What are you looking forward to most in the RG supplement?

[Cryptix]

Any detachment can choose to use Umbramancy instead of the normal psychic powers, and any librarian in that detachment can take from it.

[CCE1981]

So, anybody know if the Phobos Librarian can take Umbramancy, or not?

 

Also, anybody else thinking of using Shadow Step to move an Apothecary around the board?

In both the Ultramarines and White Scars Supplements, the Supplement powers were available to Phobos Librarians. It’s very likely that the other four Supplements will follow.

[Bluflash]

I think I'd only bother with an apothecary if I was bringing centurions or agreessors.

[SyNidus]

Does anyone have math on grav centurions? I’ve got 6 sitting on the shelf and i’m thinking of bringing them in using our deep strike stratagem.

 

Of course the problem with that is that i don’t know how good the guns are vs t7, t8 targets.

[Dracos]

With the Super Doctrine. If I wasn’t so committed to Aggressors I could seeing going that direction in a heartbeat

[SkimaskMohawk]

You wound about 55% of the time after using the grav stratagem and get 2-3 damage about 88% of the time.

 

With the doctrine at say a knight or character dread or daemon primarch you jump up to a 75% wound rate. Some good stuff for sure.

[superwill]

I think if I was going to do an alpha-strike grav drop I might go grav devs instead of centurions. Even with the -1 penalty, you’re shooting 3 times at 3+ (cents) vs 3 times at 4+ and 2 times at 3+ (devs), but the devs also cost 150 instead of 240. Obviously they’ve got worse defence, Raven Guard’s defensive style is often to crush the enemy fast rather than to dig in with heavy armour. (Or maybe I tell myself that because I’m a typical alpha-striker).

 

Does anyone else find umbramancy really disappointing? Nothing there which really interests me. Not just the classic waste of two slots with “smite 2.0”, but even the other 4. I find the classic Phobos ones a lot more interesting, but that’s just personal style.

 

Overall I’m giving the supp a 7/10. Some big wins, some missed opportunities. Vengeance of Istvaan, Ambushing Fire, a bunch of others and especially Decapitating Blow, are all great ideas but so terribly executed that they’ll basically never be used.

 

For anyone looking to play snipers, RG will definitely be the way to go. For just about anything else (even jump pack troops, BA are miles ahead even without the update and even WS are probably ahead) there are going to be others who do it better. Shrike is a bit of a disappointment - I actually love the new model and already have it preordered, but a little disappointing to not get anything new, not really have any strats he’ll benefit much from (no way of getting bonus strength is very sad) and to still suffer from the same dilemma of his aura and his WLT being in competition with each other. My answer will just be to make someone else the WL and give them the no-OW bonus.

[Claws and Effect]

Shrike potentially moving 40" in a turn is nice, but I'm not going to hang my hat on it, as it will likely need 2 different Psychic powers to go off in order to work properly. And it would require 2 Librarians to do since our other relics are good enough I'd be reluctant to use one of the 3 possible selections on Tome of Malcador.

 

It also puts Shrike out in the open, probably by himself. He's not durable enough to survive that.

 

Yeah, it would be pretty awesome when it works, but there's too many things that can go wrong with it to rely on it as a strategy that you have to commit rather a lot to.

[Closet Skeleton]

Umbramancy has the Genestealer Cult hypnosis power, that's really useful. Shadowstep is great in Maelstrom when you often end up with a card that neither you or your enemy are anywhere near.

 

Problem with the Ultras is that Iron Hands play similar to them but better.

No movement penalties (but from turn 1). Better firepower, more durable, they even get a relic to recover CP on a 5+

 

Ultramarines doctrine seems better than the Iron hands one to me since its more general which makes sense. Ultramarines get the best normal mobility while Raven Guard and White Scars get the shenanigans.

 

 

 

And it would require 2 Librarians to do since our other relics are good enough I'd be reluctant to use one of the 3 possible selections on Tome of Malcador.
 

 

The new space marine codex has no relic limit.

[Dracos]

Shrike potentially moving 40" in a turn is nice, but I'm not going to hang my hat on it, as it will likely need 2 different Psychic powers to go off in order to work properly. And it would require 2 Librarians to do since our other relics are good enough I'd be reluctant to use one of the 3 possible selections on Tome of Malcador.

It also puts Shrike out in the open, probably by himself. He's not durable enough to survive that.

Yeah, it would be pretty awesome when it works, but there's too many things that can go wrong with it to rely on it as a strategy that you have to commit rather a lot to.

I agree it has a lot of moving parts but I think the trick is building a list that can use it but not depend on it. Strong believer in setting up units and strategies that can shift to the situation. At 150 points he can do a lot. Even his standard movement gives him a versatility other Chapter Masters can’t match and that’s before stratagems and psychic powers. He’s not just a beat stick. I like one idea of him dropping T2 buffing a “screen” of plasmaceptors. Or Infiltrating a big squad of Aggressors 12” before T1 begins buffing T1 and T2 then assaulting or taking that 14” and practically redeploying. Just too many variables to ponder right now. :)

[superwill]

I guess my question right now would be, what does RG do better than our brother chapters?

 

To me there’s only one clear answer so far - we can snipe characters better. Everything else there seems to be better options:

- Gunline is much better supported by IH or Ultras, for many reasons (they both have far superior stratagems, powers, characters, WLT, relics, doctrines for gunlines)

- Mobility, speed and close quarters WS and BA are both miles ahead. More reliable charges, more damage when they do.

- Deepstrike drop, whether melee or shooty, other chapters will do it better.

- Even most individual units like librarians or beatstick characters or artillery or anything, it seems hard to imagine why they wouldn’t just be better off as something else.

 

The most disappointing thing for me is that as effective as sniping characters can/could be, its kind of a moot point even against a lot of armies who are character dependant. I used to run a highly successful Custodes list that was built around a Vexilla Magnifica and Trajann. As character dependant as it gets - kill them and I’ll have a very hard time winning. But, my #1 priority against any kind of snipers (even a small amount, letalone an army whose main [only?] strength is snipers) would be to make LoS impossible. Deploy them in buildings, or behind tanks, or whatever, but hide them. Yes many competitive armies rely on aura bubbles, but surely in most competitive games they will be able to simply stick their characters in buildings/ruins and bubble around that, right? And our non-LoS sniper options seem very average, taking several turns to kill even a weak character.

 

I love the fluff they’ve aimed for, and I think it would have been cool alongside some other kind of strength or even two, but it just seems like our one strength really doesn’t have a lot of practical application in competitive 40k. Would love to hear different opinions, and of course these are all just initial reactions.

[Claws and Effect]

I guess my question right now would be, what does RG do better than our brother chapters?

 

To me there’s only one clear answer so far - we can snipe characters better. Everything else there seems to be better options:

- Gunline is much better supported by IH or Ultras, for many reasons (they both have far superior stratagems, powers, characters, WLT, relics, doctrines for gunlines)

- Mobility, speed and close quarters WS and BA are both miles ahead. More reliable charges, more damage when they do.

- Deepstrike drop, whether melee or shooty, other chapters will do it better.

- Even most individual units like librarians or beatstick characters or artillery or anything, it seems hard to imagine why they wouldn’t just be better off as something else.

 

The most disappointing thing for me is that as effective as sniping characters can/could be, its kind of a moot point even against a lot of armies who are character dependant. I used to run a highly successful Custodes list that was built around a Vexilla Magnifica and Trajann. As character dependant as it gets - kill them and I’ll have a very hard time winning. But, my #1 priority against any kind of snipers (even a small amount, letalone an army whose main [only?] strength is snipers) would be to make LoS impossible. Deploy them in buildings, or behind tanks, or whatever, but hide them. Yes many competitive armies rely on aura bubbles, but surely in most competitive games they will be able to simply stick their characters in buildings/ruins and bubble around that, right? And our non-LoS sniper options seem very average, taking several turns to kill even a weak character.

 

I love the fluff they’ve aimed for, and I think it would have been cool alongside some other kind of strength or even two, but it just seems like our one strength really doesn’t have a lot of practical application in competitive 40k. Would love to hear different opinions, and of course these are all just initial reactions.

If you're keeping your characters out of LOS at all time because of the threat of having them sniped....then just the existence of said snipers has dictated your strategy. And that has value in itself.

 

They either die, or you go out of your way to protect them, which means you aren't the one controlling the flow of the game.

[Nusquam]

RG can also deepstrike things, namely primaris, that other chapters cant. Like a bunch of Hellbasters for a 15" rapid fire at AP-5 into things.

 

Also killing knights better cant be understated. even mass fire wounding on 5+ is deadly.

[duz_]

Overcharging hellblasters in Tactical doctrines will be hitting and wounding character IKs on 2+/3+ :D :lol:

[dode74]

Use Heavy Plasma Incinerators and it's 2+/2+ with 2D per shot...

[Jacques Corbin]

I think I'd only bother with an apothecary if I was bringing centurions or agreessors.

Yes, Primaris Chaplain, Hero of the Chapter to get Master of Ambush, without actually being warlord, and a unit of 6 dakka Aggressors. If Chappy is preaching Catechism of Fire, then they will RIP whatever is in front of them to shreds. And, Master of Ambush is redeployment, not movement, since it happens before turn 1, so the Aggressors shoot twice.

 

Also, anyone else loving the Stranglehold stratagem?

[Archon_77]

 

*snip*

 

Also, anyone else loving the Stranglehold stratagem?

 

 

 

Loved it at first, but read a little deeper and I dont like:

 

1)  Is first turn ONLY

2)  We need 5+ to pull it off

3)  Cost is a little too high for my blood. . . 2cp hurts when we have SO MANY options

[Jacques Corbin]

Yes, but, it causes your opponent to consider which stratagems he uses for that turn. It is still a 1 in 3 chance to force him to spend one more CP, or the stratagem fails. Besides, that may be enough to cause some opponents to just not spend any CP first turn, either way, worth it.

[Archon_77]

Agreed, the ability to use it to backfoot an opponent is nice, but how many things will they WANT to do 1st turn that they can't also do 2nd?  What about armies that have a ton of extra cp?  Guard comes to mind.. they wont care at all if a 2CP costs 3 when they have 14-15.

[thewarriorhunter]

I just read everything on 4chan. I love the idea of Stranglehold but only being available for one turn hurts it, I think. I understand not wanting to make it OP but I think it's lacking. If it was once per battle but you chose the phase that could help, or if it had a higher chance of going off that would help also. Turn one is important, but it's also so early in the game that it could be more powerful if used later.

 

That being said I love the overall feel of Umbremacy and our strats. I think the overall theme is psychological war fare. None of our stuff causes a ton of damage but it does make your opponent stop and think if they really want to do something because of the potential risk involved.

[SkimaskMohawk]

My regular ork opponents use the relic shock attack gun, more dakka and either wreckers or showing off to blast vehicles. By turn 2 they're usually out of cp. So it's very useful against them, even if it's just a chance.

[superwill]

If you're keeping your characters out of LOS at all time because of the threat of having them sniped....then just the existence of said snipers has dictated your strategy. And that has value in itself.

 

They either die, or you go out of your way to protect them, which means you aren't the one controlling the flow of the game.

That sounds cool in theory, but in reality it makes no difference. In my custodes army the two aura dorks are just sitting there for auras, so it makes no difference to them whether they’re sitting in a building or out of LoS or whatever. Most games i’d do it anyway, even if there are no snipers. In my experience, many other armies which rely on characters like that will operate the same way.

 

People talking about snipers being good against knights - the truth is even if you’ve got a battalion of 6 squads of 5 snipers, all of them firing at a knight will do 8.3 mortal wounds (with RG doctrine). Now that’s pretty much best case scenario as a Knight is a fantastic target, but even so is it that amazing? For 390 points you could take three Slam captains and do over 60 wounds instead (obviously one brings CPs and the other costs CPs, but the point is simply that the damage really isn’t that amazing for being our biggest strength). And any less than 6 sniper squads you’re talking about just a handful of wounds.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

No one is talking about using Snipers to target knights. Everyone is talking about using our characters and heavy weapons to leverage Surgical Strikes against Knights, since most are characters.

 

Every recent post you've made recently just reads like naysaying bordering on trolling.

[Nusquam]

Against knights you dont fish for mortal wound sunless its to finish them off or bracket them. The snipers are for infantry characters and T7 or under monster characters. You use the +1 for heavy weapons and make it a 2+/2+ on things like lascannons or 3+/4+ on grav cannosn in drop pods with reroll wounds/damage for 1CP.

 

You're also wounding knights on no worse than a 5+ with everything. Bolters more than double in efficiency when it's active.

 

A marine squad without CCWs can even punch a knight on a 2+ and wound it on a 4+ for 1CP.

 

In a vacuum surgical strikes is not as good as a certain other doctrine, no question. Its far more narrow and requires additional setup than "pick the best gun, deploy it, shoot". What makes it good in it's proper, albeit limited, application is that it makes certain actions you were already going to take regardless of chapter good and in some cases better. You were always going to shoot that knight/carnifex/hive tyrant/daemon price that was charging your front line with heavy weapons, it's just on turn 2+ everything in your army can kill it a little better. Can the UM and IH still "kill it better" too? Yes but then theres a few stratagems that improve it more on every single weapon, like Ambushing Fire so now even your humble bolter is +1 to hit/wound with potential AP-2.

 

Would I have liked a more widely applicable doctrine? Yes, it's just much more probable to be mechanically better thanks to action economy. Do I think it's good? Not very because IH exist; if it were jsut UM and WS so far I would say it's plain "good". Now that's not to say it can't be used well and effectively; a pro can do more with fewer resources than an amateur.

 

It has hot/cold synergy, which is also a problematic theme with RG as a whole. Our CT want to be far away in cover, yet half our rules are for closing the distance and straight turning off our CT by extension. RG are a strategically flexible chapter, but the different paths are too narrow in the scope of the games mechanics. Unless your a successor chapter.

 

I would say that the stratagems are what makes the supplement good overall. Every chapter thus far has solid stratagems that boost units power up in a lot of situations. Ours, however, boost more units more in power but in fewer situations and also optimal placement. An Aggressor squad in your back line isn't doing much, one on the front of your deployment is doing just a little more than advancing and shooting what might be close, but also getting shot. One in a transport is taking a turn to get into place. But a RG unit can be in cover, pre turn 1 in the best spot that every other chapter would take a minimum of one turn to get to and double tap their turn one.  We aren't even using our doctrine but it doesn't matter because that's amazing. Or a blob of 10 Hellblasters deepstriking turn 2 at 12.1-15" away from a target and unloading every shot of their AP-5 plasma incinerators. No other chapter can use every single codex entry in the book to its maximum effectiveness upon deployment of that unit. That is a big deal. Forget Surgical Strike, I would take just the stratagems, traits, powers, and relics.

[superwill]

No one is talking about using Snipers to target knights. Everyone is talking about using our characters and heavy weapons to leverage Surgical Strikes against Knights, since most are characters.

 

Every recent post you've made recently just reads like naysaying bordering on trolling.

 

Fair enough, I'm not meaning to bring the vibe down. For the record there are a couple of people who mentioned snipers targeting knights, but doesn't really matter. Not meaning to troll, or be discouraging. I'll try and post more positive ideas rather than question the ideas other people have had, or just keep quiet.