New Codex - Math for Thought; Bad, Good or In-Between?

[Helias_Tancred]

A real possibility, GW uses the excuse our dudes didn't pass the Rubicon.

 

Very easy (and horribly cheesy) way to cease production *cough* I meant kill off characters of their choosing.

[Brother Tyler]

 

A real possibility, GW uses the excuse our dudes didn't pass the Rubicon.

 

Very easy (and horribly cheesy) way to cease production *cough* I meant kill off characters of their choosing.

 

Not to mention realistic to the lore. It would be even more cheesy if the majority of special characters were able to survive the transformation from legacy into Primaris. Besides, there is over a century of warfare for these characters to have to survive. It doesn't seem reasonable that every character would even survive that.

 

Besides, even if GW does kill off old characters via failing to survive the transformation, that wouldn't prevent them from introducing replacement Primaris characters. I would much rather see that occur.

 

For GW to simply have every (or even most) legacy character survive the transformation from legacy to Primaris would be nothing more than pandering to the players that are too emotionally invested in "their" characters to accept the more immersive alternatives.

[Sete]

Yeah but then why half Calgar and a weakened Tigurius managed to survive and Grimaldus not?

It's a can of worms, and it would reek of favouritism.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Honestly, the killing off of named special characters should be kept to chapters that have an abundance of them begin with only, in that case. 

 

In the space marine codex that's limited to one chapter (perhaps more if we look at the big 3...  haven't kept count of the number of special characters they have but perhaps you could be a candidate for this reasoning if you already have more than what, five?...)

 

But to sacrifice say the Salamanders' He'stan, or Imperial Fists' Lysander, or Raven Guards' Shrike when they're the one character they have in the Codex, to satisfy someone sense of lore satisfaction that the transformation must fail sometimes so it justifies it being dangerous? I just find the notion distasteful. Each of these chapters instead deserve to have a new character or two added, not taken away.

 

BT's for their part have 2 such character (with the third that can't really be counted in this discussion) and I'm not willing to give up either because someone else feels it's 'cheesy' that they both made it. 

 

Most chapters have in lore named characters that never had a model, I think those would be a much easier swallow for candidates that didn't make it. Even if you put a small random number of the ultras' boys on the chopping block, you're gonna piss someone off.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Reinhard, I understand the argument you're making and it's not a bad point by any means.

 

But.

 

As Bro T said, Space Marines die. Whether it's in battle or during the Rubicon process, characters like Shrike and He'stan are going to die sometime. As 40K transitioned from setting to story with the Gathering Storm books, I foresaw this being an issue. We're now as much as 200-300 years past the fall of Cadia, putting people like Shrike near or past the 500 year old mark which is well past middle age for them.

 

As a longtime BattleTech fan, this is something I've experienced in that fandom. Characters die. Even Space Marines suffer the ravages of time (unless you're Dante, apparently) and new heroes rise to take their place. If say, Helbrecht dies, do not fret; a new High Marshal will take his place and probably have glorious lore and awesome rules because GW *wants* you to buy his model.

 

I mean, unless it's Grimaldus. If he dies, we riot.

[Sete]

Kill Calgar, or Dante, Ragnar, or Azrael, them I'm willing to let Helbrecth die.

 

Those chapters have loads of caracthers, so put them first on the chopping block ;)

[Marshal Reinhard]

Honestly, them dying in battle is a lot easier to swallow than just saying "well, someone had to not make the primarization process"...

 

EDIT: I mean, if he dies in battle, there's a story there. The continuation and culmination of the story of that character. By contrast, just selecting a random number to "not have made the process", its just satisfying an arbitrary quota...

[Ishagu]

I think BT need a Primaris Helbrecht and Grimaldus.

 

As for the Emperor's champion, he could be supported as a build your own hero using relics and a strat, provided an upgrade kit provides a suitable sword and a few pieces.

[Sete]

For example if Helbrecth faced of Ghaz got wrecked in interred in a dread, (and becoming a named dread) it's a lot more palatable than, he died on the table.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

...its just satisfying an arbitrary quota...

This is fiction. Everything is arbitrary.

[Jacques Corbin]

 

...its just satisfying an arbitrary quota...

This is fiction. Everything is arbitrary.

How soon we all forget...

 

I appreciate the idea of heroes dying, and new ones stepping up. Just give the heroes a good death. No Primaris heroes emerging from the ranks, after centuries of warfare, kind of makes the case for Primaris haters, because if they are so much better, then why are they unable to forge their own legacies?

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

...its just satisfying an arbitrary quota...

This is fiction. Everything is arbitrary.

 

 

There's a world of difference in picking a character to die as a result of an ongoing story (like that blood angels captain, Tycho, who got disfigured and wore a mask way back in the second war for Armageddon then got taken up in the death company then finally died during the third war for armageddon) VS just "we just need a random selection to just go now because otherwise others have determined that the concept that primarization is a dangerous is not being sold well"

 

And this is not even me saying a sudden death is beyond limits either.

 

Also you don't really have a dog in this race anyway

 

 

 

...its just satisfying an arbitrary quota...

This is fiction. Everything is arbitrary.

How soon we all forget...

 

I appreciate the idea of heroes dying, and new ones stepping up. Just give the heroes a good death. No Primaris heroes emerging from the ranks, after centuries of warfare, kind of makes the case for Primaris haters, because if they are so much better, then why are they unable to forge their own legacies?

 

 

Some chapters retaining their often single (!) existing special character is and should not be in some kind of mutual exclusivity with them getting new Primaris ones. The issue is that GW have been too stingy with giving these chapters such heroes and models to begin with.

 

 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

My dog in this race is the thousands of dollars and man-hours I've put into the hobby. I'm not here for just my chosen factions, I'm here for the game itself. If the game isn't healthy it's not being played, and if it's not being played what's the point? I'm selling off all my War Machine stuff for a reason.

 

It is my opinion that some characters need to die. It doesn't matter how they die though obviously we all want to see our heroes go out like bosses rather than wilt away on a slab. I'm not arguing the point because I feel they need to "make room" for Primaris characters, I'm doing it because Space Marines are neither invulnerable nor immortal. It's a story progression issue. I think Calgar should have been put down by Abe on Vigilus and *at best* gotten the Dreadnought treatment if not sent off with a hero's death. Rubicon certain characters with that indomitable will to survive like Dante and Grimaldus, leave others be in the current state like Shrike, and yet others should be earn the Emperor's Peace and their tolling of the Bell of Lost Souls.

 

It gives weight to the narrative when people die or the protagonists lose a fight.

[MajorNese]

Characters killed off? Considering how GW operates on the "sure, that combo is fluffy, as we've written a single sentence just about that" principle, I don't see them killing off characters they could be selling models for. Kill off Shrike, and new players won't buy Shrike any more. Kill off Shrike while crossing the rubicon, and old players will hate primaris even more than before. For what? To say "It's dangerous, and your guy is not heroic enough"? Nah, those guys have Plot Armour. Generic dudes die to such generic threats, like Shrike's predecessor (no model, died quickly on paper so Shrike could be promoted).

 

Recent publications had mortal enemies of the same faction band together to appear in a warzone, just to justify a player buying both character A and character B.

Now that GW released Calgar/Tiggy/Khan as primaris and have a supplement for each First Founding chapter on the way, I can totally see GW revamping the remaining existing characters (one per chapter) as primaris just to say "This guy you've loved for years is now primaris too, so go for primaris!!!". Quite a few players still stay away from primaris (for quite a few reasons), if GW tempts those players to cross that rubicon it has much more impact than just saying "This is a generic nice model, but nothing close to your heart, skip it like the other primaris releases".

 

Also the oldmarine versions are old metal/finecast versions, nothing they'll support forever.

The only new named character might be the IH one, considering there has never been a named IH character before. I quite see them do specialist ranks (like Emperor's Champion or DA/BA ones), but my money would be on the rubicon'd version of existing named characters first.

[Marshal Reinhard]

My dog in this race is the thousands of dollars and man-hours I've put into the hobby. I'm not here for just my chosen factions, I'm here for the game itself. If the game isn't healthy it's not being played, and if it's not being played what's the point? I'm selling off all my War Machine stuff for a reason.

 

It is my opinion that some characters need to die. It doesn't matter how they die though obviously we all want to see our heroes go out like bosses rather than wilt away on a slab. I'm not arguing the point because I feel they need to "make room" for Primaris characters, I'm doing it because Space Marines are neither invulnerable nor immortal. It's a story progression issue. I think Calgar should have been put down by Abe on Vigilus and *at best* gotten the Dreadnought treatment if not sent off with a hero's death. Rubicon certain characters with that indomitable will to survive like Dante and Grimaldus, leave others be in the current state like Shrike, and yet others should be earn the Emperor's Peace and their tolling of the Bell of Lost Souls.

 

It gives weight to the narrative when people die or the protagonists lose a fight.

 

I guess the key point we disagree on is that to me it most definately does matter how they die. The rest I pretty much agree on.

 

Kill off a bunch characters during this new upcoming psychic witchening event or whatever rather than having a lottery of who gets killed by 'not having what it takes'. 

 

I think i'd prefer every single one of them dying to that (or any other scenario) than the rubicon lottery option.The special characters are supposed to be not your run of the mill marines, that's what supposedly makes them special.

 

Heck even having the process going horribly wrong, resulting in the special character going insane and becoming a heretic is preferable to just, "naw it ended here because of the update lottery". The latter will always reek of "we just didn't want to bother spending the resources to update the model, so"

[Lemondish]

 

 

Even if all chapter only x units are removed from we are at 75 not 76 datasheets. Which means either an index unit is non-Index, we have two Phobos liutanent datasheets. Or there is one more unit not announced yet. And finally; there is highly/very likely there WILL not be any unique/chapter specific units in here.

 

Admittedly I glossed over the math on the number of data sheets, but it sounds like your count of 75 is NOT including Guiliman?

 

If that's the case then I suspect that he would be your missing datasheet; because while he may be an ultramarine, he is also Lord Commander of the IMPERIUM, not just Ultramar. Guardsmen, knights, mechancius and indeed ALL who fight for the imperium benefit from his glorious presence and inspiring command, so why would he not be in the main codex?

 

just my two cents.

There are 17 Chapter specific data sheets in the last Codex. That Codex also rocked 85 total sheets. If you remove those 17, add back in the 9 new ones (from Shadowspear, the new tank, and these new kits), you actually come out with 77.

 

Thus, one sheet needs to be consolidated, removed, or sent to a supplement. I expect it'll be Captain on Bike.

[Lemondish]

But.

 

As Bro T said, Space Marines die. Whether it's in battle or during the Rubicon process, characters like Shrike and He'stan are going to die sometime.

Sure, and they do - all the time. Don't make the mistake that the only named characters in a Chapter are those with models

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Remember the example of Xavier...

[Brother Tyler]

...and Cortez...

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Did Cortez die? Or did his god awful model just get quietly forgotten?

[Beta galactosidase]

Sgt. Naaman from the dark angels book was also dead. Lysander had a model while captured, presumed dead. Tycho had death company rules, rules from before he was death company, and was also dead so neither version was current. Solar Macharius was always described as being dead right in his entry, Eldrad was dead while actually being the most common walking farseer model that anyone used due to the Perils rules of the time.

 

If anything it’s a rule that some percentage of the characters should be historical or dead characters, and GW don’t follow it enough.

 

Edit: cortez was MIA and “rumored to still be alive” in his entry. I.e. it was implied he was dead and a legend had been made out of him by his comrades.

[MajorNese]

Naaman is a bad example in that regard - the story behind that character was (as far as I've heard) based on a game played by the designers. The good old "that model did something awesome" syndrome, just expanded the "died blowing up a dredd" into a unit entry. Which doesn't really work without declaring that guy dead.

 

Nonetheless, in recent times GW hasn't really killed off anyone with a model. Calgar "dying" on the table just to jump back up half a sentence later was the closest in this edition, and Sicarius got "lost in the warp" just pave the way for a new book. "Paper only" models like the previous RG chapter master are expendable in contrast.

[Schlitzaf]

 

 

 

Even if all chapter only x units are removed from we are at 75 not 76 datasheets. Which means either an index unit is non-Index, we have two Phobos liutanent datasheets. Or there is one more unit not announced yet. And finally; there is highly/very likely there WILL not be any unique/chapter specific units in here.

 

Admittedly I glossed over the math on the number of data sheets, but it sounds like your count of 75 is NOT including Guiliman?

 

If that's the case then I suspect that he would be your missing datasheet; because while he may be an ultramarine, he is also Lord Commander of the IMPERIUM, not just Ultramar. Guardsmen, knights, mechancius and indeed ALL who fight for the imperium benefit from his glorious presence and inspiring command, so why would he not be in the main codex?

 

just my two cents.

There are 17 Chapter specific data sheets in the last Codex. That Codex also rocked 85 total sheets. If you remove those 17, add back in the 9 new ones from Shadowspear, the new tank, and these new kits, you actually come out with 77.

 

Thus, one sheet needs to be consolidated, removed, or sent to a supplement. I expect it'll be Captain on Bike.

There only six datasheets in Shadowspear?

Suppressor

Eliminator

Infilitrators

Liu

Lib

Cpt

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

 

Even if all chapter only x units are removed from we are at 75 not 76 datasheets. Which means either an index unit is non-Index, we have two Phobos liutanent datasheets. Or there is one more unit not announced yet. And finally; there is highly/very likely there WILL not be any unique/chapter specific units in here.

 

Admittedly I glossed over the math on the number of data sheets, but it sounds like your count of 75 is NOT including Guiliman?

 

If that's the case then I suspect that he would be your missing datasheet; because while he may be an ultramarine, he is also Lord Commander of the IMPERIUM, not just Ultramar. Guardsmen, knights, mechancius and indeed ALL who fight for the imperium benefit from his glorious presence and inspiring command, so why would he not be in the main codex?

 

just my two cents.

There are 17 Chapter specific data sheets in the last Codex. That Codex also rocked 85 total sheets. If you remove those 17, add back in the 9 new ones from Shadowspear, the new tank, and these new kits, you actually come out with 77.

 

Thus, one sheet needs to be consolidated, removed, or sent to a supplement. I expect it'll be Captain on Bike.

There only six datasheets in Shadowspear?

Suppressor

Eliminator

Infilitrators

Liu

Lib

Cpt

Yep, but 9 new datasheets to add between the 6 in Shadowspear, the new Repulsor Executioner, the new warsuit and the new transport.

 

Could have made that clearer - my bad.

[Captain Idaho]

Eh I think GW shouldn't Primaris ANY characters. It's just dishonest when they say they're keeping Classic Marines around. Besides it's also rather unoriginal.

 

***

I think stuff we'll see go includes:

 

- Honour Guard

- Chapter Champion

- Chapter Ancient