Panzer Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 They are classic marine models though. Mithril asked when the last new 'firstborn' model was released; they are new 'firstborn' models. He didn't include any qualifications about what type of release it had to be. If people are meaning 'when was the classic marine mainline squad box for a codex unit for 40k only released' then they should say that. Its a fact that new classic marine models have been released since primaris appeared. The nature of the release doesn't change that from being a fact. Now that's just semantics. When talking about the future of Firstborns in 40k the context dictates that such a question is to be read 'when was the classic marine mainline squad box for a codex unit for 40k only released'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenzaburo Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 You're splitting hairs now, guys. One thing that is glaringly obvious was touched on by Idaho: All official content publications, bei it WHC, WD or codexes and campaign books forego pics of old marines. The Blood Ravens army in this month's WD was the first in quite some time, that I saw firstborns in an official publication, prominently again. And even there they pretend like those are almost non-existant. I'm a marketing guy and this is how we run it in our company: Once we want customers to change to a new version of our software, we stop mentioning the older one. All new content will only talk about the new version. The old one is still supported, until a sufficient number of our client base has ported over to the current one. It's a pure numbers game - how long do we financially need to offer support for the older version (in our case means, how long do we need trained staff to answer customer requests for support of older versions). Once we have passed a certain point we will send out the info that version X.Y.Z will no longer be supported by date X. And that's that. Still, it feels way different to be on the receiving end of that strategy and have this happen to something close to my heart instead of a piece of business software. I'm glad that our heroes of decades past are still featured in the lore and BL books, if not in pictures and the more standard content of GW. EDIT: One more thing: I still believe that an updated Terminator kit with less skinny upper thighs and a tad more massive overall and classic Astartes in Deathwatch armour would sell surprisingly well. Terminators are iconic and a cool looking unit, that has not been matched by Gravis or the other stuff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Looking at this a different way, if they're getting enough interest on niche armies like Genestealer Cults and Adeptus Mechanicus to make and maintain dedicated ranges when they were previously deemed completely non-viable, then the standard marine kits aren't going anywhere. They've done the HARD work, that's the design work and the expensive work which is producing the tools for the sprues to be made. EVERY SINGLE SALE of a "standard marine kit" is essentially printing money. The Codex may not have any new entries for some time, but that's a completely different question, the range being "static" for 10 years is not ideal, but it's not unheard of either, Eldar got very few new kits for a long time, the same is true of a lot of the ranges, they'll have to wait their turn, Primaris Marines will be the ones to get the Quarterly Marine Releases for now. Rik Agree with this completely. I've heard so many times over the years from people who were so adamant there will never be things like Genestealer Cults, redone Sisters of Battle, squat models, specialist games are dead and will never return etc, that i put little stock in the opinions of those who tell me that classic marines will disappear never to be revisited. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 You're splitting hairs now, guys. One thing that is glaringly obvious was touched on by Idaho: All official content publications, bei it WHC, WD or codexes and campaign books forego pics of old marines. This is just not true. All recent marine codices have pictures of old marines in them. The vigilus defiant book has plenty of pictures of old marines in. Recent stuff like the crimson fists and blood ravens IA feature plenty of old marine models. There were pkenty of old marine models in the recent WHC apocalypse articles for example. Sure, they may have primaris marines front and center, but they are the new hot thing they are trying to sell. There are old marines everywhere in said publicatons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenzaburo Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Hm, in that case mea culpa. I did mention the Blood Ravens IA, but was pretty sure I hadn't seen any in Vigilus. And true, Apocalypse did feature classics. I can't speak for current marine dexes, I should have thought about that. But whatever shot I looked at recently or the past few months, where faction x,y,z was fighting astartes, it was solely Primaris. At least so much so, that I started to notice and was quite bugged by leaving out standard marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Having rules for the models won't do much if those rules are unsupported. By this I of course mean brought into line with other releases and rules. Look at Calgar in power armour. He costs more than the version in Terminator armour and is inferior! So sure, there will be Classic Marines rules for a little while but if they don't get an update that means very little and is a token gesture. Regardless of that, it IS the numbers game as mentioned above. But I don't play those games. My money goes on things I like and GW have lost my business for 40K ever since I finished my Vanguard Veterans. So from my position, this business practice to push Primaris on me hasn't worked and isn't profitable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Knight Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Having rules for the models won't do much if those rules are unsupported. By this I of course mean brought into line with other releases and rules. Look at Calgar in power armour. He costs more than the version in Terminator armour and is inferior! So sure, there will be Classic Marines rules for a little while but if they don't get an update that means very little and is a token gesture. Regardless of that, it IS the numbers game as mentioned above. But I don't play those games. My money goes on things I like and GW have lost my business for 40K ever since I finished my Vanguard Veterans. So from my position, this business practice to push Primaris on me hasn't worked and isn't profitable. But did those veterans mark the natural completion of your collection? The Primaris are an odd beast because they are equal parts the natural progression of the Astartes range and a new army entirely. Does your position indicate a disengagement from the hobby? By your comment it would appear that you have both rejected the Primaris and simultaneously decided to stop adding to your existing traditional Astartes. I too have felt that certain projects are completed, only to focus on something else before returning to them months or even years later. You might one day decide to make the jump as more and more kits are released, or you might move your focus across to a different faction or even abandon certain aspects of the hobby entirely. These are all natural choices many of us make. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Having rules for the models won't do much if those rules are unsupported. By this I of course mean brought into line with other releases and rules. Look at Calgar in power armour. He costs more than the version in Terminator armour and is inferior! So sure, there will be Classic Marines rules for a little while but if they don't get an update that means very little and is a token gesture. Regardless of that, it IS the numbers game as mentioned above. But I don't play those games. My money goes on things I like and GW have lost my business for 40K ever since I finished my Vanguard Veterans. So from my position, this business practice to push Primaris on me hasn't worked and isn't profitable. I felt a bit jilted the first time I saw Primaris. I was annoyed that it was happening, but also impressed with the look of the new models. They echoed the Horus Heresy range of Astartes at a glance which I did admittedly like from the get go. What I did appreciate initially was how slowly they were rolled out, and how many value box-sets were available. The Primaris range were the cheapest 40k project, relatively speaking, that I've ever invested in - I think my first 2000 points barely exceeded £200 in cost. 2 years on I now feel they are being far too slow, and I have a sizeable army with multiples of every unit in the Primaris range. The minute the Primaris dropped it was clear that they were the future of the Astartes range and I had a choice of accepting or rejecting that. As the range grows they will fill more gaps in their capabilities and more people will be happy. I don't think the classic Astartes are going anywhere for a while, as I said earlier. They might be consolidated into an updated Index Astartes in the future but the faction and models will still be usable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephaniah Adriyen Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 I don't know I'm qualified to talk on this topic, primarily because I got into the hobby last Christmas (well into 8th, but before Shadowspear and the updated Undivided range happening) and picked up Firstborn units later, but... I personally hope GW updates the Firstborn range and expands the Primaris range to include more options. Primaris seems like it's designed to be simpler and less varied, and I kind of hate that about it. If I want weapon options, I have to work with Firstborn models, who look so stumpy and short next to my otherwise mostly Primaris army. I identify as a Blood Angels player, not a Primaris player; Primaris indicate a merging of the way we do things as a faction, and I hate it. Unless we start getting more Primaris options and Primaris versions of all of the things which make these factions unique... we're going to have a merging. From a business perspective, Games Workshop retiring the Firstborn range would probably be a poor idea. There's a lot of people who field Firstborn models, especially since they were the mascots for 8 editions, 32 years now (correct me if I'm wrong) and have acted as a common through-line that whole time. I, a player who mostly fields the Primaris range, have been considering picking up that first Rogue Trader Tactical Marines kit, painting it up in my colors with modern paints, taking a moment to compare some of the regular boltgun guys with my Intercessors, then fielding them like any Tacticals, just because the old kits have a certain magic. I am absolutely certain SOMEBODY out there fields a full Rogue Trader army, somebody fields a later-edition Astartes army, and people field modern-day Astartes armies with mixed Primaris/Firstborn makeup (like me). Games Workshop should treat the Primaris as an expansion to the Astartes range, not as a replacement. Just my opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Triszin Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 I think First born will not see a new kit. They will eventually be phased out of the codex within 10 years. And be replaced entirely by primaris Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352135 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 When was the last time we saw First Born marines in a battle report in White Dwarf?... when was the last New model for First Born released?... they will slowly fade into the background as more fluff is written etc etc...they'll go to online only and then... Primaris will be thought of as Standard Space marines... "Hey!, what are those small models?.." oh they used to be the Space marines"... "haha don't they look small now " ... "I have some of them laying around here somewhere?!"... Mithril I think these questions, even while at the forefront of everyone's minds, are deceptively irrelevant. Some factions still stand despite it being quite a long time since a new kit released. But then you start to get into the question of "what counts as a Firstborn release?" where the answer depends on the axe one is grinding. Does FW count? How about Space Marine Heroes? What about new rules - does that show support? Etc, etc... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 They’ve already showed the resin versions of CAD designed mark 2 generic armor with the White Scars Assault speeder so that’s at least one more ten man old marine kit on the way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 I don't think GW will release any new Thin-blood Astartes models as the range is very much completed. They have three aircraft, a large selection of tanks, Dreads and infantry in every role. What more can be added? I remember the substantial backlash when Centurions were first revealed, because they didn't conform to existing ideas of what Astartes infantry should be or look like, or because people said their roles are redundant or didn't fit the lore. At least the Primaris won't have these specific problems as lore limitations have been lifted and visually they have a greater variety between units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352145 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephaniah Adriyen Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 I feel that any release whose 40k datasheet possesses the ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword and not the PRIMARIS keyword is a Firstborn release. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Krash Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Total wish list here...but I just need to post it somewhere. I'm hoping when all the dust settles. Forge world will take over the old marine line and push us into the Scouring...after the events of the horus heresy. IMO there's just to much money left on the table for Forgeworld not to push into that largely unexplored timeline. Maybe I'm wrong but I do hope that's where FW is headed at least... Krash Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Total wish list here...but I just need to post it somewhere. I'm hoping when all the dust settles. Forge world will take over the old marine line and push us into the Scouring...after the events of the horus heresy. IMO there's just to much money left on the table for Forgeworld not to push into that largely unexplored timeline. Maybe I'm wrong but I do hope that's where FW is headed at least... Krash That’s definitely possible. Having historical 40k as a specialist game would be a dream come true. Might finally get some Frateris Militia and war of the Beast Orks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderforge Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 I'm sure GW will squat the old marines from their shelves; the Primaris are new and shiny and just go and BUY THEM! My only question is ... will we get Traitor Primaris?? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 I'm sure GW will squat the old marines from their shelves; the Primaris are new and shiny and just go and BUY THEM! My only question is ... will we get Traitor Primaris?? Probably not since Jes has been very specific that they are moving away from chaos being marines with spikes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik Lightstar Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 I don't think GW will release any new Thin-blood Astartes models as the range is very much completed. They have three aircraft, a large selection of tanks, Dreads and infantry in every role. What more can be added? I remember the substantial backlash when Centurions were first revealed, because they didn't conform to existing ideas of what Astartes infantry should be or look like, or because people said their roles are redundant or didn't fit the lore. At least the Primaris won't have these specific problems as lore limitations have been lifted and visually they have a greater variety between units. I disagree, I think the design work has been done to replace the kits that need it, the Scouts, Terminators and Bikers especially, but they don't want to detract from the Primaris stuff. Once the Primaris line has hit a natural completion we'll see some revised Classic Marine kits drop, and probably some shiny new rules to help them sell. Rik Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 They’re already revisiting old marines for Heresy kits pretty frequently. Once the new factory is built for the specialist games expansion we will probably see things like Gorkamorka and the other really cool IPs return in droves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SickSix Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Total wish list here...but I just need to post it somewhere. I'm hoping when all the dust settles. Forge world will take over the old marine line and push us into the Scouring...after the events of the horus heresy. IMO there's just to much money left on the table for Forgeworld not to push into that largely unexplored timeline. Maybe I'm wrong but I do hope that's where FW is headed at least... Krash Oh I am totally with you on this and think FW would be moronic not to do the Scouring and capitalize on all the disenfranchised Firstborn players. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 I do wonder if the Age of Darkness ruleset will eventually become the foundation for historical 40k that encompasses an index like army list structure for all the factions. The Dark Millennium is the main system and story while GW still capitalized on its rich IP and in universe history. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 To answer questions directed at me... Yes I am disengaged from the company (GW) right now. I have been a loyal customer and am seeing the money invested, first with Fantasy then with Classic Space Marines, being essentially wasted on a medium to long term basis. I am not throwing money I can barely afford at a company that doesn't seem to respect my consumer based desires. They don't have to of course but I don't have to be hostage to them either. Regardless of that, were the Vanguard I bought just completing the collection? Come now... when is anything we collect complete ;) *** @ Ishagu: I'd recommend against using antagonistic nicknames for Classic Marines. Whilst it is something Chaos Marines labelled modern Chapters, labelling Classic Marines as this whilst discussing with people who may be upset about their financial investment being wasted (in their eyes) might ruffle feathers unnecessary. Besides, it's technically incorrect because it is a reference to modern Chapters from the perspective of a renegade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352183 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Firstborn is also incorrect as many Primaris hail from long before the living Astartes of today, and it ignores the Thunder Warriors and Custodes who were the original creation of the Emperor. It's just a term used by a deviating chapter north of the galactic split (A great chapter with lots of character, mind). Everyone is spamming the term as if it was GW's official name for the range. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352187 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 Total wish list here...but I just need to post it somewhere. I'm hoping when all the dust settles. Forge world will take over the old marine line and push us into the Scouring...after the events of the horus heresy. IMO there's just to much money left on the table for Forgeworld not to push into that largely unexplored timeline. Maybe I'm wrong but I do hope that's where FW is headed at least... Krash This would work for me. Would definetly get me buying large amounts of marines again! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357306-so-how-long-before-gw-retires-the-non-primaris-range/page/4/#findComment-5352190 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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