New Codex - Math for Thought; Bad, Good or In-Between?

[FlamingDeth]

-Grimaldus is (beside Lemartes and to my subjecitve feeling before Asmodei and Cassius) the most iconic Chaplain of all Astartes

 

It's not hard to beat out Asmodai, he's the embodiment of all bad Dark Angels writing everywhere.

[Medjugorje]

 

-Grimaldus is (beside Lemartes and to my subjecitve feeling before Asmodei and Cassius) the most iconic Chaplain of all Astartes

It's not hard to beat out Asmodai, he's the embodiment of all bad Dark Angels writing everywhere.

 

i like his charakter... thats the 40k Charakters we need in this universe. 

[Panzer]

I like Asmodai because his character is so ridiculously single-minded. He's the problem child that gets tolerated because it gets :cuss done. :D

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Apparently I missed something. Would one of you Poe-ish chaps remind me why Shrike and the RG are so out of synch with each other?

[Claws and Effect]

Apparently I missed something. Would one of you Poe-ish chaps remind me why Shrike and the RG are so out of synch with each other?

In 8th edition the Raven Guard really want to keep their enemies at a distance as much as possible to leverage their Chapter Tactic.

 

Shrike is a character who literally cannot fight at all outside of melee. He doesn't even have a bolt pistol anymore. He gives rerolls to failed charges for other jump pack units, but since we didn't get anything that makes us better in melee we can really only pick on units that want to be in melee even less than us.

 

Our "iconic" unit of Vanguard Veterans with claws is decent against infantry, but just crumbles against an actual dedicated melee unit. And hammers and shields are too expensive to stick on 1 wound models.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

Apparently I missed something. Would one of you Poe-ish chaps remind me why Shrike and the RG are so out of synch with each other?

In 8th edition the Raven Guard really want to keep their enemies at a distance as much as possible to leverage their Chapter Tactic.

 

Shrike is a character who literally cannot fight at all outside of melee. He doesn't even have a bolt pistol anymore. He gives rerolls to failed charges for other jump pack units, but since we didn't get anything that makes us better in melee we can really only pick on units that want to be in melee even less than us.

 

Our "iconic" unit of Vanguard Veterans with claws is decent against infantry, but just crumbles against an actual dedicated melee unit. And hammers and shields are too expensive to stick on 1 wound models.

 

 

And then couple that with nerfing deepstrike and strike from the shadows so it's far harder to get into combat quickly. He also just doesn't get the chapter trait unless he's being shot at by snipers. 

[Panzer]

You see, I never understood this line of thought. The chapter tactic works perfectly fine to protect your guys on their way into melee. The distance required for it to not work anymore is the exact same distance where you can start declaring charges. Once in melee your guys are immune to shooting anyway.

The real problem is that vanilla Marines just aren't that good in melee, however that's a problem every chapter suffers from, not just Raven Guard and Shrike.

[Lemondish]

 

Apparently I missed something. Would one of you Poe-ish chaps remind me why Shrike and the RG are so out of synch with each other?

In 8th edition the Raven Guard really want to keep their enemies at a distance as much as possible to leverage their Chapter Tactic.

 

Shrike is a character who literally cannot fight at all outside of melee. He doesn't even have a bolt pistol anymore. He gives rerolls to failed charges for other jump pack units, but since we didn't get anything that makes us better in melee we can really only pick on units that want to be in melee even less than us.

 

Our "iconic" unit of Vanguard Veterans with claws is decent against infantry, but just crumbles against an actual dedicated melee unit. And hammers and shields are too expensive to stick on 1 wound models.

In short, it's a combination of issues that produce a scenario where melee isn't as efficient at engaging the foe compared to shooting, so the melee Chapter Master is seen as weak and ineffective.

 

Shock Assault will help melee, but Primaris Vanguard Vets could do so much more.

[Claws and Effect]

You see, I never understood this line of thought. The chapter tactic works perfectly fine to protect your guys on their way into melee. The distance required for it to not work anymore is the exact same distance where you can start declaring charges. Once in melee your guys are immune to shooting anyway.

The real problem is that vanilla Marines just aren't that good in melee, however that's a problem every chapter suffers from, not just Raven Guard and Shrike.

The Chapter Tactic is mostly useless to Shrike himself, not the Chapter as a whole.

 

Unless you're an idiot and leave him in the open by himself he won't be targeted by anything but snipers. Once he's stuck in melee where he wants to be, the Tactic is useless.

 

Raven Guard characters in general don't get much benefit from the Tactic because any savvy Raven Guard player will keep them where they can't be easily shot at.

[Panzer]

 

You see, I never understood this line of thought. The chapter tactic works perfectly fine to protect your guys on their way into melee. The distance required for it to not work anymore is the exact same distance where you can start declaring charges. Once in melee your guys are immune to shooting anyway.

The real problem is that vanilla Marines just aren't that good in melee, however that's a problem every chapter suffers from, not just Raven Guard and Shrike.

The Chapter Tactic is mostly useless to Shrike himself, not the Chapter as a whole.

 

Unless you're an idiot and leave him in the open by himself he won't be targeted by anything but snipers. Once he's stuck in melee where he wants to be, the Tactic is useless.

 

Raven Guard characters in general don't get much benefit from the Tactic because any savvy Raven Guard player will keep them where they can't be easily shot at.

 

 

Yeah but many subfaction rules are basically useless for single characters.

Tell me how much Imperial Fist characters benefit from ignoring cover and getting additional hits with Bolters on a 6. Or +1Ld and the ability to fall back and shoot. Or Overwatch on 5+ for Ethereals. And so on.

 

The argument though was not that Shrike doesn't benefit from the chapter tactic directly. The argument was that there's a disconnect with Shrike being a melee unit and the chapter tactic making the rest of the army wanting to stay far away from the enemy which I just don't see.

That's a similar line of thought some Blood Angels players have who want to go for all melee all the time because of the chapter tactic. A healthy mix is the way to go. Blood Angels should take lots of shooty units despite the chapter tactic not supporting it just as Raven Guard can go for melee even if it isn't the instinctive choice with a chapter tactic that works at 12+" range.

[chapter master 454]

Bit uncreative to say the RG don't benefit from their CT for more aggressive uses. The issue isn't that it doesn't work with melee (In fact, many Eldar lists I built use alaitoc to help boost the defence of units I want to reach melee) but the matter of how bad our melee SUCKS. Like...seriously...how does what i can only assume 2-3 tons of metal and pure muscle that barrels towards you faster then usian bolt not just outright run over anything that isn't equally armoured, massive or outright a tank (and even then, pretty sure a marine could win that contest!) not to mention if it were jump troopers (now that same 2-3 tons is now FALLING on you at speeds exceeding our typical terminal velocity and is about to make mario look like a novice at goomba stomping!) however somehow, they don't. They run in, politely stop and go "Oh hello chaps, mind a spot of that fisty cuffs? Or Swordy Stabby? Whichever I can do both good sir"

 

Shock assault does seem to be addressing this but really the issue is we don't have good melee units. Though that being said, I do find Vetersessors hilarious with shock assault now. (we started at base 2, sergeant at 3. Now on the charge, vetersessors  have 4 attacks base and with chainsword the sergeant has 6).

 

As far as range goes, it is one of our strongest suits while melee was something we weren't really bad at just...wasn't a good plan to base our attack on. I mean, if we had a unit like banshees then we could talk. Then again, we have white scars CT now so we may be getting somewhere.

[quasistellar]

 

 

You see, I never understood this line of thought. The chapter tactic works perfectly fine to protect your guys on their way into melee. The distance required for it to not work anymore is the exact same distance where you can start declaring charges. Once in melee your guys are immune to shooting anyway.

The real problem is that vanilla Marines just aren't that good in melee, however that's a problem every chapter suffers from, not just Raven Guard and Shrike.

The Chapter Tactic is mostly useless to Shrike himself, not the Chapter as a whole.

 

Unless you're an idiot and leave him in the open by himself he won't be targeted by anything but snipers. Once he's stuck in melee where he wants to be, the Tactic is useless.

 

Raven Guard characters in general don't get much benefit from the Tactic because any savvy Raven Guard player will keep them where they can't be easily shot at.

 

 

Yeah but many subfaction rules are basically useless for single characters.

 

 

Well, if Iron Hands get a Dreadnought character, that would just check all the boxes :D

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

 

 

 

You see, I never understood this line of thought. The chapter tactic works perfectly fine to protect your guys on their way into melee. The distance required for it to not work anymore is the exact same distance where you can start declaring charges. Once in melee your guys are immune to shooting anyway.

The real problem is that vanilla Marines just aren't that good in melee, however that's a problem every chapter suffers from, not just Raven Guard and Shrike.

The Chapter Tactic is mostly useless to Shrike himself, not the Chapter as a whole.

 

Unless you're an idiot and leave him in the open by himself he won't be targeted by anything but snipers. Once he's stuck in melee where he wants to be, the Tactic is useless.

 

Raven Guard characters in general don't get much benefit from the Tactic because any savvy Raven Guard player will keep them where they can't be easily shot at.

Yeah but many subfaction rules are basically useless for single characters.

Well, if Iron Hands get a Dreadnought character, that would just check all the boxes :D

Chaplain Dread is still a thing. The model was discontinued, but it's not hard to convert one.

[RandomMarine]

I converted culln the risen into a IH HQ when you could stack fnp. He was a beast then and now he's gonna be a absolute monster.