So how long before GW retires the non-Primaris range?

[Captain Idaho]

 

I'd rather have loyalist renegade than nothing at all. It's not dumb. It's inclusive rather than forcing folk into separate games.

I'd rather they keep both space marines and primaris as options to imperium. Maybe make them two codexes that can be used in the same detachment as they're both space marines. Whatever but it would be better. I can use my new primaris stuff, or my classic stuff or a mix if I want that way.

Which is what they have right now. Yay!

Problem is, you'd rather an option that won't be available for long.

 

So if it's a choice between phased out Classic Marines and playing them in a separate game, or relevant loyalist renagades?

 

***

 

Not that I don't agree with you. I want the same - relevant Classic Marines with updated rules and Codex entries. (Gods forbid we get new models eh)

[m0nolith]

I really see a staggering amount of echo chambering in this thread.

Some people are so fundamentally certain that that regular marines are going away that they cant even imagine themselves being wrong.

 

Look how many people here have stated that they like, prefer and will keep on buying regular marines.

If you like and prefer Primaris, cool, just don't let your personal preference for them cloud your understanding of the fact that there are many who prefer regular marines.

If there's a market for it, GW will exploit it. You guys realize how many years it takes for a model to go from concept to store shelf?

And if you think that all those naysayers will simply change their minds and take up Primaris hook line and sinker eventually, then you're delusional.

GW will eventually cater to this regular marine market (they actually have been with the Heroes series and the Limited ed models), but it'll take a while for a full release because of the slow speed of the plastic model business.

 

There's also a staggering amount of conjunction fallacy here, constantly being spewed by a half dozen forum members that you cant have a decent logical discussion with about this subject because of their unyielding biases.

[SickSix]

I've been bored of "everything is Chaos" in GW games for a while.

 

Why do renegades have to be against the Imperium? Why can't they fight for human worlds? Why can't we have a bit of nuance instead of good guys vs bad guys?

That is something that has bothered me as well. In a universe with ZERO 'good guy's we can't have any grey areas?

[Sete]

Just do it like I do.

I dont trust GW to keep updating Firstborne, so I dont buy them, and since primaris still dont have enough range to make me interested I dont buy them.

I win (save some monies) GW loses my monies.

Basically the hobby for me in the last year has been dropping into B&C and checking the discussions you fine gentlemen are having ;)

Edited July 24, 2019 by Sete

[m0nolith]

 

I really see a staggering amount of echo chambering in this thread.

Some people are so fundamentally certain that that regular marines are going away that they cant even imagine themselves being wrong.

 

Look how many people here have stated that they like, prefer and will keep on buying regular marines.

If you like and prefer Primaris, cool, just don't let your personal preference for them cloud your understanding of the fact that there are many who prefer regular marines.

If there's a market for it, GW will exploit it. You guys realize how many years it takes for a model to go from concept to store shelf?

And if you think that all those naysayers will simply change their minds and take up Primaris hook line and sinker eventually, then you're delusional.

GW will eventually cater to this regular marine market (they actually have been with the Heroes series and the Limited ed models), but it'll take a while for a full release because of the slow speed of the plastic model business.

 

There's also a staggering amount of conjunction fallacy here, constantly being spewed by a half dozen forum members that you cant have a decent logical discussion with about this subject because of their unyielding biases.

This applies to both sides really.

 

But not to the same extent.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

I do like the idea of SOME Firstborn Renegades from SOME Chapters. I also know that some people have been thinking that maybe Cawl's gonna pull an Order 66 thing and take over. I will say that regardless of what happens, I've got a solid plan; if either of those scenarios happen, my Chapter will remain mixed, and side with whichever side the majority of the Primaris are on. Primaris integrated so thoroughly with the Crimson Knights that there's no distinction any longer; in fact, Firstborn of the Crimson Knights regularly get treated to become Primaris.

[Sete]

 

 

 

I really see a staggering amount of echo chambering in this thread.

Some people are so fundamentally certain that that regular marines are going away that they cant even imagine themselves being wrong.

 

Look how many people here have stated that they like, prefer and will keep on buying regular marines.

If you like and prefer Primaris, cool, just don't let your personal preference for them cloud your understanding of the fact that there are many who prefer regular marines.

If there's a market for it, GW will exploit it. You guys realize how many years it takes for a model to go from concept to store shelf?

And if you think that all those naysayers will simply change their minds and take up Primaris hook line and sinker eventually, then you're delusional.

GW will eventually cater to this regular marine market (they actually have been with the Heroes series and the Limited ed models), but it'll take a while for a full release because of the slow speed of the plastic model business.

 

There's also a staggering amount of conjunction fallacy here, constantly being spewed by a half dozen forum members that you cant have a decent logical discussion with about this subject because of their unyielding biases.

This applies to both sides really.

But not to the same extent.

I disagree.

 

(Deleted the post, because the quote went weird, and I cant be bothered really.)

 

I do understand both sides, hence why I'm not trying to get into prolonged discussions about it.

It's a shame that Primaris got introduced, but they are here and are a thing.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Sete

[Blindhamster]

I really see a staggering amount of echo chambering in this thread.

Some people are so fundamentally certain that that regular marines are going away that they cant even imagine themselves being wrong.

 

Look how many people here have stated that they like, prefer and will keep on buying regular marines.

If you like and prefer Primaris, cool, just don't let your personal preference for them cloud your understanding of the fact that there are many who prefer regular marines.

If there's a market for it, GW will exploit it. You guys realize how many years it takes for a model to go from concept to store shelf?

And if you think that all those naysayers will simply change their minds and take up Primaris hook line and sinker eventually, then you're delusional.

GW will eventually cater to this regular marine market (they actually have been with the Heroes series and the Limited ed models), but it'll take a while for a full release because of the slow speed of the plastic model business.

 

There's also a staggering amount of conjunction fallacy here, constantly being spewed by a half dozen forum members that you cant have a decent logical discussion with about this subject because of their unyielding biases.

Thing is, I don't think all that many people that like primaris particularly think classic marines are going anywhere. In fact a lot of the concern that they are tends to come from people that don't like primaris.

 

Ideally the people that like primaris need to not look down on people that don't.

Ideally the people that don't like primaris need to not look down on people that do.

 

What will come, will come. Could be we see new classic marine stuff in the next year or two, could be we don't. I don't buy classic marine stuff anymore because I literally have zero need to... I have hundreds of them already. Equally, people that don't like primaris, wont buy them and that's fine too.

 

Lets not argue or make assertions that one group of people (there really aren't sides) is wrong or right.

 

Right now you can use either type, there isn't much need for new classic marine models outside of scouts and terminators. Maybe we will see those, maybe we wont. Primaris need more stuff because GW have clearly included primaris only chapters in the lore. But you can run classic only, primaris only or a mix and all are totally fine and totally valid to individual preferences.

 

 

Go team Space Marines!

[Marshal Rohr]

There are four armor marks missing in the Heresy that need to be addressed in plastic, and only one to cover all the armor used by most everyone. Five would be great because it’s such a brutal look, six would be cool, and seven wasn’t widespread so if it never shows up it never shows up and it’s not a big deal. You don’t need new units, you just need the boxes and everything else is gravy. Something like a jump pack upgrade kit in resin would be easy enough, they’ve got the molds for those and assault arms. It’s really just addressing those gaps in easily attainable marks (mark 2 is no longer an option for example) and you’ve got everything you need for oldmarines. I wouldn’t say no to new indomitus/cat/tartaros scales like the new chaos terminators but I already spend considerable time extending my marines legs anyway so I can keep doing that.

 

As for old marine vehicles they are used in both eras and everyone loves sicarans, contemptors, and leviathans. Those would just be icing on the cake really.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Lemondish]

Okay, putting it a different way - do you want your firstborn/classic marines to become a new branch of villains? That's pretty much the only way such a storyline happens, they go renegade.

 

 

Nobody is good in 40k. They are all villains.

[Blindhamster]

 

Okay, putting it a different way - do you want your firstborn/classic marines to become a new branch of villains? That's pretty much the only way such a storyline happens, they go renegade.

 

 

Nobody is good in 40k. They are all villains.

Fair point!

[SickSix]

Yes. I stalwartly believe Firsborn are doomed. I would be happy to be proven wrong with new releases for them. I am still super Salty that we didn't get an updated Indomitus Terminator armor kit before the change over.

 

I read all the tea leaves one way and others read them differently or not at all.

 

I think one of the biggest and most obvious signs that GW don't want to continue selling the old model line is that Primaris can't fit in ANY classic SM vehicle besides a Thunderhawk. I mean there is quite literally no reason they can't fit in a Land Raider that fits 5 or more Terminators.

[undivided_apostle]

I do not think they will retire classic marines. I think they will let the line rest for a few years and rescale them. Once they do it will look better to run mixed units. I do not think GW anticipated how prevalent pure primaris and pure classic lists would be.

[m0nolith]

 

I really see a staggering amount of echo chambering in this thread.

Some people are so fundamentally certain that that regular marines are going away that they cant even imagine themselves being wrong.

 

Look how many people here have stated that they like, prefer and will keep on buying regular marines.

If you like and prefer Primaris, cool, just don't let your personal preference for them cloud your understanding of the fact that there are many who prefer regular marines.

If there's a market for it, GW will exploit it. You guys realize how many years it takes for a model to go from concept to store shelf?

And if you think that all those naysayers will simply change their minds and take up Primaris hook line and sinker eventually, then you're delusional.

GW will eventually cater to this regular marine market (they actually have been with the Heroes series and the Limited ed models), but it'll take a while for a full release because of the slow speed of the plastic model business.

 

There's also a staggering amount of conjunction fallacy here, constantly being spewed by a half dozen forum members that you cant have a decent logical discussion with about this subject because of their unyielding biases.

Thing is, I don't think all that many people that like primaris particularly think classic marines are going anywhere. In fact a lot of the concern that they are tends to come from people that don't like primaris.

 

Ideally the people that like primaris need to not look down on people that don't.

Ideally the people that don't like primaris need to not look down on people that do.

 

What will come, will come. Could be we see new classic marine stuff in the next year or two, could be we don't. I don't buy classic marine stuff anymore because I literally have zero need to... I have hundreds of them already. Equally, people that don't like primaris, wont buy them and that's fine too.

 

Lets not argue or make assertions that one group of people (there really aren't sides) is wrong or right.

 

Right now you can use either type, there isn't much need for new classic marine models outside of scouts and terminators. Maybe we will see those, maybe we wont. Primaris need more stuff because GW have clearly included primaris only chapters in the lore. But you can run classic only, primaris only or a mix and all are totally fine and totally valid to individual preferences.

 

 

Go team Space Marines!

 

I agree with almost everything you said, the only thing I dont agree with is the idea that pro regular marine players are the ones that are worried about them dying out.

I do agree with the idea that most pro Primaris players dont think Firstborn will go away, its only a half dozen or so forum members here that keep repeating that idea ad nauseam.

 

We really don't know what will happen for sure, but some people seem to revel in the idea of regular marines going away, unable to imagine that some people (who also spend money on the game) dont think as they do.

 

Primaris are being pushed right now because the range isn't complete, so of course they're going to promote it.

When regular marines in MkIX come out, there's going to be a lot of people eating crow.

 

I like Primaris, I like regular, but the idea that GW will retire a entire plastic mold range when their is a market out there that will keep buying it is laughable.

 

I think one of the biggest and most obvious signs that GW don't want to continue selling the old model line is that Primaris can't fit in ANY classic SM vehicle besides a Thunderhawk. I mean there is quite literally no reason they can't fit in a Land Raider that fits 5 or more Terminators.

So you're forced to buy Repulsors...

Its really that simple.

 

They have a new range, they want you to spend money on that range. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by m0nolith

[Panzer]

I've been bored of "everything is Chaos" in GW games for a while.

 

Why do renegades have to be against the Imperium? Why can't they fight for human worlds? Why can't we have a bit of nuance instead of good guys vs bad guys?

 

We do have those Renegades. Knights of Blood and Celestial Lions for example. However those are extremely rare and fit in as random successor chapter for a Codex of your choice and don't need their separate stuff.

[Marshal Rohr]

Celestial Lions aren’t renegade...

[Marshal Reinhard]

It isn't a binary issue, there's more options than "they'll be squatted" or "they'll be given new kits galore". Things simply continuing like they have is by far the likliest option if you ask me, people awaiting some big change or announcement are likely to be disappointed.

 

I also feel, despite the obvious fact that Primaris have the P-word in front of their name, GW don't actually separate the two like different factions like people here are want to do. That's just me though.

[Boldthreat]

Man I hope they do a Horus heresy type age of darkness release. I love the Primaris range and plan to continue supporting it. But I would also love updated Indomitus Terminators and mk 5, 6, 7 and 8 marines. I’d support it too. Heck I’d want that more than the Heresy stuff. That will always be my view of space marines.

 

My only contention with the whole Primaris vs Generation 1 Astartes is the feasibility of them coexisting in loyal chapters after 150 years. If we are going to progress 40k into the future then let’s do it. Kill some old characters, retire some old characters. Stick some in new Redemptors. Don’t progress it then double back with the same stuff. I hope we go another 50 to a hundred years.

 

What I would really like. Is a Space Marine relic upgrade kit. Banded shin guard and extra variants that ape mark 6b ect. Modified helmets and bolt guns. Plasma guns that look reverse engineered to fit hellblasters. Just things that you can sprinkle in to the Primaris to add a bit of history to them. How cool would it be to have a Rubicon Primaris squad... 5 man squad with 3 bolt rifles and 2 plasma incenerators. But the bolt rifles are modified Godwin boltguns or older and the incinerators are modified plasma guns or cannons of old. There armor looks like repurposed relics. Sprinkle in Age of Darkness type special rules and there you go. Let’s do more than just come out with an updated Calgar.

 

Would stuff like this not help the transition? I think much of the pushback against the Primaris is this unrealistic idea that generation 1 marines are being dishonored or disrespected. They aren’t. What’s not working is saying you can still use your outdated miniatures next to the new amazing looking ones and here is a tacked on fluff burb to justify it. No. Time has passed and war is everywhere. It’s ok that marines died and were replaced by Primaris. A evolution occurred. Embrace the evolution but honor the past too. Give us Veteran rubicon Primaris.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Eh. I am a Firstborn only player, and I'm fairly certain they will get indexed in 40K. It's much more likely that Firstborn will get shifted to 30K over time while 40K becomes the domain of Primaris. I don't like it, but that is the vibe I'm getting. If they intended for both ranges to stick around in the long term they wouldn't have A, made Primaris better in every way with no downsides at all, and B, made it possible to turn Firstborn into Primaris. The latter fact is the most damning, as it gives them a convenient way to drag what lore and characters they want forward into the new range without having to develop new characters. For example, they don't have to commit to something like Marnius dying and the Ultra Marines moving on into a brave new world if they can just convert him.

 

If Primaris continue to exist as Super Marines with no appreciable down side, and every named character can be converted over to the new range, there is no In Universe reason for Firstborn to continue existing. And so there will be a stretch of time in which both continue on side by side while the Firstborn shrink, then they will vanish into the past. And due to 30K existing, GW will assume that all the Firstborn fanboys have a place to go, so nothing lost.

 

The question isn't if they will get indexed. The ground work is laid too distinctly at this point to avoid the fact that they will. The question is when, and how respectful will the sendoff be? I don't think there will be an Order 66. there's no reason to. Just wait two hundred more years and the vast majority of marines should be converted. Every new marine goign forward should be Primaris, there's no reason not to. A good number of marines will convert themselves in order to better serve. And I don't think GW has the stones to pull any sort of civil war plot to artificially keep Firstborn around. Unless more flaws are introduced into the Primaris process, or some major plot reason is invented specifically to stop the conversion, this will happen.

 

I'd estimate Firstborn might have one more edition left in them, charitably. In fact, the way GW operates there might be a big event at the end of 8th that has a huge number of Firstborn sacrificing themselves to stop X happening, which artificially speeds up the process for 9th. Either way, if Firstborn don't get good rules by the end of 8th, I'm trading in my fairly substantial Firstborn Templar army for credit at my LGS and starting my Snake-Eyes WAAAGH! I've already started work on a Khorne Daemons army. There isn't much left for me in the future of Marines, but other ranges might get some respect, and new GW isn't an awful company overall.

[Panzer]

Celestial Lions aren’t renegade...

 

Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. It changes with the sources lol

[Marshal Rohr]

The Gold and Blue chapter?

[Robbienw]

Man I hope they do a Horus heresy type age of darkness release. I love the Primaris range and plan to continue supporting it. But I would also love updated Indomitus Terminators and mk 5, 6, 7 and 8 marines. I’d support it too. Heck I’d want that more than the Heresy stuff. That will always be my view of space marines.

 

My only contention with the whole Primaris vs Generation 1 Astartes is the feasibility of them coexisting in loyal chapters after 150 years. If we are going to progress 40k into the future then let’s do it. Kill some old characters, retire some old characters. Stick some in new Redemptors. Don’t progress it then double back with the same stuff. I hope we go another 50 to a hundred years.

 

What I would really like. Is a Space Marine relic upgrade kit. Banded shin guard and extra variants that ape mark 6b ect. Modified helmets and bolt guns. Plasma guns that look reverse engineered to fit hellblasters. Just things that you can sprinkle in to the Primaris to add a bit of history to them. How cool would it be to have a Rubicon Primaris squad... 5 man squad with 3 bolt rifles and 2 plasma incenerators. But the bolt rifles are modified Godwin boltguns or older and the incinerators are modified plasma guns or cannons of old. There armor looks like repurposed relics. Sprinkle in Age of Darkness type special rules and there you go. Let’s do more than just come out with an updated Calgar.

 

Would stuff like this not help the transition? I think much of the pushback against the Primaris is this unrealistic idea that generation 1 marines are being dishonored or disrespected. They aren’t. What’s not working is saying you can still use your outdated miniatures next to the new amazing looking ones and here is a tacked on fluff burb to justify it.

As if my updated marine models that came out 2 to 4 years before Primaris actually look outdated next to them. It’s a matter of opinion as to what looks amazing and doesn’t let’s not forget. The size and height difference can be jarring, but that doesn’t speak to the quality of the models, more to individual preferences.

 

Plus I think there might be a lot of people out there who actually don’t mind mixing them. Anecdotal evidence for sure, but I see a lot of people under the hashtags I follow on Instagram doing mixed armies and painting both types of marine.

[Winds Of Fury]

As long as THESE are available I'm under the impression that regular marines will be around for some time.

[Boldthreat]

 

Man I hope they do a Horus heresy type age of darkness release. I love the Primaris range and plan to continue supporting it. But I would also love updated Indomitus Terminators and mk 5, 6, 7 and 8 marines. I’d support it too. Heck I’d want that more than the Heresy stuff. That will always be my view of space marines.

 

My only contention with the whole Primaris vs Generation 1 Astartes is the feasibility of them coexisting in loyal chapters after 150 years. If we are going to progress 40k into the future then let’s do it. Kill some old characters, retire some old characters. Stick some in new Redemptors. Don’t progress it then double back with the same stuff. I hope we go another 50 to a hundred years.

 

What I would really like. Is a Space Marine relic upgrade kit. Banded shin guard and extra variants that ape mark 6b ect. Modified helmets and bolt guns. Plasma guns that look reverse engineered to fit hellblasters. Just things that you can sprinkle in to the Primaris to add a bit of history to them. How cool would it be to have a Rubicon Primaris squad... 5 man squad with 3 bolt rifles and 2 plasma incenerators. But the bolt rifles are modified Godwin boltguns or older and the incinerators are modified plasma guns or cannons of old. There armor looks like repurposed relics. Sprinkle in Age of Darkness type special rules and there you go. Let’s do more than just come out with an updated Calgar.

 

Would stuff like this not help the transition? I think much of the pushback against the Primaris is this unrealistic idea that generation 1 marines are being dishonored or disrespected. They aren’t. What’s not working is saying you can still use your outdated miniatures next to the new amazing looking ones and here is a tacked on fluff burb to justify it.

As if my updated marine models that came out 2 to 4 years before Primaris actually look outdated next to them. It’s a matter of opinion as to what looks amazing and doesn’t let’s not forget. The size and height difference can be jarring, but that doesn’t speak to the quality of the models, more to individual preferences.

 

Plus I think there might be a lot of people out there who actually don’t mind mixing them. Anecdotal evidence for sure, but I see a lot of people under the hashtags I follow on Instagram doing mixed armies and painting both types of marine.

I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, if you like them cool. But from my experience it’s not the case. This is anecdotal for sure... but I have 5 kids. 4 boys and a girl. They all love warhammer and miniature war gaming. I broke out my old battletech stuff, I broke out my old Black Templar army from 4th edition. They were stoked to get into 40k more so than btech. And I was stoked to take the plunge with them. None of them want the older space marine miniatures. To you and me, they may be ok. But it’s 5 against 1 in my house. And 1 of those boys just started the new chaos marines. Because he likes the bad guys lol. But he only likes the new chaos marines. So it’s not a Primaris thing. It’s a model thing.

 

As a gamer, with ocd, I want my stuff to be consistent. Mixing older squads with Primaris squads just doesn’t work for me. I also won’t invest my money into the old stuff because the new stuff is a better quality. As a parent supporting 5 kids getting their first armies, I’m not going to buy them miniatures they don’t like the look of. Right now they couldnt care a less about the story. It’s all visuals and the older stuff is not cutting it for them at all. Death Guard are. Black Legion are. Primaris are. Even the new SOB stuff has them stoked. Even though I think Terminators look better than Aggressors... guess how many terminators I bought my kids? Yup zero. Cause they look at terminators and Aggressors and choose the Aggressors. But I garuntee you they come out with Primaris Terminators... they will want them. Because visually they will fit in.

 

Maybe it’s my perspective. I’m raising the next generation of Miniature gamers in my home and I’m seeing what’s working and what’s not. What catches a 6 to 13 year old kids eyes. The only thing the old kits have going for me is Nastolgia. That’s it. And I’m not spending more money on that.

 

But you release an updated legacy Astartes line. With space marines of the same quality as SOB in the pre Dark Imperium setting. Oh I’ll buy that. I bet my kids would too. I might even start mixing them with Primaris then... nah... that’s ridiculous... Gen 1s are extinct in my chapter.

[bolvar]

Some of you guys talk about "renegade classic marines" in a hypotetical civil war between primaris and classic elements inside the chapters

 

Why not the other way? renegade/cawl-mind controlled primaris, acting against the chapters that they have been sent? Because if one side should be more prone to rebel, it should be the new guys who appeared out of nowhere, specially being a mix of pre and heresy era and new recruits, instead of the ones that have been kicking for 10 millenia.

 

That way, you keep the classic marines as the old, loyal ones and the primaris can go two routes: either prove themselves that they're truly loyal, or go the renegade route. Instead of demonizing the old chaps