Discussion on the new C:SM & Possible BT supplement

[Marshal Reinhard]

It's a bit too on the nose if not

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I'm reasonably sure the same thing was in the version 1 codex?

[Closet Skeleton]

 

Indeed.

 

Since you brought Vigilus up, my local WS manager mentioned yesterday that the vigilus supplement has effectively been mooted by the new C:SM and that most if not all of it's content is in the codex, can anyone confirm ?

Yeah, all the vigilus strats for intercessors are in the book. Including a version of Field Commander

 

 

Liberators isn't (the effect is but not as a stratagem).

 

Imperial Fists Siege force, the Crimson Fists thing and Sword Brethren aren't there either. Ultramarine Victrix Guard aren't in there stratagem wise but their relic is.

 

 

my intention is to slowly transition to a primaris-heavy army- particularly adding some reivers and/or hellblasters . also, what is the state of dreadnoughts this edition/codex?

 

Mainline Dreadnoughts in 8th are cheap decent light vehicles, kind of like the Carnifex of 4th edition. They perform okay but rarely shine. In the old book their main trick was acting as backup captains via the stratagem 'wisdom of the ancients'.

 

Heresy era Forge World dreads aren't in the codex but are well costed and powerful.

 

The new book has a stratagem that lets a dreadnought halve incoming damage for a phase which should let them absorb firepower but still won't make them last long.

 

 

There is a picture of a BT intercessor in the imperial fists successors section that says he is a member of a crusader squad.

 

Perhaps the rules will be in the IF supplement, or maybe even a BT supplement of their own one day!

A good catch from robbiew.

The intercessor shown is part of a Crusader squad. A sign of things to come or an oversight?

 

 

Or just something that's going to be kept to the fluff.

[Marshal Vespasian]

Mainline Dreadnoughts in 8th are cheap decent light vehicles, kind of like the Carnifex of 4th edition. They perform okay but rarely shine. In the old book their main trick was acting as backup captains via the stratagem 'wisdom of the ancients'.

 

Heresy era Forge World dreads aren't in the codex but are well costed and powerful.

 

The new book has a stratagem that lets a dreadnought halve incoming damage for a phase which should let them absorb firepower but still won't make them last long.

 

 

Points reductions will propably enable me to replace my two las/mis ven dreds with las/las contemptors. I am all about that :cuss.

Also I do own a Leviathan and I want to play a Leviathan / contemptor / contemptor list. Or Leviathan + lrc. He will soak all of the shots with the hakve dmg strat

[Acebaur]

True Liberators isn't, but you can get it from Chaplains now, you'll also notice I said Intercessor (ie: Indomitus) strats are in the new book, which they are. The chapter specific ones, you'll still have to refer to Vigilus 

[Marshal Reinhard]

If we do end up with our own supplement, the one BT specific few things in Vigilus will doubtless be in there

[Acebaur]

If we do end up with our own supplement, the one BT specific few things in Vigilus will doubtless be in there

Even if we don't I expect it to be there.

[Marshal Laeroth]

In my opinion, with the release of the temporary PDFs of our chapter unique units, its not an IF we get rules a supplement, but rather WHEN.  If we were getting squatted (extremely unlikely due to GW's stance on old models and their rules), they would not have gone through the effort of editing the data sheets of our special characters to be used with the new rules.

 

As far as my initial reactions of the new book...I like it.  I was hoping for a way to advance to the assault doctrine quicker, but we can make it work.  It just won't mesh as nicely with our regained drop pod alpha strikes.  The strategems seem a little lackluster, but there are definitely some gems in there.  Hammer of Wrath looks pretty sweet for Vanguard Veterans, especially if multi-charging or used against MSU/elite units.  I might have to take double units of these guys.  I like Steady Advance, especially with consideration of building Bolter blob Crusader squad units.  For Terminators, Fury of the First looks like it'll balance out the con's of thunder hammers without needing a captain babysitter.  Then of course, there are the Intercessor strategems, but those are situational to the list you built.  And our Vigilus strategems certainly.  But overall, I guess I am of the opinion that there is not a whole lot I need to have CP for.

 

I like the new idea around the Chaplain and its psuedo-psyker rules, but I am disappointed that it replaces the automatically on Litany of Hate.  Annoying that I have to choose between that and the other Litanies, plus having 33% chance of it not going off.  I love that steel rain is back.  Like really LOVE this.  Means we can play board manipulation games again.  Downside is that if you go second, and you are full DP, your opponent can potentially advance and block out a lot of the board with good spacing.  The new special rules are ridiculously good (Angels of Death) and even though the other armies get them, we can make better use of things like Shock Assault due to our chapter tactics.

 

Yes, it seems like the codex is starting to push towards primaris units, which isn't horrible.  But there is still a definite place for all of the "older" models in our collection.  In fact, I would still say a hefty chunk of our lists will be still rocking 50% or more standard marines.  Can we build competitive primaris only lists?  I believe that we can now.  But I also think we can build competitive non-primaris lists.  This is going to be a fun few months of list building.

[Medjugorje]

Yet at the same time, I could see Helbrecht as one of the pig-headed conservatives that would refuse on principle "do not alter the work of the emperor" etc etc.

 

If he gets primarized though I wonder if he gets his hand back.

 

no - that possibility is over since first SM-Codex in 8th Edition where Helbrecht pretty welcome the Primaris.

[Medjugorje]

It would be neat to actually have rules for both a "regular" and primaris EC.

 

but they Need to be much better then any other Company Champion or Chapter Champion I think.

 

 

btw - why always People Think that the new Codex will prefer Primaris? I think the most changes are as good for both and doesnt prefer anyone. There are a lot of stratagems for Primaris but for Firstborn too...

 

[BitsHammer]

I'm thinking with how forward the army likes to be, Auto Bolt Rifle might be the ticket for Intercessors right now. 3 shots, hitting on 4s if you ran (or auto hitting by spending CP), -1 AP under the Tactical Doctrine and basically encouraging us to get danger close to charge the next turn.

[Ciler]

I love that steel rain is back.  Like really LOVE this.

The tourney players in my area say that's a bad idea, as it gives mid-range units a way to insulate themselves from fire by locking a pod into CC (no danger since the pod can't strike back).

[Marshal Laeroth]

 

I love that steel rain is back.  Like really LOVE this.

The tourney players in my area say that's a bad idea, as it gives mid-range units a way to insulate themselves from fire by locking a pod into CC (no danger since the pod can't strike back).

 

 

Theoretically, yes.  However, that ignores the important aspect of the game -- mission objectives.  Its not all about killing stuff, at least in Nova/ITC formats.  Sure those enemy units can lock themselves in combat forever as protection, but when they decide to fall back eventually (or kill the pod), they cannot shoot/charge and are not in position because you decide where the pod dropped.  This means you dictate the layout of the board.  They also have locked their mobility down, so you can easily charge into those units yourself and not worry about overwatch.  Plus, you would think that your units coming down in the DP will clear out whatever is close to them or else why bother with it?

 

With all that being said, I did neglect to mention that I think the drop pod lists need to be built with Concealed Position units to buffer that problem.

[Acebaur]

@Marshal Laeroth:  Strategems are lackluster?!?  I'm honestly shocked to hear you say that. They are quite awesome, especially compared to the garbage we got last dex. 

 

Intercessors got just about all the Strats from Vigilus and without having to pay the tax for the detachment

 

Fury of the First is awesome. Think about this. Drop 10 Tactical TDA with a Chaplain on turn 2. Open up with 40 SB shots hitting on 2's and with AP -1  Then possibly get a charge off somewhere or not and then charge next turn with the chaplain giving a litany and effectively ignoring the penalty to hit with PF. 

 

Chapter Master got cheaper which is really nice

 

Duty Eternal is just bonkers, especially when you can use it on a Leviathan 

 

Gravitic along with the points drop may make Grav weapons deploying first turn with a pod a thing again. 

 

Big Guns Never Tire is PotMS on a stick

 

Relics of the Chapter is an improvement because now you don't have to pay 3CP for a second relic

 

Steady advance combined with some of the other Intercessor bolt weapon strats can be really powerful. 

 

Transhuman Physiology is a big one IMO. Now you can improve a unit's durability, like Assault TDA to keep them alive longer and killing more stuff. 

 

Vengeance of the Machine Spirit could be situationally awesome

 

 

There really isn't much to complain about at all in this dex IMO, especially the strats. They basically tossed all the old garbage ones and added new awesome ones. 

[Sete]

I'm certain now that Spanish Inquisitor rumour is correct.

It seems the supplements aren't a rapid fire release.

Let's see what's gonna happen.

[BitsHammer]

I'm certain now that Spanish Inquisitor rumour is correct.

It seems the supplements aren't a rapid fire release.

Let's see what's gonna happen.

Chunking it out might be better overall, even if it means stop gap rules for now.

[Marshal Laeroth]

@Marshal Laeroth:  Strategems are lackluster?!?  I'm honestly shocked to hear you say that. They are quite awesome, especially compared to the garbage we got last dex. 

 

Intercessors got just about all the Strats from Vigilus and without having to pay the tax for the detachment

 

Fury of the First is awesome. Think about this. Drop 10 Tactical TDA with a Chaplain on turn 2. Open up with 40 SB shots hitting on 2's and with AP -1  Then possibly get a charge off somewhere or not and then charge next turn with the chaplain giving a litany and effectively ignoring the penalty to hit with PF. 

 

Chapter Master got cheaper which is really nice

 

Duty Eternal is just bonkers, especially when you can use it on a Leviathan 

 

Gravitic along with the points drop may make Grav weapons deploying first turn with a pod a thing again. 

 

Big Guns Never Tire is PotMS on a stick

 

Relics of the Chapter is an improvement because now you don't have to pay 3CP for a second relic

 

Steady advance combined with some of the other Intercessor bolt weapon strats can be really powerful. 

 

Transhuman Physiology is a big one IMO. Now you can improve a unit's durability, like Assault TDA to keep them alive longer and killing more stuff. 

 

Vengeance of the Machine Spirit could be situationally awesome

 

 

There really isn't much to complain about at all in this dex IMO, especially the strats. They basically tossed all the old garbage ones and added new awesome ones. 

 

Note:  I said a "little" lackluster.  I agree, we have more to work with than we used to.  However, I am a little disappointed because there isn't anything that we can really sink our teeth into and build a list around, unless you are using a lot of Intercessor squads.

[ThirtySixNights]

Intercessor squads really have become the true Tactical Marines. Tactical squads and by extension crusader squads (until their new and hopefully way better datasheet/custom rules drop) are more like, weapons batteries with tonnes of overpriced wounds and a small number of heavy/special weapons.

[Medjugorje]

Intercessor squads really have become the true Tactical Marines. Tactical squads and by extension crusader squads (until their new and hopefully way better datasheet/custom rules drop) are more like, weapons batteries with tonnes of overpriced wounds and a small number of heavy/special weapons.

Lets see what Cruasader squads become. Maybe GW change them a bit.

[Sete]

@SpanishInquisitor, any more rumours from that French forum?

[Ciler]

@SpanishInquisitor, any more rumours from that French forum?

I would like to know as well, can you provide a link ?

[Link2edition]

I put together a drop pod alphastrike list to take advantage of the new rules. It can be found here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/357811-new-codex-black-templar-alphastrike-pods-2000-points-8cp/

That said I think the doctrines really favor Black Tide, so I might stick with that.

[Kyliadan]

Well, as a matter of fact, in the UM supplement, named characters are bound to a warlord trait (a different one for each of them). I haven't read the White Scars supplement yet, but I'd wager it's the same deal.

So, until our updated rules are released, Helbrecht is, RAW (or rather, unwritten), free to choose as you did, but I believe this will be short-lived.

 

And to speculate a bit further, Calgar is forced to take the trait found in the main codex... which leads me to conclude Helbrecht will have oathkeeper :/

[Link2edition]

Well, as a matter of fact, in the UM supplement, named characters are bound to a warlord trait (a different one for each of them). I haven't read the White Scars supplement yet, but I'd wager it's the same deal.

So, until our updated rules are released, Helbrecht is, RAW (or rather, unwritten), free to choose as you did, but I believe this will be short-lived.

 

And to speculate a bit further, Calgar is forced to take the trait found in the main codex... which leads me to conclude Helbrecht will have oathkeeper :/

Not  a big deal, next tourney is the 24th.

Once we have a supplement I can run a slash captain instead.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Well, as a matter of fact, in the UM supplement, named characters are bound to a warlord trait (a different one for each of them). I haven't read the White Scars supplement yet, but I'd wager it's the same deal.

So, until our updated rules are released, Helbrecht is, RAW (or rather, unwritten), free to choose as you did, but I believe this will be short-lived.

 

And to speculate a bit further, Calgar is forced to take the trait found in the main codex... which leads me to conclude Helbrecht will have oathkeeper :/

Except, I don't think he can take Sword master thanks to the restrictions in Vigilus... Damn.