Today in Titanicus I...

[Robbienw]

Its the same issue there has always been - 2 part steel molds that GW uses for plastic cant do undercuts.  So as a result you would not be able to replicate some of the details from the 40k models om the styrix and magaera without modification to sprue layout.  Mainly the carapace banding, the shoulderpads and the crenellation type borders above the head and on the shin pads.

 

Remember they are limited to one sprue to work on per knight kit, and the questoris type knights have been designed with their upper carapace one piece (including shoulderpads), except for the exhaust vents.

 

So based on them needing to stick to one sprue you have 3 choices of what to do:

 

a) Change the details that are problematic so it can be cast in plastic in the same format as the questoris knights.  The level of change would make the model look quite different, which may not be well received by fans and may not be what the designers want.

 

b ) Change the sprue so the carapace can be molded in several parts.  This could be difficult because the shoulderpads would need to be split off and be 3 parts each, the carapace would need to be split into several parts to maintain the look of the banding, and the shin pads would need to be 2 pieces each.  So with more parts you increase the space needed on the sprue for channels to mold the parts and you may not have enough space for all the pieces, necessitating an additional mini sprue that you might not have budget approval for, or meaning you can have less knights on the sprue.  And you still might not be able to replicate the details in full.

 

c) You can do it in resin and maintain all the details.  The main issue with this is the knights cost more.

 

 

Alternately they may have been forced to go with option c because they have certain budget allowances for steel molds, and have more kits they want to do than avaliable steel molds budget spots in certain time frames, so had to do some in resin now, or leave them to be released in plastic several years down the line.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Robbienw

[Noserenda]

Except thats not really true even if cad cut plastics couldnt do undercuts (Which they can these days), the Top armour and greaves on these knights is not more difficult to make in one piece than the regular questoris knights. The Shoulder pads wouldnt be one piece but i think you can get that space back with the lack of shields and crotch banners easily enough. Thats all assuming you dont just drop to two knights per sprue like the cerastus which is obviously something they are happy to do as they did it with the resin ones anyway, presumably just because the resin moulds have an even number of bits on them :D 

It might delay the release a little, (Though it looks like AT is only getting 2 plastic slots this year anyway :( )  but was anyone really champing at the bit for another anti infantry knight kit right now? Knock em back 6 months and do them properly is going to be a better choice in the long run. It feels like they were only resin because theyve presumably put the plastic budget for specialist games into Blood bowl/Necromunda this year, which wouldnt be so bad losing one slot to boost another games re release, but doing it twice is a bit galling and some lacklustre resin releases are the opposite of helping with that.

I mean i like the designs, but just like their 40k versions, there is no way im willing to pay that much more for them, worse in fact because these are effectively 3 times the price of the plastics when the 40k ones were only double :D 

[Robbienw]

You can design any kind of shape you want in CAD software, there are no limitations.  You can't do undercuts in a 2 part steel mold though, no matter what you do in the CAD software - this is fact and unavoidable. 

 

It would not be possible to replicate the top armour details if you keep it one piece like the regular questoris knights due to no undercuts - this is also fact.  The banding would have to be thicker and wouldnt be able to be angled the same as on the 40k model (they would end up thick and straight down like the rail around the cockpit on the regular AT questoris).  The crenellations above the head and on the shin plates would be distorted and not squared off.  The shoulderpads would have to be completely redesigned.

 

Thus the only way you can keep the model looking almost the same as the 40k version in plastic is by splitting the carapace, shoulderpads and shin plates into multiple pieces, which comes with all the constaints i outlined in option b.

 

You can see on the regular questoris knight models where they have had to make some design compromises compared to the 40k model, due to the limitations of the 2 part steel molds.  For example the knees plates area is a bit different and the detail on the thigh plates is not replicated correctly.  The Styrix and Magaera have correct knee plates and thigh armour by contrast because, yes you guessed it, they are resin   Its only a minor difference on the questoris knights though so is acceptable; a plastic styrix and magaera would have had much more difference.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Robbienw

[RipOffProductions]

plus even if there were willing to spend the money on making a plastic mold for them, on such a tiny model those multi-part fine details would be a horrific pain to assemble, the existing AT Questorus Knights are already pushing what I consider reasonable(still hate that the feed for the stubber/melta is through the barrel, why not do it from the back so I don't have to shave a nub off the tip of such a thin little thing that's in clear view in the final model?)

[schoon]

Ave Princeps!

Could you give me some intel about the loyalist titan legions present at Terra? Or which one worked closely with the Blood Angels during the Heresy? 

I'm trying to figure out the scheme of my loyalist force, and it is getting ever harder with every new campaign book. 

 

...and I believe the upcoming Siege of Terra book - Mortis - ought to shed some official light on that.

[Mandragola]

I've just put together a mixed plastic/resin model as it happens (a tiger tank from Rubicon for bolt action) and it was an absolute nightmare. The resin tracks had shrunk a bit and wouldn't fit on the plastic pins till several rounds of boiling water and brute force had been applied. So I'm definitely glad these things are all-resin rather than half and half.

 

I think they could have made these knights out of plastic if they'd wanted to. They could have cast the armour plate segments separately or something. I think the decision not to will have come down to resources available. FW still makes "special" stuff for all its specialist games out of resin. They must be making some kind of judgement about the expected production run of star players, alternative titan weapons, bounty hunters and so on.

 

And this is fine I think. I'd sooner they saved the plastic sprues for more titans. Let's hope we get some soon. In the meantime I think it's very likely that we'll see the Asterion next month, since FW seem to be on a bit of a roll of releasing admech-style resin knights.

[Gattopardo]

I think that's right - I'd guess they could have made these knights in plastic if they'd really wanted, so I think it must be a decision about how they allocate plastic versus resin.

 

I'm fine with them producing these knights in resin - they're nice to have (the Atrapos is one of my favourites of all the knight designs so I'm definitely looking forward to that), but far from essential. If you're talking about what gets made in plastic versus resin, I'd have thought titan weapon upgrades should be much higher up the priority list for being plastic - some of the Warlord weapon upgrades are fairly essential really if you're running Warlords frequently in the game, whereas there's no need from a gaming perspective to field the resin knights - the plastic knight options are fine. Obviously the titan weapons are already resin now, so they're never going to be released in plastic. But there may be more weapon options in future - clearly there will be, in the case of the Warbringer - and I'd rather any available plastic production for AT got allocated to those things (and maybe corrupted titans when they come along). Plus new titans of course, although who knows on that one.

[Noserenda]

You can design any kind of shape you want in CAD software, there are no limitations.  You can't do undercuts in a 2 part steel mold though, no matter what you do in the CAD software - this is fact and unavoidable. 

 

I mean its fairly pointless arguing if you are just gonna stick your head in the sand about plastic/CAD advances :D The whole point is you can make those shapes without using an undercut on the mould because the CAD program can do all sorts of weird slices on the components to make it all work that someone with a physical master cant in any reasonable timeframe/cost.

 

Id be less upset about an obscure chaff unit being wasted if they were at least using that plastic budget for titans :( Still, can hope for maybe some increased plastic releases in 2021!

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Yeah, I bought the Household box. Time to pick a knight house, I suppose.

[Sherrypie]

Yeah, I bought the Household box. Time to pick a knight house, I suppose.

I've got like 20 finished ones and a whole Household box unbuilt, but my house is still in need of a name :D

[Robbienw]

 

You can design any kind of shape you want in CAD software, there are no limitations.  You can't do undercuts in a 2 part steel mold though, no matter what you do in the CAD software - this is fact and unavoidable. 

 

I mean its fairly pointless arguing if you are just gonna stick your head in the sand about plastic/CAD advances The whole point is you can make those shapes without using an undercut on the mould because the CAD program can do all sorts of weird slices on the components to make it all work that someone with a physical master cant in any reasonable timeframe/cost.

 

Id be less upset about an obscure chaff unit being wasted if they were at least using that plastic budget for titans Still, can hope for maybe some increased plastic releases in 2021!

 

 

That's what i was saying though!  I was talking about in my option b in my previous post you can split up parts to try and get around not being able to do undercuts in a 2 part steel mold.  I was also explaining to you the drawbacks of doing this as you may run out of space on the sprue etc.  And the fact you wouldn't be able to do the top armour like the regular questoris, without having to noticeably alter the details.  Have a re-read ;)

 

I'm sure we will see more plastic releases in 2021, the Warbringer with a Volcano canon sprue is surely guaranteed.  Hopefully the Rapier scout titan as well as that has been mentioned now in the fluff for a couple of years.

[Mandragola]

I think that's right - I'd guess they could have made these knights in plastic if they'd really wanted, so I think it must be a decision about how they allocate plastic versus resin.

 

I'm fine with them producing these knights in resin - they're nice to have (the Atrapos is one of my favourites of all the knight designs so I'm definitely looking forward to that), but far from essential. If you're talking about what gets made in plastic versus resin, I'd have thought titan weapon upgrades should be much higher up the priority list for being plastic - some of the Warlord weapon upgrades are fairly essential really if you're running Warlords frequently in the game, whereas there's no need from a gaming perspective to field the resin knights - the plastic knight options are fine. Obviously the titan weapons are already resin now, so they're never going to be released in plastic. But there may be more weapon options in future - clearly there will be, in the case of the Warbringer - and I'd rather any available plastic production for AT got allocated to those things (and maybe corrupted titans when they come along). Plus new titans of course, although who knows on that one.

I think they really messed up the Warlord weapon sprues. Putting two of the same arm weapon on them was a bad mistake. They probably could have just done a sunfury and a bellicosa on the same sprue, maybe with one of each carapace weapon (since why do they need to be paired anyway?). Then the second sprue could have had the gatling and quake cannons, which might have had better designs in plastic.

 

The result is that Warlords are far more expensive than Reavers and Warhounds, because you need to buy resin guns for them. I've recently picked up a couple more quake cannons and a macro gatling, for my Psi-titan and Mortis force, and it's a bit annoying to have to keep getting them.

[Gattopardo]

Yes, I think you're right. It's not at all obvious why they ever made a sprue with two Belicosas on it, as a dual Belicosa warlord is a legitimately bad loadout and also not really very fun to play, so doesn't have any redeeming features really! The Sunfury sprue is obviously a bit better as it's got the claw as well, and double Sunfury is a viable loadout (though I think you said elsewhere that Gatling/Sunfury is better, and I agree - I've only tried the double Sunfury once, but the marginal improvement in high strength firepower was outweighed by the weaker shield stripping and finishing versus the Sunfury/Gatling combo).

 

I agree with your comment that it's annoying to keep having to buy the resin guns. I'm in the same situation myself. I need to buy a couple of extra guns to cover the bases for my Astorum warlords (as I want the option to run dual Quake and dual Gatling/Sunfury), and also need some options for my unbuilt Gore Crows Warlord. Basically I'm going to end up with loads of spare Belicosas and having spent loads of money on resin guns, on top of the cost of the Warlord kits. The cost of the resin stuff is what it is, but having all those spare Belicosas feels annoying.

[winterdyne]

Today I got photos done of my Legio Mortis maniple. I'll start a thread in this forum to keep track of it as multiple images posts are gonna get heavy.

 

[malika666]

Quick question, so we have a bunch of Titans mentioned in the background that don't have models yet (Rapier, Punisher, etc). I was wondering if this also goes for Knights. Are there Knight types mentioned in the background that don't have models/designs yet?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I don't think so, I just had a look at the old metal and plastic epic sculpts of knights, and all of those seemingly have been updated to 28mm scale, with many more types besides.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

"Achaeus" pattern knights have been mentioned in Inferno from the FW HH series, and I think the old epic slanneshi knights have been discussed, potentially actually as a basis for lighter Titan classes (specifically the subjugator iirc) 

[Noserenda]

We still have the Valiant/Castellan and Armigers too and possibly the Preceptor (Though thats a simple conversion if you have lascutters lying around) though i dont think that one has had 30k rules its almost certainly around in the era. 

A Sacristan forgeshrine could be interesting too, possibly as a battlefield asset stratagem model? Or definitely larger titan versions! 

[malika666]

"Achaeus" pattern knights have been mentioned in Inferno from the FW HH series, and I think the old epic slanneshi knights have been discussed, potentially actually as a basis for lighter Titan classes (specifically the subjugator iirc) 

What's especially interesting here is that the Achaeus is a whole different hull type, so like the Questoris or Cerastus. Very intrigued if GW/FW will expand on that.

[Noserenda]

Atrapos release article is up: 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/12/11/not-so-silent-knight-the-atrapos-is-here/

And it includes the rules card which is nice! Though it does cover up whether they have options or not. Im hoping they can run double lascutter because that gun is junk and i have lots of lascutters lying around i could convert a lancer or two with :) 

[Sherrypie]

Ouch, being around 100 points per knight is brutal even before possible weapon costs.

 

Actually, now that I noticed, the card simply says 200 points, not "200 points + weapons" like previous ones. Maybe they can swap them for free or have no options? There seems to be another box on the backside, implying there might be some options present.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Sherrypie

[SkimaskMohawk]

They're twice the cost of cerastus in my currency. That's some crazy juice they're drinking; these things are about the same size as a terminator and priced way, way steeper.

 

Them being locked into one of each weapon also means they're official one of the worst knights killing other knights out there. And the grav weapon is really still unimpressive.

Edited December 11, 2020 by SkimaskMohawk

[Mandragola]

I actually think these guys look about right at 200 points for 2. A Concussive gun is fantastic against other knights. It won't kill them but it'll take their orders off and leave them at -1 to hit. I think there's a pretty decent case for bringing a banner or two of these, possibly as freeblades to let them act independently of your lances. You could even put them on first fire to take other people's charge orders away.

 

Meanwhile their melee attack is about as good as that of a lancer, and they are a bit resistant to blasts, which are what generally kills knights. They don't give you the direct efficiency of lancers but they are an interesting unit, in my opinion.

 

Having said that, they aren't cheap to buy. The quality on the recent Questoris resin knights wasn't great, with some visible print lines. I'll wait to see some other people's knights before ordering any of these things, I think. Maybe the Asterion will be out by that time too. It's good that you'll only really need 2 of these, or just conceivably 4.

[Sherrypie]

They are interesting, but more as a toolbox choice than a core element in my opinion. You don't want to build most of your force from them, unlike you might do with the basic Cerastoi, but having some isn't a bad pick.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I actually think these guys look about right at 200 points for 2. A Concussive gun is fantastic against other knights. It won't kill them but it'll take their orders off and leave them at -1 to hit. I think there's a pretty decent case for bringing a banner or two of these, possibly as freeblades to let them act independently of your lances. You could even put them on first fire to take other people's charge orders away.

 

Meanwhile their melee attack is about as good as that of a lancer, and they are a bit resistant to blasts, which are what generally kills knights. They don't give you the direct efficiency of lancers but they are an interesting unit, in my opinion.

 

Having said that, they aren't cheap to buy. The quality on the recent Questoris resin knights wasn't great, with some visible print lines. I'll wait to see some other people's knights before ordering any of these things, I think. Maybe the Asterion will be out by that time too. It's good that you'll only really need 2 of these, or just conceivably 4.

Their gun has utility against knights, but their melee weapon is very weak against them. It's kind of the unfocussed problem the mechanicum knights have.

 

They are rather durable against every day weapons; plasma blast guns and volcano cannons can't explode them any more (unless your opponent makes a custom legio with macro charges), but I also feel like theyre awfully low on the target priority list and so that durability is a bit wasted.

 

I feel if they were pointed like lancers or the other cerastus they'd be more palatable.