"Sleeper" rules/abilities from the UM Supplement

[MrZakalwe]

Is a single Knight cheese? That's where it's strongest but it's still pretty great against multi-threat lists as it just makes one of them easier to kill for the cost of a single relic - it would be amazing against a repulsor, for example

 

It would stack very, very nicely with the sort of list you are talking about as the grav wound rerolls is a strat so can only be used once per phase in matched - being able to get those wound rerolls with multiple units at the same time will be beastly, I think.

I've had a marine painting project in the background for a while and stuff like this makes it tempting to bring them out to play to out-cheese people. 

 

I have a feeling I'm going to have to play against it every time I play against Ultramarines. 

[Captain Idaho]

Yes I think a single Knight is cheesey. I never liked Knights and Flyers added to the game as they were too radical in their affect on an opponent's capacity to fight a game or they're just underpowered.

 

I have to accept Knights so yes I have to deal with them.

 

Put it this way, I have no sympathy for players who take Knights as they're still strong.

 

***

 

I'm fully aware I sound like an old man right now!

 

I'm also aware that my own less broken way of playing is likely not the problem here so I do concede that this relic COULD be broken if it's in every Ultramarines list and the top performers.

[Ishagu]

Lol I've never seen Eldar fail a doom test

[MrZakalwe]

RNGesus has a grudge against you :D 

 

It's got a just less than a 20% chance of failing even with full rerolls and that's without denies involved. New Tiggy should really mess with that reliability as his denies look truly excellent (IMPERIUM having an affordable psychic powerhouse like him really opens up some doors). 

 

My 26 point Astropaths have thrown sand in the works more than once so Tigarius should make short work of it! (disclosure: I've played against Eldar a hell of a lot in the last year so they have had a great many chances - your mileage may vary).

[Prot]

Don't forget there is a negative now for Marines playing soup. I think it's the loss of Combat Doctrines. 

 

I have to admit I've never played against Eldar (tournament wise) where Doom isn't hitting me. It's such a destructive power and easy to cast from a protected (out of deny range) area since a lot of the time the psyker is on a jet bike.

 

 

Yes I think a single Knight is cheesey. I never liked Knights and Flyers added to the game as they were too radical in their affect on an opponent's capacity to fight a game or they're just underpowered.

I have to accept Knights so yes I have to deal with them.

Put it this way, I have no sympathy for players who take Knights as they're still strong.

***

I'm fully aware I sound like an old man right now!

I'm also aware that my own less broken way of playing is likely not the problem here so I do concede that this relic COULD be broken if it's in every Ultramarines list and the top performers.

 

I don't think they're cheesy... just very strong. But they force everyone to have an answer in their list, and if I were to pick a weakness, right now with the new Space Marines is the lack of -improvement- in that area alone. 

 

I mean I think the 'troops' are in a far better place now. So are a lot of hand weapons, and even the ability to assault, and repel assault, but T8, 20+ wounds is going to still be an issue especially for the Primaris player and it's pretty much why I groaned at the 30 point Executioner increase.  

 

The thing about this codex and Knights is you typically have to worry about two things at once against Knights... cheap screens, and 3-5 models at T8 with all those wounds. The Troops are now much better equipped to handle the chaff.... Scions is huge for this, and it's also why I'm reluctant to rip Las off of my Centurions. 

 

The only thing that came to mind for this in the new codex was a Drop Pod Dev Multimelta squad in Turn 2 perhaps. 

[L30n1d4s]

So, some more ideas on another "sleeper" unit for the Ultramarines here:

 

 

1) Sgt Chronus  riding in a Relic Whirlwind Scorpius -- Now that Chronus can go in any vehicle with the keyword "Land Raider," "Whirlwind," etc., putting him in a Whirlwind Scorpius can make for a very deadly "backfield fire base" combination, I think.

 

 

The Whirlwind Scorpius normally can put our 3D3 S6 AP-2 D2 shots and hit units that it does not have LOS to. On top of this, it can shoot twice (so 6D3 shots, or an average of 12 shots) if it did not Move and, thanks to the new Devastator Doctrine, can improve its AP to -3 staring Turn 1. Add in Cronus to all this for BS2+ and a nearby Captain and Lieutenant for re-rolls of 1s and now you have a powerful artillery platform that can hunt key/elite enemy units all game long:

 

 

---

*Against Eldar Dark Reapers hiding in cover you have 11-12 hits, 11-12 wounds, 8-9 failed armor saves, and so 8-9 dead Dark Reapers, on average (so, basically, the whole squad)

 

*Against Astartes 2W/3+ save Primaris Infantry (like Helbasters) you have 11-12 hits, 9-10 wounds, 7-8 failed armor saves, and 7-8 dead Primaris Models, on average

 

*Against Tau Broadside Battle Suits you have 11-12 hits, 9-10 wounds, 6-7 failed armor saves, and about 2 dead Broadsides, on average

 

*Against Necron Destroyers you have 11-12 hits, 9-10 wounds, 7-8 failed armor saves, and 4 dead Destroyers, on average

 

*Against Astra Militarum Bullgryn with Slab Shields you have 11-12 hits, 9-10 wounds, 6-7 failed armor saves, and 3-4 dead Bullgryn, on average

 

*Against a Harlequin Starweaver Transport, you have 9-10 hits, 7-8 wounds, 3-4 failed armor saves, and 6-7 wounds (so one dead Skyweaver), on average

 

*Against Ork Warbikers, you have 9-10 hits, 7-8 wounds, no successful armor saves (due to AP-3), so 7-8 dead Warbikers

---

 

 

Remember, all of this can happen at long range and without LOS, so you can be effective all game long, no matter where the enemy is hiding. Additionally, with UM Chapter Tactics, you can still fall back from combat, spend 1 CP to negate the -1 penalty for moving and shooting with Heavy Weapons ("Big Guns Never Tire," I think it is called),  and still shoot 3D3 shots at BS3+. Finally, even if the Whirlwind Scorpius is damaged, Chronus keeps it firing at full BS2+ all the way until it is destroyed and he can also heal 1 wound a turn on it.

 

 

Bottom line, for only 30 points extra, I think Sgt Chronus combines exceptionally well with the Whirlwind Scorpius, plus he fills a mandatory HQ slot in building out detachments. Put another way, it almost like taking the firepower equivalent of two full Suppressor Squads (except S6 instead of S7 weaponry), putting them into a tank, giving them the ability to shoot without LOS, and making them hit on 2+ vice 3+ Ballistic Skill.

[Captain Idaho]

There's a Strategum that lets Whirlwinds fire twice as well...

[Tiger9gamer]

So correct me if I'm wrong but wouldnt thr squad doctrine stratagem make a squad be able to move and shoot as if they were standing still, even in the devastator phase? because if so then the aggressors have a whole lot more use as a mobile fire base.

[Captain Idaho]

It does but not advance or fall back. They only move 5" so keep that in mind when planning their use.

[Ishagu]

There's a Strategum that lets Whirlwinds fire twice as well...

I'm keeping an eye on this. We still can't bring any FW vehicles into lists without losing the Doctrines.

 

I'm expecting an FAQ to amend this upon release of the codex, but that Strat would allow a Scorpius to shoot 9D3 times.

[Subtleknife]

I really hope the FAQ for FW units has a points drop for the astreus. It should be around knight levels. It would be a pretty cool centrepiece to a primaris army but the points cost atm is way to high.

[Ishagu]

I really hope the FAQ for FW units has a points drop for the astreus. It should be around knight levels. It would be a pretty cool centrepiece to a primaris army but the points cost atm is way to high.

Yeah same. I'd love to use one in regular games.

[L30n1d4s]

An army of a single LOW detachment.... Guilliman and two Astreus Tanks!

[Prot]

I was just in a tournament where a guy had an Astreus. He did pretty good. Won I think 4 out if 6 games. If that unit could use strats and Doctrines it could be a lot of fun. I’d kind of like to paint one.

[Captain Idaho]

Having seen it in "real life" I must say it looks great.

[Ishagu]

It's a beautiful model. Maybe a bit too big but it's very imposing.

 

I much prefer balanced looking armies. I like having troops, tanks, heroes, etc. The problem with a 700+ point model in an already elite army is that it erodes the look of the force in a regular sized game, even if it can be used effectively.

[Prot]

That's my preference as well. I said going into this codex that the disappointment I was having with my Ultra's was the further I went away from Marine type bodies/infantry, the more successful I was. 

 

Competitively basically I looked at what was winning. Don Houson's "the Purge" using the twin linking feature on a bunch of tough units with a very small model count. Same goes for Geoff's (RIP) 3 x Caladius Custodes list. And the list goes on, and on.

 

Essentially what I started feeling was if you couldn't bring a table full of spammy, hard to get rid of, janky units for board control, you're better off taking a handful of tanks and playing aura hammer.(The Purge have a built in aura type mechanism.)

 

By the last few months I would say my longest winning record runs were at the hand of 2 x Executioners + 1 Repulsor + Redemptor. I could have went further but I couldn't bring myself to it. 

 

So my hope is the majority of changes allow me to get back to balance. The codex seems to really help Intercessors, which I like. Even the humble Redemptor gets a big boost from Scions of the Emperor which is another unit I enjoyed, but found just far too below average. (This is why there are so many Forgeworld Dreads out there.)

 

Looking forward to balance.

[crazyterran]

Any of these buffs for the Redemptor also help the C-Mortis, Leviathan, and Deredeo though, as Scions on Grav Bombards or Stormcannon Arrays is just golden.

[Prot]

That's true. The reason I feel like Redemptors squeeze a bit more out of it is they are actually really decent in close combat. But the idea of lugging up the Redemptor with -1 to hit on HoG (not to mention degredation) was just far too punishing to me, and it always made the alternative dreads "stand and shoot" just automatic choices. I'm hoping this makes a bit of difference for those less popular Redemptors.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I'm looking at the Redemptor myself. A giant Dreadnought for sub 200pts? Ta very much.

 

Would act as a good tag team with a Contemptor too. Both have similar movement (the 9" Contemptor catches most players out) and which does the opponent shoot? The big bad with the big fist and lots of guns, or the slightly faster and reasonable assault force with a decent gun itself?

 

:)

[crazyterran]

That's true. The reason I feel like Redemptors squeeze a bit more out of it is they are actually really decent in close combat. But the idea of lugging up the Redemptor with -1 to hit on HoG (not to mention degredation) was just far too punishing to me, and it always made the alternative dreads "stand and shoot" just automatic choices. I'm hoping this makes a bit of difference for those less popular Redemptors.

 

Agreed, it definitely helps - my force is themed for the Scouring and that time period after, mostly in Mk3 and Mk4 armour - so no Primaris for me. Which is fine, as I have a plethora of choices between the GW and FW lines. 

 

Between the Tactical Doctrine WL Trait and Big Guns Never Tire, being able to move my Leviathans forward turn 1 with no hit penalties then having Scions on after that is going to be good. 

[Ishagu]

So I think I'll be taking a Grav Devastator squad in a Pod, along with a Cherub.

 

You can use 2 CP to allow them to fire without penalty on turn 1 and to grant re rolls to wound and damage rolls to the Grav Cannons, and the Cherub gets you an extra 4 shots.

 

You can put a character in there or spend another CP for Scions of Guilliman, or save some CP by dropping them in turn 2 when the Tactical Doctrine is already active.

 

They'll reliably destroy a vehicle or elite units, and can knock 10 wounds off a Knight with a 4++ if necessary.

You dont need them to drop too close to the enemy either.

 

It might even be worth putting them in a Razorback as the can disembark T1 for a 33" range on the grav cannons.

 

Centurions are also more attractive now, especially with the extra wound. It might be worth running a squad on foot with the Grav Cannons and hurricane bolters.

[Joukernaut]

I agree that the grave drop pod looks mighty tempting again.

You could also drop a spare captain with the tactical doctrine warlord trait, costs one CP as well I believe but you might get more return from it.

[Ishagu]

Also, Chronus can be deployed in vehicles based on keywords now.

 

It means you can deploy him in a Forgeworld Whirlwind Scorpius, or a Land Raider Achillies.

[Kallas]

How do you get them firing without penalty turn one from a pod? You wouldn't be able to use Squad Doctrines on them, as they aren't on the table at the start of the movement phase.