jester_prince Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Firstborn aren't going anywhere. You only have to look at the sheer number of 20+ year old kits from other factions that still sell and haven't been updated, without a "replacement" being introduced. They might lose shelf space to new Primaris kits, and some of the less popular kits will probably go to online only eventually. But I doubt GW is going to flat out discontinue them. The only reason the fantasy stuff was discontinued is because the entire game system was killed. As long as 40k exists you'll still be able to get original Marines, even if there's little practical reason to play them. I think they will, once GW has decided the Primaris line is a sufficient size to stand on its own we might start seeing the less popular kits become online only, more and more each year. Though Tac squads might stick around for another 10+ years as online only. They will likely choose to index the rules for them at this time too and remove them from the main codex. The molds they cast them in doesn't have an infinite shelf life (methods may have improved and got cheaper since I spoke to one of the "experts" at warhammer world some 10 years ago) and are very expensive to re-machine (if i remember correctly its in the 10s of thousands of pounds for some kits just to produce the mold, not including labor, design ect), and while I can't imagine there is alot of wear and tear on plastic production, we have seen reduced quality, misalignment, extra flash on older kits ect. They have also re-done the tactical squad sprues several times since I started in the hobby. This might be an indication of wear rate, as the reason for this that may be they had to replace the mold so used it as an opportunity to refresh elements. There must be a point where they retire them and just wont bother to replace them. Especially with high production numbers like tac squads. Xenos plastic sprues probably have a longer shelf life simply because they don't cast nearly as many as the ever popular Tac marines and can keep those units in production far longer without issue. Tactical squads days are numbered, it might not be for another 10+ years but there will come a day when not enough people want them over primaris that keeping up production is valid or that they simply cannot produce any more and the cost to re-manufacture the mold is cost prohibitive vs the demand. On the other hand HH stuff is its own thing now and they may elect to reproduce the other marks of armor forever, to support that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5351845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 An indeterminate amount of time that will be ultimately unsatisfactory to both proponents and detractors of the inevitable march of Primaris progress. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5351882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 I could be wrong but I think we are forgetting a primary (pun intended) force behind GW remarketing of Warhammer Fantasy battles and Space Marines. Intellectual Property Rights Space Marines can't be protected as an exclusive GW named product. Id I'm not mistaken that is a large part of what has led the new Marine model line being simply an update of new sculpts, to a renamed line of science fiction super soldiers called Primaris. I don't pretend to have too much insight to the situation but given many other indicators Primaris seems to be the future and Firstborn eventually successors to the Brettonians. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5351902 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Tbh I don’t think GW will ever completely drop the first born. They have a lot of major work to do bringing non codex chapters such as Blood Angels in line and I don’t think they will 1/2 arse it either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5351906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Except that argument falls apart when you consider that Space Marines already have a unique, IP-defensible name: Adeptus Astartes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5351907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Tbh I don’t think GW will ever completely drop the first born. They have a lot of major work to do bringing non codex chapters such as Blood Angels in line and I don’t think they will 1/2 arse it either.I was flippant and dismissive with my response earlier, but this is my read as well. In any case, their design continues with the Chaos refresh. Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels (alongside Deathwatch and Grey Knights) all rely heavily on unique Astartes only units to form the core of their identity. If we're to ever see Primaris fully replace Firstborn, it will need to include new Primaris versions of those units. Which I tend to think is unlikely to happen anytime soon, if at all. Don't get me wrong - I'd love some Primaris Sternguard, Death Company, Thunderwolf, or Ravenwing... But I fear this isn't going to happen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5351913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
templargdt Posted July 24, 2019 Author Share Posted July 24, 2019 It's almost too obvious to say that Primaris units are going to replace certain units/classes of units in the SM range; we already have 'Veteran Intercessors' as an option to the current Intercessor kit that is functionally similar to Sternguard. They are putting out rules to again boost the kit sales, but once Intercessors have hit their target sales will we see more blinged out intercessors as "Veteran Intercessors"? You bet you will! And they'll be 70 bucks instead of 60.I was reading GW's site today to see Geoff Robinson's memorial write up and saw that GW is indeed phasing out some Age of Sigmar model kits as they update the AoS codexes https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/07/20/the-warhammer-age-of-sigmar-open-day-2019-live-bloggw-homepage-post-1/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5351920 Share on other sites More sharing options...
templargdt Posted July 24, 2019 Author Share Posted July 24, 2019 "The arrival of Cities of Sigmar does mean a handful of Order units will be leaving the range and becoming Warhammer Legends later this year. We’ll be providing a full list of which ones closer to the time."Having read the thread, I think at the very least the units will be removed and made "Warhammer Legends" as the molds wear out; rules as a PDF on the website or an Index I would guess. But there are also inventory costs to consider; inventory is an expense and if it can be removed as a cost center they certainly will. When was the last time you saw someone drop say, a Land Speeder Storm on the table? Is that kit even carried in most stores? It isn't in my FLGS, or the TFC. Probably others as well if I checked. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5351926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SickSix Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels (alongside Deathwatch and Grey Knights) all rely heavily on unique Astartes only units to form the core of their identity. If we're to ever see Primaris fully replace Firstborn, it will need to include new Primaris versions of those units. Which I tend to think is unlikely to happen anytime soon, if at all. Don't get me wrong - I'd love some Primaris Sternguard, Death Company, Thunderwolf, or Ravenwing... But I fear this isn't going to happen. Yeah, the keep reiterating that the Primaris process basically wipes out gene-mutation. So that basically get's rid of Wulfen and Death Company. My cynical side is telling me that GW is going to streamline all Astartes armies to only diverge via strategems and chapter tactics and a sprinkling of characters. But it's still early. We may yet see Primaris Deathwing (in gravis armor?) and Primaris Long Fangs. But that leads to model line bloat again and I personally don't think GW want to go down that road again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5351928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 I have been avoiding old marines like the plague since I heard about Primaris for 8th ed for a second army. Primaris will get 1:1 replacements of old marine units at some point along with legion style inspired units. Ideally old marines become their own faction again with Primaris with a separate codex. Would love to see more plastic HH old marine stuff for 40k use. RG revising the codex could see their re-introduction, just at the chapter numbers level, fewer units etc. Thats the dream, but I see old marines getting squatted at some point unfortunately outside of historical type settings like HH, scouring, pre 13th Black crusade etc. If I was doing loyalists it would be Primaris to future proof my collection. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5351934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithrilForge Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 When was the last time we saw First Born marines in a battle report in White Dwarf?... when was the last New model for First Born released?... they will slowly fade into the background as more fluff is written etc etc...they'll go to online only and then... Primaris will be thought of as Standard Space marines... "Hey!, what are those small models?.." oh they used to be the Space marines"... "haha don't they look small now " ... "I have some of them laying around here somewhere?!"... Mithril Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5351980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
D3L Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Technically from a production and sales stand point they already have Try restocking a firstborn box or sprue, go ahead At the moment they are just GW webstore exclusives without the tag "webstore exclusive". Bar the preexisting stock in the wild, no store will recieve further resupply. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5352015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalwolf Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Step 1. Phase out old marines for primaris Step 2. Step 3. Re-introduce up scaled old marines and rebrand as firstborn 10 years down the line Step 4. Double profit?! I'd certainly buy firstborn if they were executed in the new scale, specially older marks of armour. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5352016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viridia Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 I personally feel if we ever lose the legacy models that GW might explore bringing them back in a style similar to the Deathwatch release. I.e. bigger than current size, still smaller than Primaris, but completely updated, maybe updating the appearance depending on if there's any changes they want to make at the time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5352018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 when was the last New model for First Born released?... The Raldoron model from FW a few weeks ago. If you're not counting FW 30K stuff cause reasons, then the worldwide release of space marine heroes series 1 tactical squad last year. Series 2 terminators will be released worldwide in early september. There is also the event Librarian Terminator model which is coming out in 2020. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5352020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Technically from a production and sales stand point they already have Try restocking a firstborn box or sprue, go ahead At the moment they are just GW webstore exclusives without the tag "webstore exclusive". Bar the preexisting stock in the wild, no store will recieve further resupply. No idea where you are located, but this is not the case in the UK. GW stores and independants here re-stock regularly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5352022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 when was the last New model for First Born released?... The Raldoron model from FW a few weeks ago. If you're not counting FW 30K stuff cause reasons, then the worldwide release of space marine heroes series 1 tactical squad last year. Series 2 terminators will be released worldwide in early september. There is also the event Librarian Terminator model which is coming out in 2020. ;) Whilst I don't think firstborn are going anywhere any time soon. The reason you don't include heresy stuff is because it's a totally different game, done by a different (subsidiary) company. The blind bags barely count either because they really aren't new kits in the sense that GW made them, weren't they designed and sculpted by a partner and just have the GW branding? I wouldn't buy another proper firstborn release, but if one came out, I wouldn't be unhappy either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5352025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 @Robbiew that's dangerously close to grasping at straws. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5352028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 When was the last time we saw First Born marines in a battle report in White Dwarf?... when was the last New model for First Born released?... I was particularly jaded by the July White Dwarf showcasing a great Blood Ravens army which had some phenomenal work evident from the main spread, yet the advice on how to achieve certain results was focussed on the tired old Intercessors, Hellblasters and other Primaris choices. I wanted to see them talk about the Predator conversion with the Hurricane Bolters for a start! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5352032 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 when was the last New model for First Born released?... The Raldoron model from FW a few weeks ago. If you're not counting FW 30K stuff cause reasons, then the worldwide release of space marine heroes series 1 tactical squad last year. Series 2 terminators will be released worldwide in early september. There is also the event Librarian Terminator model which is coming out in 2020. The blind bags barely count either because they really aren't new kits in the sense that GW made them, weren't they designed and sculpted by a partner and just have the GW branding? No course they are designed and sculpted by the studio, you are not serious surely? They have the features of a studio design, they even have parts they are digitally ported in from previous SM kits. I know for a fact that Maxime Corbeil sculpted the terminator standard bearer for example, he was posting on instagram about it. Its actually really interesting to follow the studio sculptors and painters on instagram, you learn a lot about who does specific stuff. They definitely count, your 'cause reasons' is not accepted in this case Also, FW is not a subsidiary of GW. Its just one division within the company as a whole, so yes, FW stuff does count Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5352043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Its like saying AoS orks are a release for 40k orks. But whatever floats your goat my man. I have accepted that Firstborne are not the focus anymore, and honestly, since I have no expectations for primaris, my disposition towards them improved. Whatever be will be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5352047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Let's not pretend there have been any Classic Marines releases just because specialist studios or limited edition products have been released. It's disingenuous and you're better than that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5352049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Lets not pretend that they are mainstream releases because that's just denial. Its like you said, limited editions, collectible stuff that you cant order from the store or 30k. Trying to make that fit the same bill as previous Firstborne for 40k releases its just a false equivalence. Primaris have taken that slot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5352050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 They are classic marine models though. Mithril asked when the last new 'firstborn' model was released; they are new 'firstborn' models. He didn't include any qualifications about what type of release it had to be. If people are meaning 'when was the classic marine mainline squad box for a codex unit for 40k only released' then they should say that. Its a fact that new classic marine models have been released since primaris appeared. The nature of the release doesn't change that from being a fact. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5352051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik Lightstar Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Looking at this a different way, if they're getting enough interest on niche armies like Genestealer Cults and Adeptus Mechanicus to make and maintain dedicated ranges when they were previously deemed completely non-viable, then the standard marine kits aren't going anywhere. They've done the HARD work, that's the design work and the expensive work which is producing the tools for the sprues to be made. EVERY SINGLE SALE of a "standard marine kit" is essentially printing money. The Codex may not have any new entries for some time, but that's a completely different question, the range being "static" for 10 years is not ideal, but it's not unheard of either, Eldar got very few new kits for a long time, the same is true of a lot of the ranges, they'll have to wait their turn, Primaris Marines will be the ones to get the Quarterly Marine Releases for now. Rik Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/3/#findComment-5352057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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