So how long before GW retires the non-Primaris range?

[Sete]

You touch a good point Carrick.

The unique nature of some chapters.

Im half expecting Templars to lose crusader squads, but in return get their Sword Bros as veterans.

If we are expecting GW to follow a HH organization scheme, I think most of the unique troops will be safe, and a few new ones could even be introduced to some other chapters. But unlike HH, Dark Imperium deals with a lot of different factions that are not SM, so they might keep it simple for all chapters, thus making a few units disappear.

While I don't think BA and DA will lose their unique dudes, im not so sure about Templars and some of the SW units.

[Panzer]

I'd be lying if I'd say I'm not at least a little bit worried about the future of the chapter specific units, however I chose to be optimistic until proven otherwise.

[Sete]

I have accepted that Templars might lose Crusader Squads. But if we in exchange get Primaris Sword bros with new sculpts, its something im willing to accept. (This is my opinions, I don't know how my fellow Templars might react)

Also im assuming Primaris sword bros, due to the fact that the ones we currently have are Resin (and we got sword bros rules back in vigilus strangely), and since calgar and his honor guard got redone, I expect that to be dones to the rest of the range.

If we just lose stuff without getting anything back, its going to be a hard pill to swallow.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Dare I say we should just get new chapter specific units. All of us. This should be the case regardless what you think the eventual fate of older marine units to be.

[Lemondish]

 

 

For me the design aethesetic of Primaris is markedly inferior.

 

 

For me, it's the opposite - the stunted, squat Astartes Firstborn are somewhat noxious to look at

Noxious?!? An odd adjective to use to describe models you don’t like, but ok mate :lol: Probably best if you stay away from them in that case, wouldn’t want you getting ill from over exposure to classic marines :lol: :lol:

I'm glad you pointed that out - it was a very intentional word choice lol

 

In my youth, I injured by knees and back in a horrid hockey accident (I say accident, but it really was just a normal game in a season that did me in). Their squat appearance, for some reason, looks to me like they'd have tremendous knee and back strain. Especially Terminators. Can't help but cringe at that as the memories hit about what that's like lol

[Ishagu]

I have accepted that Templars might lose Crusader Squads. But if we in exchange get Primaris Sword bros with new sculpts, its something im willing to accept. (This is my opinions, I don't know how my fellow Templars might react)

Also im assuming Primaris sword bros, due to the fact that the ones we currently have are Resin (and we got sword bros rules back in vigilus strangely), and since calgar and his honor guard got redone, I expect that to be dones to the rest of the range.

If we just lose stuff without getting anything back, its going to be a hard pill to swallow.

I think this is very important.

 

So far the Ultramarines have a specific codex unit in Victrix Guard. I would accept no additional units outside of characters until some other chapters also received some.

 

The Black Templars could get Sword Brothers, the Iron Hands could receive some Medusan Immortals style troops with great defence, The Raven Guard can get a dedicated flying cc unit.

 

Imperial and Crimson Fists need Primaris versions of Lysander and Kantor respectively. The same applies to Vulkan of the Salamanders.

 

If the codex goes full Primaris it will already be more streamlined and will have room for some chapter specific units.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

I do hope if they redo Terminators, they retain some of the classic look.

Me too. Especially that helmet!

Personally I think the models should just get scaled like the new chaos ones those look pretty good next to primaris.

[Robbienw]

 

 

 

For me the design aethesetic of Primaris is markedly inferior.

 

 

For me, it's the opposite - the stunted, squat Astartes Firstborn are somewhat noxious to look at

Noxious?!? An odd adjective to use to describe models you don’t like, but ok mate :lol: Probably best if you stay away from them in that case, wouldn’t want you getting ill from over exposure to classic marines :lol: :lol:

I'm glad you pointed that out - it was a very intentional word choice lol

 

In my youth, I injured by knees and back in a horrid hockey accident (I say accident, but it really was just a normal game in a season that did me in). Their squat appearance, for some reason, looks to me like they'd have tremendous knee and back strain. Especially Terminators. Can't help but cringe at that as the memories hit about what that's like lol

The knee braced (‘squat’) posing is actually quite realistic. Actual soldiers do it all the time I’m told!

 

I like a variety of posing, squatting, deathwatch style striding, assault and FW legion style running/leaping forward poses etc. Even the odd marine with one foot on a tactical rock.

 

I still think noxious was a strange choice to describe models one doesn’t like though, it would not occur to me to use it. One tends to assume noxious refers to things that are poisonous or hazardous, as in noxious fumes. I think maybe you meant to actually say nauseous, based on your previous hockey injury issues? :lol:

[Acebaur]

Classic marines being phased out is inevitable, and if you are naive if you think that won't happen. The writing is already on the wall. They are disappearing from art and promotional materials and there aren't any new kits being released.

 

But it's not going to happen over night, no, it will be slow, so slow that it will be barely noticeable. The kits will be be produced for a long time to come as long as GW is still making money on them but it will start with rules. First they won't get any major updates, next it will be a separate codex entirely (already rumored to be in the works) until finally they are an index option.

 

And then finally one by one the kits will disappear as they slowly become un profitable. GW will advance the time line with each new codex allowing for the slow attrition of war to kill off most or all of the remaining classic marines until they feature a few remaining grizzled veterans who serve as badass and humorous characters in novels.

 

But there will be no sudden squatting of anything, GW has learned their lesson from WHFB and won't make thst mistake again with their biggest cash cow. But they had to do something, marines had stagnated due to the hole GW had written themselves into with the Imperium's backward tech. That something is the primaris and they are the future of SM

[Captain Idaho]

I agree with most of what you said but there is a single point I hold contention with:

 

Advancing the timeline with new concepts could have been done with Guilliman's return without bringing in Primaris. Hell they could have even made larger Astartes more in proportion etc.

 

The need for Primaris was unnecessary and that's my contention. It is cynical from GW to force us to rebut an army instead of add to one. Copyright was unnecessary, since names are names.

[Ishagu]

The only problem with adding to the classic Astartes is that you keep all the bloat, redundancies and baggage from years of releases, re releases and outdated design philosophy.

[Marshal Rohr]

Classic marines being phased out is inevitable, and if you are naive if you think that won't happen. The writing is already on the wall. They are disappearing from art and promotional materials and there aren't any new kits being released.

 

But it's not going to happen over night, no, it will be slow, so slow that it will be barely noticeable. The kits will be be produced for a long time to come as long as GW is still making money on them but it will start with rules. First they won't get any major updates, next it will be a separate codex entirely (already rumored to be in the works) until finally they are an index option.

 

And then finally one by one the kits will disappear as they slowly become un profitable. GW will advance the time line with each new codex allowing for the slow attrition of war to kill off most or all of the remaining classic marines until they feature a few remaining grizzled veterans who serve as badass and humorous characters in novels.

 

But there will be no sudden squatting of anything, GW has learned their lesson from WHFB and won't make thst mistake again with their biggest cash cow. But they had to do something, marines had stagnated due to the hole GW had written themselves into with the Imperium's backward tech. That something is the primaris and they are the future of SM

 

The Heresy isn’t even halfway done and all Heresy releases are oldmarine releases.

[Robbienw]

I do wonder if Primaris started as an end stage old GW Kirby initiative, to attempt to get all space marine collectors to fully repurchase their armies to boost flagging profits by replacing the 40k marine line entirely.

 

Then kevin roundtree took over and things became better and they realised how obnoxious and potentially difficult doing such a thing would be, and (somewhat awkwardly) Primaris were changed into what they are now.

 

It would also go a way to explaining why they have 10 years worth of designs ready digitally. Maybe at one point it was planned to be released in one big lump :O

[Captain Idaho]

The only problem with adding to the classic Astartes is that you keep all the bloat, redundancies and baggage from years of releases, re releases and outdated design philosophy.

Debatable. This would require the end result of Primaris being the elimination of the Classic Line.

 

If that's the case then why would that be prohibitive to new Classic Marines replacing the older line?

 

The logic isn't consistent - if you can replace Classics with Primaris you can replace them with Classics.

 

And bloat is a terrible argument. 3 different types of bolters for a single basic trooper is an example of rules bloat. If it's model bloat, then why are there 20 different types of Lieutenants when 1 multi kit would suffice? Why have Intercessors AND Infiltrators AND Reivers when the latter 2 perform similar roles and the former 2 compete for basic troops?

 

The bloat argument doesn't hold water when you look at Stormcast Eternals. They have plenty of units that compete and duplicate each other and it's not an issue.

[Captain Idaho]

I do wonder if Primaris started as an end stage old GW Kirby initiative, to attempt to get all space marine collectors to fully repurchase their armies to boost flagging profits by replacing the 40k marine line entirely.

Then kevin roundtree took over and things became better and they realised how obnoxious and potentially difficult doing such a thing would be, and (somewhat awkwardly) Primaris were changed into what they are now.

It would also go a way to explaining why they have 10 years worth of designs ready digitally. Maybe at one point it was planned to be released in one big lump :O

Very good point i never considered. Makes sense completely and gives much credit to nu GW.

[Lucerne]

The Primaris designs are somewhat soulless and unfitting for a "replacement" for true Astartes- it's like saying Tau are a replacement for the entire Ork line, models, wargear, and fluff...

 

Ideally, they just update tacticals etc to be "Chaos scaled" with all of three kits, change up some details, and then focus on their shiny new range of replacement options.

[Ishagu]

The Primaris designs are somewhat soulless and unfitting for a "replacement" for true Astartes- it's like saying Tau are a replacement for the entire Ork line, models, wargear, and fluff...

 

Ideally, they just update tacticals etc to be "Chaos scaled" with all of three kits, change up some details, and then focus on their shiny new range of replacement options.

It wasn't long ago they released three new plastic kits. You can't ask for another with a slight scale difference.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Dirty and gritty and dark gothic, barroque and full of character and true to the lore and soul of 40k

 

Cleand and bright, generic soulless sci-fi that has lost it's way

Know the difference, it can save your life! 

 

 

(And yeah, I know the topic moved on a bit, and yeah I know I've made this argument before.... I just... can't stop my eyes from rolling reading some of what's posted....)

 

Felt equally pertinent now as then. Guess I could add True vs Untrue Astartest to the list.

 

Oh and don't mistake this for me for thinking you can't have this opinion, I'm just exercising my own right to challange it. 

[Panzer]

The Primaris designs are somewhat soulless and unfitting for a "replacement" for true Astartes- it's like saying Tau are a replacement for the entire Ork line, models, wargear, and fluff...

 

Ideally, they just update tacticals etc to be "Chaos scaled" with all of three kits, change up some details, and then focus on their shiny new range of replacement options.

 

That's the most unfitting comparison I've read in a while, not to mention simply wrong lol

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

What makes Primaris soulless? What makes the old Tactical kit baroque and gothic, with full of character, while the new Intercessor kit has none?

 

Mismatching armor marks, most namely helmets?

Rivets?

More purity seals?

 

I get the emotional connection to a product via nostalgia, but I am just not seeing the above details as something that creates a large divide. There is also a basis in lore for this: The Primaris are New™ by Imperium standards. How silly would it be if we had mismatch marks of armor or a variety of helmets with Primaris already? They should look fresh-off-the-assembly-line.

 

Not arguing or flaming, but I would love to hear someone's specific thoughts about how the two kits differ, and what about the old kit that they feel is missing int he new range that should have been brought over.

[SickSix]

The only problem with adding to the classic Astartes is that you keep all the bloat, redundancies and baggage from years of releases, re releases and outdated design philosophy.

As opposed to carrying two completely separate Space Marine model lines as a many here are suggesting?

 

I am fully with Captain Idaho on this. (Btw how do to tag usernames?)

 

Crawl could have simply introduced MkX armor and all the new fancy weapons without Primaris. GW could have simply stated they finally wanted to address the scale problem of Marines being no bigger than elder or Guardsmen. And you simply replace/update existing kits without having to carry two separate lines and develops new rules.

 

That transition would have been acceptable to me.

[Blindhamster]

 

 

Dirty and gritty and dark gothic, barroque and full of character and true to the lore and soul of 40k

 

Cleand and bright, generic soulless sci-fi that has lost it's way

Know the difference, it can save your life!

 

 

(And yeah, I know the topic moved on a bit, and yeah I know I've made this argument before.... I just... can't stop my eyes from rolling reading some of what's posted....)

Felt equally pertinent now as then. Guess I could add True vs Untrue Astartest to the list.

 

Oh and don't mistake this for me for thinking you can't have this opinion, I'm just exercising my own right to challange it.

I really don't understand how the tactical marines are somehow grittier? Because if the paint job? The models certainly aren't..

 

Both variants make use of skull icons, both variants have purity seals... umm the tactical sergeant has a tabbard I guess? I have to admit, I'd love some primaris models with those. The BA lieutenant isn't enough lol.

 

The two squads have similar silhouettes, just primaris have bulkier legs and torsos with slightly bulkier arms.

 

Is it the helms? Nobody complained about mk4 helms and mkX are very very similar

[Ishagu]

 

The only problem with adding to the classic Astartes is that you keep all the bloat, redundancies and baggage from years of releases, re releases and outdated design philosophy.

As opposed to carrying two completely separate Space Marine model lines as a many here are suggesting?

 

I am fully with Captain Idaho on this. (Btw how do to tag usernames?)

 

Crawl could have simply introduced MkX armor and all the new fancy weapons without Primaris. GW could have simply stated they finally wanted to address the scale problem of Marines being no bigger than elder or Guardsmen. And you simply replace/update existing kits without having to carry two separate lines and develops new rules.

 

That transition would have been acceptable to me.

There comes a time when a range needs a ground-up refresh. This isn't unique to this hobby. Like an MMO with too many expansions, or a house with too many extensions. Eventually it's better and more practical to just make sequel or move to a bigger house.

 

As you said it yourself, they are a separate model line. They only share a codex for the time being. Whether they get their own book this year, or a few years down the line, eventually you'll be left with a refreshed, re-invigorated and streamlined model line of Astartes.

 

I personally don't want to see classic Astartes forgotten any time soon. I love my various relic vehicles and find them very thematic, even in a Primaris list. Hopefully GW continues to support them with rules and production as long as it's viable to do so.

[SickSix]

Yeah I think the 'soulless' argument is pure nostalgia. When you put those two pictures together so close, they look almost exactly the same in style/theme whatever. Now if you put the other Primaris kits up then yeah, I think they are just silly.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think as far as line troopers go, all you have to do is look at Tyrannicide's log about oldmarines to see the 'grittier' feel people are referencing, but Primaris can also do that just as well. They just dont have the bits or unit options to pull it off as extensively in their current incarnation. Migsula has some fairly cookie cutter, out of the box Primaris on Instagram that are mindblowingly awesome because of their colors. Eberious has made some Primaris Templars every bit as cool as Brother Christopher's Oldmarine Templars. Primaris are like marines were in third edition early days. Not a lot of upgrades, so the best work is always someone who has sculpted something awesome, or used a bit we didnt expect, or done a really detailed color scheme or used modelers materials to add trim and cabling. For a few years kitbashers were doing the best work and most people could emulate that because you only needed to see it and get the parts. Now with Primaris being a less diverse range in choice of bits and wargear, the best conversions are true conversions, as in someone has machined or fashioned new parts for them to make them unique. Once Games Workshop pulls their head out and Primaris become like Heresy Units where one tactical squad can be an on foot assault squad, a true tactical squad, or a veteran squad minus special weapons you wont have any problem seeing the potential in Primaris. Until then, grab some clay shapers and saddle up because its kicking my :cuss sculpting these tabards.