Tacs vs Intercessors (new codex mathhammer)

[War Angel]

What’s the math without rerolling 1’s?

 

Unless I’m an idiot (and I am), vs Marines intercessors do 4 unsaved wounds, and if I understand this formula correctly, 1.8 unsaved plasma overcharge wounds (round to 2 because we can’t do an 8th of a wound) and 2.3 Bolter wounds, means 3 dead intercessors. Oh I guess you were doing this at 12 inches.

[Disruptor_fe404]

With their points break, I think Tacticals have a place as homes for the Hellfire Shell and Flakk Missile stratagems in the Troops slot.

[Captain Idaho]

Indeed they do.

 

And the extra firepower they grant in support is very useful. Cheap numbers - a full squad is 120pts! Along with a Grav Cannon and 2 plasma guns you've got a reasonable amount of firepower for just 162pts!

[MegaVolt87]

The only way I see tacticals being useful is spending more points for transports.

 

Sorry, how is one non scoring transport better than extra bodies to score an objective? 5 tacticals are 5W, 5 intercessors are 10W for staying power at that unit size. Transports no longer leave wrecks behind to create cover/ terrain like they used to. 10 tacticals holding a home objective makes more sense. However scouts would be better than 5-10 tacticals to hold your home objective, if we don't look at primaris. Rhino is overcosted, drop pods looking to be worth the points now with the changes happening. You are throwing away your points advantage by taking a rhino with the cheaper tacticals instead of primaris/scouts, counter productive. Drop pod tactical's at 5 man, will be just a throw away/ suicide unit for the special + combi. 

[Lemondish]

Units can bring more value than simply whether they score an objective.

 

For instance, that transport can eat overwatch, tie up a threat in combat, block movement, block line of sight, and protect the unit while improving the speed they get there.

 

Which is just further diluting the comparison, really.

[Captain Idaho]

Not to mention the pressure build affect by adding 3 extra heavy weapons to an army from Tactical Marines that shouldn't be targeted early game anyway because you've got other units pressuring the opponent.

 

I find it quite unbelievable that a mixed Astartes force (true Astartes I guess) wouldn't have say 10 Intercessors marching up the field with a couple Dreadnoughts and maybe a Vanguard Veteran squad or 2, but the opponent will target the supporting Tactical Marines first. Especially if you have supporting fire vehicles, Centurions etc at the back.

 

I truly believe the most competitive (at least Ultramarines) lists will not leave behind Classic Marines. I can even see a case for a "True Astartes" list mixing the Classic and Primaris elements, being most effective.

 

Dare I say it.

[Panzer]

edit: wrong thread ^^

[MegaVolt87]

Not to mention the pressure build affect by adding 3 extra heavy weapons to an army from Tactical Marines that shouldn't be targeted early game anyway because you've got other units pressuring the opponent.

 

I find it quite unbelievable that a mixed Astartes force (true Astartes I guess) wouldn't have say 10 Intercessors marching up the field with a couple Dreadnoughts and maybe a Vanguard Veteran squad or 2, but the opponent will target the supporting Tactical Marines first. Especially if you have supporting fire vehicles, Centurions etc at the back.

 

I truly believe the most competitive (at least Ultramarines) lists will not leave behind Classic Marines. I can even see a case for a "True Astartes" list mixing the Classic and Primaris elements, being most effective.

 

Dare I say it.

 

Why not shoot at them considering how powerful the shooting phase is, especially on the first turn. Taking 3 with las + plas, they score to boot. Killing small scoring units in an objectives game as a priority makes sense... 

[Captain Idaho]

That's fine, shoot at those Tactical squads at the back. Let those full squads of Vanguard charge you with back up from Intercessors close on their heels...

[SkimaskMohawk]

Because usually people target units that have the most damage potential on turn 1, so they can mitigate return damage and be in a more dominant position. Target priorities my dude

[MegaVolt87]

That's fine, shoot at those Tactical squads at the back. Let those full squads of Vanguard charge you with back up from Intercessors close on their heels...

 

Fair point, had a brain fart and read Vanguard as Sternguard, would prefer Sternguard to just be Veteran Tactical Squad then I would stop being confused lol. 

[Captain Idaho]

I'm fine with my opponent letting me get a turn 2 charge off with 20 Vanguard Veterans.

 

All my tournament games showed me, however, that the last units to be targeted were my 5 man Tactical squads. So I'm fairly confident my poor Vanguard won't make it into combat unopposed.

[War Angel]

Because the 5man with a lascannon or plasma cannon isn’t a threat. Lascannons suffer from being d6 damage, so when it comes to your scenario, most players are going to believe that it’s easier for them to hope you miss or roll low damage than they can clear 3 sets of 5.

 

Lascannons need love.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

The only way I see tacticals being useful is spending more points for transports.

 

Sorry, how is one non scoring transport better than extra bodies to score an objective? 5 tacticals are 5W, 5 intercessors are 10W for staying power at that unit size. Transports no longer leave wrecks behind to create cover/ terrain like they used to. 10 tacticals holding a home objective makes more sense. However scouts would be better than 5-10 tacticals to hold your home objective, if we don't look at primaris. Rhino is overcosted, drop pods looking to be worth the points now with the changes happening. You are throwing away your points advantage by taking a rhino with the cheaper tacticals instead of primaris/scouts, counter productive. Drop pod tactical's at 5 man, will be just a throw away/ suicide unit for the special + combi.

 

Let me be the first to tell you bruh I don’t play on planet bowling ball and tacts they die to a stiff wind. They were terribad before.

[Dracos]

edit: none of my business

[Captain Idaho]

Because the 5man with a lascannon or plasma cannon isn’t a threat. Lascannons suffer from being d6 damage, so when it comes to your scenario, most players are going to believe that it’s easier for them to hope you miss or roll low damage than they can clear 3 sets of 5.

Lascannons need love.

1 Lascannon isn't much cop but 3 more added to a list that already has (say from 2 Dreadnoughts) 4 is pretty good. Works the same with Missile Launchers against everything T7 or less thanks to Devastator Doctrine.

 

Or AP-2 spam under the Devastator Doctrine - extra heavy Bolters to add to the fusillade.

[War Angel]

 

Because the 5man with a lascannon or plasma cannon isn’t a threat. Lascannons suffer from being d6 damage, so when it comes to your scenario, most players are going to believe that it’s easier for them to hope you miss or roll low damage than they can clear 3 sets of 5.

Lascannons need love.

1 Lascannon isn't much cop but 3 more added to a list that already has (say from 2 Dreadnoughts) 4 is pretty good. Works the same with Missile Launchers against everything T7 or less thanks to Devastator Doctrine.

 

Or AP-2 spam under the Devastator Doctrine - extra heavy Bolters to add to the fusillade.

Yeah, but I can’t target three of them, I can target one. I have to kill 5 marines to get rid of one, 10 to get rid of two. Yes, three lascannons is good, but as the opponent I’m not looking at 3 lascannons, I’m looking at a lascannon and 4 shields, three times. So instead of killing them, I’ll take out your vanguard because It’s one block. Or your dreadnaught but That’s really going to be my anti tank shooting him.

[Captain Idaho]

So my anti tank can find purchase on your army without being shot.

 

The way people talk of certainty strikes me of odd. I'm giving myself options and spreading threat through my list. If you can just choose to eliminate my army on a whim then we may as well not play.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Not to mention the pressure build affect by adding 3 extra heavy weapons to an army from Tactical Marines that shouldn't be targeted early game anyway because you've got other units pressuring the opponent.

 

I find it quite unbelievable that a mixed Astartes force (true Astartes I guess) wouldn't have say 10 Intercessors marching up the field with a couple Dreadnoughts and maybe a Vanguard Veteran squad or 2, but the opponent will target the supporting Tactical Marines first. Especially if you have supporting fire vehicles, Centurions etc at the back.

 

I truly believe the most competitive (at least Ultramarines) lists will not leave behind Classic Marines. I can even see a case for a "True Astartes" list mixing the Classic and Primaris elements, being most effective.

 

Dare I say it.

I agree that a mix of classic and Primaris marines will be the most effective way to run marines. Most of us that haven't ran mixed forces have done so for aesthetic or lore reasons. I'd make the argument that from a rules perspective GW isn't abandoning the classic range at all with all the effort they're put in to keep them relevant.

[War Angel]

I’m not a great player, so maybe my logic is flawed here, but work with me here. You want to take out the biggest threat right? What’s the key word in that sentence? Biggest threat right? (Two words but to be fair I’m also just not smart in general) well a pretty important part of that sentence is also “take out”. See, for me, I’m just not confident that I can get all three of your lascannons, and maybe you placed them back far enough that I NEED to use my big guns to get them, and I might be sitting there thinking, damn, I could shoot these guys at them, but if I miss just one guy, that squad is still 100% effective. Meanwhile, there’s this big blob of power weapons and captains and chaplains and other stuff here that is going to ruin my day in a turn, and ever failed save you take is reducing their effectiveness.

 

I’ll probably also use my anti tank against your dreadnaught.

 

That’s just my thought on the matter, and you said yourself, everyone kills those lascannon squads after they kill the rest of your stuff.

 

I don’t play much, but I’ve only fought something like what your saying once, and it was a blood angle gunline with two tactical squads of 6 and a lascannon. I tried to kill both on the first turn and was left with two squads of one and a lascannon. The hellblasters were killed off in either the first turn or the second. Everything else got in close and ruined my day. Probably could have just not shot the 10 tactical marines and maybe killed another guy.

 

It also depends on the terrain and placement though, I’d much rather set up that you can hit me with all three lascannons. But the only thing I’m certain of is that my plan will probably fail.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm not saying that it is an optimum build or anything, just that it is a way of using your Troops choices to support the rest of your army instead of them just being a compulsory unit choice. Just another way of playing.

 

I think I've moved away from an either or opinion. For personal aesthetic reasons I can't add Primaris to my Classic Marines force and I won't replace them (I'm not made of money!), but that doesn't mean I don't think that Primaris are starting to be competitive.

 

I DO think that the Doctrines work best (for Ultramarines in particular compared to White Scars) by cycling through the Doctrines steadily and calmly. This leads to a more guns approach for Devastator Doctrine to take advantage of. Which is where Tacticals come in, but it doesn't mean Intercessors aren't worth anything because they are a solid mass to give the troops section stating power for relatively cheap.

 

But then that's my opinion. I think there will be a multitude of ways to play this Codex and we shall see how well the game progresses.

[War Angel]

I’m not sure we are disagreeing. I’ll probably be using tacticals for again for a little bit because I was already using all of my Primaris models and chapter serfs, and the knight asset they acquired. Now that I’m going to be hurting myself for using slaves, I’ll have to see if I can make it to 2000 points with a bunch of my second company showing up.

 

I think another aspect of the combat Doctrines everyone seems to not notice is timing. From what I’ve seen, everyone wants to go to tactical as soon as possible. From the beginning I’ve been thinking that we should instead wait to see what the battle looks like. If my enemy knows I can switch to tactical, and starts taking out my rapid fire guns, maybe turn two I’ll just keep hitting him with heavy bolters and missile launchers at +1 AP.

[The Unseen]

For my BA, intercessors are significantly better than Tacticals. But that mostly comes down to how much better the Standard of Sacrifice is for Primaris marines than regular ones. If I'm not running scouts for cheap effective troops, I'm running stuff that I want to be durable objective holders that push forward to take the midfield, and intercessors do that a lot better than Tacs, especially if they have a 5+++. Intercessors with a 5+++ are absolute hell to shift, because odds are good each intercessor will soak two D2 or Dd3 shots each, rather than just 1. But I can see the merit in cheap lascannon or even heavy bolter or plasma cannon squads to hold backfield objectives, those have always been "ok", and now that unit is 5 pts cheaper, and hits harder thanks to doctrines, it got objectively better. I think Eliminators or Devs do that job better, but they're also more expensive and aren't troops, and CP is the name of the game in 8th.

 

For double plasma squads in transports, I think the Impulsor with Hellblasters inside is just a better investment overall. The other troop choices don't need transports to be effective, and paying for a transport to get 2 plasma guns into range isn't worth it, hasn't been for any of 8th. Turn 1 pods filled with double squads for 4 plamsa guns has the potential to be interesting though.
Curse GW, flamers should've always been 10" or 12" range, not this pathetic 8".

 

For me, I'll stick to 4 squads of scouts and 2 seven man squads of intercessors for my double battalion/brigade, but I think tacticals got more interesting for vanilla marines for sure.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Assuming ultramarines successors inherit their ability to ignore movement in tactical doctrine, then a successor with re-roll a hit and wound and always in cover traits would probably be the best for small units to maximize a heavy+special weapon. Does anyone know if they inherit it?

[SkimaskMohawk]

Lemondish has confirmed that they do. Like read off the page verbatim