with the best Special Weapon of 8th edition. Did I mention they get the statline that Marines should have with the wound they should get, but we are also making a Movie Marines Faction based off of old lore. They're totally not going to steal regular marines' thunder, we promise yo," *wink*.

 

"Hey bro did I mention to you that we will be making a skirmish game? Well...two skirmish games, and we will gradually make it so it becomes Apocalypse Lite again, instead of just letting you be able to take Terminators from the start, since they are near Non Impactful in the standard game but could potentially come into their own in a smaller scale game, but we also let the Movie Marines play too. Have fun dawg,"

[Oxydo]

My point is purity seals dont fit reivers very well.

 

As does certain HH upgrade kits too.

[Trevak Dal]

Realistically, how many OldMarine kits can there be made? Are you guys starving for more space marine infantry with their single wound and a save they more often than not don't get to take and die like guardsmen?

 

Are you still trying to play close combat with space Marines, who the company has pretty much been going like this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HHKVWWJ304c

 

You can do close combat with Marines. But they really don't want you to outside of certain units.

 

They Want to sell you ten of every model set. They want you to make a company, using genuine citidel models, genuine citidel green stuff to completely customize and name each and every individual model, and paint that model in genuine citidel primer, and 3-4 coats of dozens of genuine citidel paints using genuine citidel brushes.

 

Then they want you to get your shins kicked in by some Orks, and sell you some gangbanger fungus monsters. Or maybe Guard. Or maybe Movie Marines and ride dirty on Imperial Jetbikes.

 

New paint to sell along with those models. And you are going to need genuine citidel glue and basing materials. And let's not forget your Knight House. An army of super heavies. Dawg, they totally wouldn't just, yank the rug out from everybody and dismiss entire armies out of existence after rampant expansion. They would NEVER do that to entice people to pick up new armies.

[Sete]

Nevermind,misread! Bit tired.

[Lucerne]

 

The Primaris designs are somewhat soulless and unfitting for a "replacement" for true Astartes- it's like saying Tau are a replacement for the entire Ork line, models, wargear, and fluff...

 

Ideally, they just update tacticals etc to be "Chaos scaled" with all of three kits, change up some details, and then focus on their shiny new range of replacement options.

It wasn't long ago they released three new plastic kits. You can't ask for another with a slight scale difference.

 

 

I believe I can and am because GW's entire history shows it can afford to churn out countless redundant kits for their favored faction, loyalist marines. Three new sprues in between oneoff Primaris Lieutenants wouldn't break the bank.

 

What makes Primaris soulless? What makes the old Tactical kit baroque and gothic, with full of character, while the new Intercessor kit has none?

 

Mismatching armor marks, most namely helmets?

Rivets?

More purity seals?

 

I get the emotional connection to a product via nostalgia, but I am just not seeing the above details as something that creates a large divide. There is also a basis in lore for this: The Primaris are New™ by Imperium standards. How silly would it be if we had mismatch marks of armor or a variety of helmets with Primaris already? They should look fresh-off-the-assembly-line.

 

Not arguing or flaming, but I would love to hear someone's specific thoughts about how the two kits differ, and what about the old kit that they feel is missing int he new range that should have been brought over.

Mismatch is a huge difference that can't be overstated- Primaris are stamped out clone troopers, traditional marines are cobbled together from the Imperium's and the Chapter's entire history. Clone troopers are fine, soulless and interchangeable new blood is fine...until it's blatantly meant to cut the legs out from under fans of the actual Marines. Then it becomes a problem.

 

Rivets are another thing the Primaris lack, along with variant eagle decorations, meaningful shoulderpad variants, honor badges on belts, leg decorations, variant torsos...

 

In other words, they don't lack any detail except for all the detail they lack. Even the HH Mk IV kit was infinitely better than the Intercessors on this principle. In an era where individuality is a huge thing for new kits- if anything the new CSM kit goes slightly overboard- why is the Poochy-tier replacement basic troop kit so uninspired and interchangeable in terms of sculpts?

 

And in the interest of fairness, I'm not even touching the wargear issue.

 

Fundamentally though the main issue is that Primaris Intercessors manage to both be completely interchangeable sculpts and obviously defective as a replacement for the traditional Marine designs- they're adequate as "intercessors" but shouldn't exist if they're meant to be the new not-Tacticals.Visually, if you've seen one Intercessor's design you've seen them all, while Marines have a rich tapestry of looks to draw from.

[SickSix]

Can we PLEASE stop grasping at Horus Heresy products as proof that small Marines will continue to live on? It's a completely separate game and timeline.

 

Don't know if you realise this but I can't just play my MkVII Silver Skulls in Horus Heresy games. That's not how this works.

 

With that out of the way... I don't think anyone here has been swayed to the opposing side. Until more releases come out or don't come out, I think we may have beat this horse enough for now.

[Robbienw]

Can we PLEASE stop grasping at Horus Heresy products as proof that small Marines will continue to live on?

No :)

 

They are the same size and fit as 40k classic marines and generally can be used as such. They may be used in a different game, but the models are of the same type.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

Can we PLEASE stop grasping at Horus Heresy products as proof that small Marines will continue to live on? It's a completely separate game and timeline.

 

Don't know if you realise this but I can't just play my MkVII Silver Skulls in Horus Heresy games. That's not how this works.

 

With that out of the way... I don't think anyone here has been swayed to the opposing side. Until more releases come out or don't come out, I think we may have beat this horse enough for now.

The point wasn't that Horus Heresy was a good place to play Firstborn. They'll almost definitely continue making Firstborn rules for 40k until 40k dies as a hobby. New Firstborn releases will, at worst, be relegated to Horus Heresy releases, which... isn't a bad thing, necessarily. Horus Heresy models are great.

[betrayer41]

I really wish that would have just been like so...um......here’s a new mark of armor MKX and also were just re scaling the range ‍♂ I know Chaos aren't physically as primaris big but everyone seemed to love that approach other than DV the chaos is new(updated) armor and theyre bigger.

[Robbienw]

Realistically, how many OldMarine kits can there be made?

Several. There are several key kits which missed out on the modern update the marine line was getting before they switched to Primaris.

 

These kits are Codex Terminators (standard and assault), Scouts (standard and sniper), and Codex bikes.

 

Technically the standard terminators did get an update with the space marine heroes terminators, but it’s not quite the same and there should be a more generic standard box with options.

 

Added to that there should have been stuff never done in plastic before, namely a plastic techmarine, thunderfire cannon and servitor’s.

 

This is one things about Primaris that annoyed me the most, it stopped the modern update to normal marines in its tracks.

 

Additionally, there was still scope for more plastic marine stuff like a plastic Honour Guard set and plastic Tactical squad outfitted with breaching gear.

 

And lastly, although this is more of a 30k thing, they still need to do plastic mk2, mk5 and mk6 for that.

[Robbienw]

I really wish that would have just been like so...um......here’s a new mark of armor MKX and also were just re scaling the range ‍♂ I know Chaos aren't physically as primaris big but everyone seemed to love that approach other than DV the chaos is new(updated) armor and theyre bigger.

Bigger chaos marines actually began in 2012 with the chosen squad in the Dark Venageance box set. Just at the time no one noticed they were bigger.

[SickSix]

 

 

Can we PLEASE stop grasping at Horus Heresy products as proof that small Marines will continue to live on? It's a completely separate game and timeline.

 

Don't know if you realise this but I can't just play my MkVII Silver Skulls in Horus Heresy games. That's not how this works.

 

With that out of the way... I don't think anyone here has been swayed to the opposing side. Until more releases come out or don't come out, I think we may have beat this horse enough for now.

The point wasn't that Horus Heresy was a good place to play Firstborn. They'll almost definitely continue making Firstborn rules for 40k until 40k dies as a hobby. New Firstborn releases will, at worst, be relegated to Horus Heresy releases, which... isn't a bad thing, necessarily. Horus Heresy models are great.

Okay and that's why I think this thread needs to be locked. Becuase I think if you really believe GW is going to keep updating rules for Firstborn for the next 20 years I think you are delusional. In 2035 they might say 'yes the Space Marine index units from 2024 are still valid but you may find their index rules are not optimal and we aren't updating them. But feel free to use them in a narrative or open game.'

 

That would be how they continue to exist.

[betrayer41]

 

I really wish that would have just been like so...um......here’s a new mark of armor MKX and also were just re scaling the range ‍♂ I know Chaos aren't physically as primaris big but everyone seemed to love that approach other than Dark Vengeance  the chaos is new(updated) armor and theyre bigger.

Bigger chaos marines actually began in 2012 with the chosen squad in the Dark Venageance box set. Just at the time no one noticed they were bigger.

 

Thats what i meant by other than DV....ill change that to dark vengeance