What are you looking forward to most in the RG supplement?

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I have said it elsewhere, and I will say it here:

 

My problem with the change has nothing to do with losing the -1 to hit in its previous incarnation. It is two fold:

 

1) Every single other FF Chapter's Chapter Tactic was improved. Every. Single. One. Ours was nerfed. I take issue with that when you look at a meta analysis of results. You will struggle to find a single example of a Raven Guard player making the Top 8 at any GT level event in the last 2 years. You can however find many examples of Ultramarines (Bobby G), and even a few handfuls of Salamanders. You will also find examples of Black Templars as well just for their strategem (Deny the Witch). I have no issue with -1 to Hit leaving the game, what I wanted to see was it depart and be replaced with something that is just as good or better. We were never a problem before, and the -1 to Hit mechanic was never an issue coupled with OUR codex, simply because the marine codex is doo doo. It was (and still is) an "issue" with CSM and Eldar. The CSM side of the equation was destroyed when the STFS nerf hit (Thanks -1 to Hit/Infiltrating Cultists).

 

I think I have a reason to be frustrated when my codex has a rule shared by 3 other armies, yet my codex is the worst performer of the bunch, but all are nerfed (likely equally)

 

2) The wording of the new rule is garbage. "Entirely in or on a terrain feature" is horrible wording and it WILL elicit arguments. There was already an argument about what the definition of a "terrain feature" was yesterday in the Warhammer Competitive Subreddit. Here's a great example:

 

http://www.wargamessceneryworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/SANY0099.jpg

 

Every wargame club and FLGS in the universe has a handful of these garbage Polystyrene hills lying around. In 8th edition this hill provides zero COVER, however, is it a terrain feature? Hard to say its NOT a terrain feature, right? Well with our new rule, I can slap down a bigass hill on the table and fill it up with Primaris and they are all -1 to hit. How is a whole bunch of sneaky boys in black parked ON TOP of a hill Stealthy/Obscured? How does that make any sense? Do you see where i'm going with this?

 

Before we could sidle up to a game of the old warhams, and if you're anything like the guys I play against we look at the table and go "That, that, and that are ruins, the rest of this garbage is just scatter/aesthetic" to make life simple. Now life isn't so simple. Now we need an in depth discussion with the whole damn club to decide on what is and isn't a terrain feature. Don't even get me started on the competitive scene. I hope a judge is available to come by and answer constant escalations for every table a RG player gets assigned, because I really can't begin to come up with a logic process to apply to a fantasy game in a science fiction setting.

 

It's a poorly written rule that will likely either get an errata (making it weaker and defining it as needing to be in area cover), or changed. Or more likely knowing GW, it will get left as is, and people will avoid the army because they don't want to deal with the headache.

[Nusquam]

Successor tactics previewed. Legendary Marksmen +3" range buffs deepstriking flames, rapid fire weapons and is marginal for long range ones. This confirms my fears that they really aren't thinking things through on CT as a whole. As for our supplement I wanted more successor traits themed with our parent chapter but that probably isn't going to happen with the reveal of Stealthy (which I don't understand how improving armor at range is stealthy) and the Marksmen that's best on deepstriking auto hitting weapons.

 

I want something for jump infantry, the one signature unit that gets final benefit from out CT.

[Claws and Effect]

I've rethought my stance somewhat. Don't get me wrong, I'd still give Angron a run for his money over this, but I've decided to adapt instead of just complaining.

 

GW wants me to camp on terrain and stay at long range? Fine. 3 Sniper Scout squads, 3 Eliminators, and a Phobos Captain coming up. Bye characters.

 

I'll use the White Scars detachment I'm going to start for taking objectives. And it's still fluffy because Black Library seems to pair the two Chapters up a lot.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I have said it elsewhere, and I will say it here:

 

My problem with the change has nothing to do with losing the -1 to hit in its previous incarnation. It is two fold:

 

1) Every single other FF Chapter's Chapter Tactic was improved. Every. Single. One. Ours was nerfed. I take issue with that when you look at a meta analysis of results. You will struggle to find a single example of a Raven Guard player making the Top 8 at any GT level event in the last 2 years. You can however find many examples of Ultramarines (Bobby G), and even a few handfuls of Salamanders. You will also find examples of Black Templars as well just for their strategem (Deny the Witch). I have no issue with -1 to Hit leaving the game, what I wanted to see was it depart and be replaced with something that is just as good or better. We were never a problem before, and the -1 to Hit mechanic was never an issue coupled with OUR codex, simply because the marine codex is doo doo. It was (and still is) an "issue" with CSM and Eldar. The CSM side of the equation was destroyed when the STFS nerf hit (Thanks -1 to Hit/Infiltrating Cultists).

 

I think I have a reason to be frustrated when my codex has a rule shared by 3 other armies, yet my codex is the worst performer of the bunch, but all are nerfed (likely equally)

 

2) The wording of the new rule is garbage. "Entirely in or on a terrain feature" is horrible wording and it WILL elicit arguments. There was already an argument about what the definition of a "terrain feature" was yesterday in the Warhammer Competitive Subreddit. Here's a great example:

 

http://www.wargamessceneryworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/SANY0099.jpg

 

Every wargame club and FLGS in the universe has a handful of these garbage Polystyrene hills lying around. In 8th edition this hill provides zero COVER, however, is it a terrain feature? Hard to say its NOT a terrain feature, right? Well with our new rule, I can slap down a bigass hill on the table and fill it up with Primaris and they are all -1 to hit. How is a whole bunch of sneaky boys in black parked ON TOP of a hill Stealthy/Obscured? How does that make any sense? Do you see where i'm going with this?

 

Before we could sidle up to a game of the old warhams, and if you're anything like the guys I play against we look at the table and go "That, that, and that are ruins, the rest of this garbage is just scatter/aesthetic" to make life simple. Now life isn't so simple. Now we need an in depth discussion with the whole damn club to decide on what is and isn't a terrain feature. Don't even get me started on the competitive scene. I hope a judge is available to come by and answer constant escalations for every table a RG player gets assigned, because I really can't begin to come up with a logic process to apply to a fantasy game in a science fiction setting.

 

It's a poorly written rule that will likely either get an errata (making it weaker and defining it as needing to be in area cover), or changed. Or more likely knowing GW, it will get left as is, and people will avoid the army because they don't want to deal with the headache.

Pages 248 through 251 show what are terrain features.  Hills are not considered terrain features(page 251) so your example terrain piece would not give -1 to hit.  

[Jacques Corbin]

The -1 to hit made us more survivable against volume of fire. Which was great vs Tau, and other armies that just try to shoot you off the table. Marker lights, especially, were hardly a thing when they hit on 5+, or 6+ if they had to move.

 

Raven Guard lists were not winning tournaments, but it was still strong and fun to play. Now, as stated above, our tactics incentivize us to castle up, and create gunlines. Betcha a bunch of Tau players whined and :cuss-ed about that -1 to hit.

 

However, moving forward, there is a glimmer of hope in Successor Chapters. Maybe we can find a combination that best represents Raptors, Carcharodons, Revilers, Knights of the Raven, Black Guard, etc, and those tactics will best fit our individual play styles. Now, as long as you do not have an opponent who tries the, but those are not painted as <Chapter> ...

[Claws and Effect]

And that's a big problem for tournament play.

 

I've seen TONS of tournament tables on which hills of various sizes are the only terrain on the board, which as you assert would not confer a -1 to hit.

 

Now imagine coming up against an Iron Warriors or Imperial Fists player and getting a table like that. Now you're stuck with a battle where you literally don't have a Chapter Tactic.

 

No other Chapter will ever run into the scenario where their Tactic is just GONE, with nothing they can do about it.

[Jacques Corbin]

Also, Thunderfire Cannons are vehicles, as such can be repaired, by their gunner, who happens to be a character.

[Panzer]

The -1 to hit made us more survivable against volume of fire. Which was great vs Tau, and other armies that just try to shoot you off the table. Marker lights, especially, were hardly a thing when they hit on 5+, or 6+ if they had to move.

 

Raven Guard lists were not winning tournaments, but it was still strong and fun to play. Now, as stated above, our tactics incentivize us to castle up, and create gunlines. Betcha a bunch of Tau players whined and -ed about that -1 to hit.

 

However, moving forward, there is a glimmer of hope in Successor Chapters. Maybe we can find a combination that best represents Raptors, Carcharodons, Revilers, Knights of the Raven, Black Guard, etc, and those tactics will best fit our individual play styles. Now, as long as you do not have an opponent who tries the, but those are not painted as <Chapter> ...

For T'au players it was mostly a problem in casual play though since in competetive matches nobody is using BS4+ Markerlights. It's all about Fireblades who have BS2+ and Firesight Marksmen who have BS3+.

Also basically every army is "just tryingto shoot you off the table". That's how 40k works with some few exceptions like Daemons.

[Jacques Corbin]

 

 

The -1 to hit made us more survivable against volume of fire. Which was great vs Tau, and other armies that just try to shoot you off the table. Marker lights, especially, were hardly a thing when they hit on 5+, or 6+ if they had to move.

 

Raven Guard lists were not winning tournaments, but it was still strong and fun to play. Now, as stated above, our tactics incentivize us to castle up, and create gunlines. Betcha a bunch of Tau players whined and -ed about that -1 to hit.

 

However, moving forward, there is a glimmer of hope in Successor Chapters. Maybe we can find a combination that best represents Raptors, Carcharodons, Revilers, Knights of the Raven, Black Guard, etc, and those tactics will best fit our individual play styles. Now, as long as you do not have an opponent who tries the, but those are not painted as <Chapter> ...

For T'au players it was mostly a problem in casual play though since in competetive matches nobody is using BS4+ Markerlights. It's all about Fireblades who have BS2+ and Firesight Marksmen who have BS3+.

Also basically every army is "just tryingto shoot you off the table". That's how 40k works with some few exceptions like Daemons.

By "just shoot you off the table" I meant trying to table your opponent, instead of playing to the mission and/or just having fun.

 

It has been my personal experience that the majority of Tau players, with some exceptions, are terrible. The way that faction is designed attracts a certain personality type. You see a lot of players who min/max, are poor sports, and more often than not a Tau player is doing terrible in real life and looking for an outlet for their frustrations or just SOMETHING they can be ANY kind of successful with.

 

The reason GW gives as much love to the Tau as they do is because Tau is the second most popular starter army to Marines. Most players start with marines, then branch into other factions, but most Tau players, just have Tau. Why? Because it appears EASY to play and to win.

 

Ever meet a Tau player who was a brilliant strategist or tactician? Me neither. A game versus 1 Tau player is the same game against any other Tau player that can read 1d4chan. How they play, what units they use, always the same. The only variations are when someone has a limited collection.

[duz_]

There used to be a time and place where talking such xeno filth was prohibited. Unfortunately these days the High Lords have deemed it acceptable.

Having said that this is still a Ravenguard thread focusing on what we're looking froward to in the new codex. Not the psyche of xenos or how their heretical technology works.

 

:tu:

[Claws and Effect]

There used to be a time and place where talking such xeno filth was prohibited. Unfortunately these days the High Lords have deemed it acceptable.

Having said that this is still a Ravenguard thread focusing on what we're looking froward to in the new codex. Not the psyche of xenos or how their heretical technology works.

 

:tu:

Truth.

 

I won't get into anything about Tau players or anything like that.

 

What I did note earlier is that the new Chapter Tactic seems to be encouraging us to play just like them. And an Adeptus Astartes Chapter emulating a xenos faction just feels wrong.

[duz_]

=][= Any more discussion about terrain rules belongs in the OR section. =][=

[Panzer]

 

 

The -1 to hit made us more survivable against volume of fire. Which was great vs Tau, and other armies that just try to shoot you off the table. Marker lights, especially, were hardly a thing when they hit on 5+, or 6+ if they had to move.

 

Raven Guard lists were not winning tournaments, but it was still strong and fun to play. Now, as stated above, our tactics incentivize us to castle up, and create gunlines. Betcha a bunch of Tau players whined and -ed about that -1 to hit.

 

However, moving forward, there is a glimmer of hope in Successor Chapters. Maybe we can find a combination that best represents Raptors, Carcharodons, Revilers, Knights of the Raven, Black Guard, etc, and those tactics will best fit our individual play styles. Now, as long as you do not have an opponent who tries the, but those are not painted as <Chapter> ...

For T'au players it was mostly a problem in casual play though since in competetive matches nobody is using BS4+ Markerlights. It's all about Fireblades who have BS2+ and Firesight Marksmen who have BS3+.

Also basically every army is "just tryingto shoot you off the table". That's how 40k works with some few exceptions like Daemons.

By "just shoot you off the table" I meant trying to table your opponent, instead of playing to the mission and/or just having fun.

 

It has been my personal experience that the majority of Tau players, with some exceptions, are terrible. The way that faction is designed attracts a certain personality type. You see a lot of players who min/max, are poor sports, and more often than not a Tau player is doing terrible in real life and looking for an outlet for their frustrations or just SOMETHING they can be ANY kind of successful with.

 

The reason GW gives as much love to the Tau as they do is because Tau is the second most popular starter army to Marines. Most players start with marines, then branch into other factions, but most Tau players, just have Tau. Why? Because it appears EASY to play and to win.

 

Ever meet a Tau player who was a brilliant strategist or tactician? Me neither. A game versus 1 Tau player is the same game against any other Tau player that can read 1d4chan. How they play, what units they use, always the same. The only variations are when someone has a limited collection.

 

 

Damn that's a lot of prejudice. I'm sorry you had to make such experiences but I can assure you that's not the norm and such players can be found all across the community playing a bunch of different factions.

 

Also as a matter of fact, I'm a T'au player and I've been using less commonly used units like Stealth Suits, Coldstar Commanders, Vespid, Pathfinders with Rail rifles etc. even back in 7th and don't even own a single Riptide. Also my playstyle is mainly objective focussed due my lack of raw firepower since I focus mostly on stealth and recon units (hey look, I'd be a good Raven Guard player too! :P ).

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I've rethought my stance somewhat. Don't get me wrong, I'd still give Angron a run for his money over this, but I've decided to adapt instead of just complaining.

 

GW wants me to camp on terrain and stay at long range? Fine. 3 Sniper Scout squads, 3 Eliminators, and a Phobos Captain coming up. Bye characters.

 

I'll use the White Scars detachment I'm going to start for taking objectives. And it's still fluffy because Black Library seems to pair the two Chapters up a lot.

 

This is a good attitude to have, though it saddens me with the White Scars option.

 

I too like playing a stationary element and a mobile element.

 

My last 10 lists in 8th have all had a stationary element that looked like

 

• HQ/Troops
• Dreads (2+) - regular Castraferrum not Contemptor+ OR Hellblasters
• Aggressors
• Company Ancient

Then a mobile element, commonly comprised of any of the following:

• Custodes Shield Captains
• Melee Knight with 2x Armigers
• Vanguard Vets - SS/TH or LC with Shrike/LT

 

Reflection has made me come to realize that the change in the CT only effects me in a handful of ways:

1. The only common things in my stationary element effected are the Dreads, and in a transitive way, not a reductive way
2. In my mobile element the only element effected is the least effective element that I played with

This forces me to draw some conclusions that I think I already knew but had not accepted:

1. Raven Guard (and Space Marines in general) mobile elements are lackluster and typically underperform
2. If I want to play a solo RG list I will have to get creative with Flyers or accept playing a very static army
   1. Id also elaborate on this by saying this is in correlation to "my" playstyle. There is nothing wrong with gunlines.

 

I started this army because Jump Infantry and playing well in the movement (and deployment) phases were where I enjoyed the game the most. This CT change doesn't completely take that away, but it definitely dampens it for me, personally.

[Claws and Effect]

@Vyper: I've been wanting to do Scars for a while anyway because the Damocles Crusade is one of my favorite bits of lore in the entire 40k universe.

 

I even have the Obsidian Knight halfway done :)

[Biscuittzz]

Successor tactics previewed. Legendary Marksmen +3" range buffs deepstriking flames, rapid fire weapons and is marginal for long range ones. This confirms my fears that they really aren't thinking things through on CT as a whole. As for our supplement I wanted more successor traits themed with our parent chapter but that probably isn't going to happen with the reveal of Stealthy (which I don't understand how improving armor at range is stealthy) and the Marksmen that's best on deepstriking auto hitting weapons.

 

I want something for jump infantry, the one signature unit that gets final benefit from out CT.

 

Can you fill us in considering you have the supplement then? Or at least let us know whether Inceptors, Suppressors or regular jump pack marines are best for jumping to all these conclusions?

 

Sarcasm off and on a serious note, can we actually stall the talk of armageddon for us as RG players until we even see the codex let alone the supplement?! Our CT was nerfed yes! But we have no idea how the synergies will play out with combat doctrines, new strategems, unit costs and unit rules, new iteration of Shrike and whatever our supplement holds.

 

I will happily join the rest of you sable branded if it turns out bad.

 

Edit: You all need to go play GK for a while then we can talk about being bad.

[MegaVolt87]

I've rethought my stance somewhat. Don't get me wrong, I'd still give Angron a run for his money over this, but I've decided to adapt instead of just complaining.

 

GW wants me to camp on terrain and stay at long range? Fine. 3 Sniper Scout squads, 3 Eliminators, and a Phobos Captain coming up. Bye characters.

 

I'll use the White Scars detachment I'm going to start for taking objectives. And it's still fluffy because Black Library seems to pair the two Chapters up a lot.

 

That's actually a nice little detachment there. However, its bizarre to see this shift towards armor and flyers for RG, who have traditionally been a very infantry focused chapter. Adding in some primaris infiltrators (?) to that as well as flyers seems like a strong combo though. 

[Nusquam]

Opinions on an the probability of a certain outcome is par for the course at this point in a release timeline and fine. At no point did I state the outcome as fact, it was an educated guess.

 

Everyone has the right to express how they feel and share it, it's when we take it out on other frater it gets bad.

 

Can we have an open environment without jumping at each others throats?

 

I would love for the supplement to be more than I expect, who doesn't? With the reveal of the successor article I'm just thinking it's going to be more focused on that chapter with the main codex being effectively the "supplement" for successors.

[MajorNese]

I'm quite interested in how much actual rules will be in there, and how much of it (and the lore) focussed on known successors. And what First Founding and known successors will have available contrary to unknown successors, as we've seen yesterday how those can mix and match CT components.

 

Especially with Carcharodons and Raptors being quite different from the RG in terms of modus operandi - neither of the two combine lightning claws and jump packs to that degree. Actually fitting WL traits and relics, usable with the primaris line of equipment, would be awesome.

 

We'll see upon release. Though with one codex and two supplements (RG and IH) I'll probably wait for reviews first. That much paper...

[Claws and Effect]

I've decided some of my Raven Guard will remain Raven Guard and some of them will get a subtle repaint and become Iron Ravens. Silver Chapter symbol and pad trim.

[MajorNese]

In that case, I do have the luxury of having one named successor and a custom one, giving me the option to deviate from the main chapter rules without explanation or even repaint. The latter chapter is AdMech themed and will be either IH or a successor that's even more resilient (Stealth + FnP or something).

 

We'll see when it's out - I don't think they will leave the entire remaining balance untouched, considering some buffs will be quite powerful for certain units.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

If I can make an attempt to give constructive criticism - in the interest of trying to stay calm and improve the discourse we have:

 

 

Can you fill us in considering you have the supplement then? Or at least let us know whether Inceptors, Suppressors or regular jump pack marines are best for jumping to all these conclusions?

 

Sarcasm off and on a serious note,

 

While maybe sarcastic, this definitely reads to me like a "Sorry not sorry" type of post, which is to say that while you noted it as sarcasm I personally perceived it as inflammatory, and it wasn't even directed at me.

 

 

 

can we actually stall the talk of armageddon for us as RG players until we even see the codex let alone the supplement?! Our CT was nerfed yes! But we have no idea how the synergies will play out with combat doctrines, new strategems, unit costs and unit rules, new iteration of Shrike and whatever our supplement holds.

 

I will happily join the rest of you sable branded if it turns out bad.

 

This is, without a doubt, the most constructive part of this post, and the type of feedback and information we should be focusing on to move forward in a cool, calm, and collected manner. Good point!

 

 

Edit: You all need to go play GK for a while then we can talk about being bad.

 

This, to me, reads very entitled. It almost reads as if to say "I play GK and RG, and GK have been trash the whole edition, none of you understand the meaning of the word bad". It's prohibitive to discourse and demeaning to your audience. It almost sounds if, according to you, we are not entitled to an opinion.

 

I hope what I posted doesn't come across as a personal attack, because I am trying to word myself in a way that hopefully gets perceived as analytical and not emotional. 

 

The first time I read this post, I was emotional, and my response was emotional. It was deleted. I have since gone back and re-read it, and much of the context in the thread, and am making an an honest attempt to convey my thoughts while minimizing emotion.

[Claws and Effect]

Back to the OP topic:

 

In light of the reveal of the CT change, I'm really hoping we get something that helps our units be better in melee.

 

It's really hard to keep a melee focused army at range where we want them to be, and once they get into melee with us we don't hold up well.

[Cordova]

Well, whilst holding out positivity for the Supplement/DIY chapter rules, I think the new look rules for Eliminators are quite nice, as are the new doctrines...

 

Although you can already tell there are going to be some grim combinations.

[duz_]

=][=

Despite multiple warnings in this thread it appears the Frater of the Ravenspire have forgotten how to interact with one another, this is extremely disappointing. 

If the bickering does not stop this thread will be closed until the weekend at the earliest, until then there will be zero tolerance for any sniping between fellow Frater, or off topic discussion (see previous nudges).

 

This warning comes from all of the Raven Guard mods.

 

For those who need a reminder of the rules they are here.

=][=

 

 

 

Now, on a lighter note:

Todays info was great! 

 

I really like the stat lines and the Doctrines, they're a bit restrictive, but from a balance point of you its probably a good thing.
Its definitely good news for my pistol and blade Reivers :D :D 

 

Its seems that marines are getting more flexibility and damage output which is what they we're lacking.
I'm curious to see if they improve their durability too. (Maybe even drop pods! ;) )