"Sleeper" rules/abilities from the UM Supplement

[ThatOneMarshal]

He seems great for a list without guilliman for the CC punch and is definitely one that an opponent would underestimate.

 

Only problem I’ve run into with him is that in Most lists I’m going to need that extra 75 points somewhere.

 

I now know what I’m going to do with my old metal ultramarine chapter champion model. Going to have to paint his helm red as well ;).

[crazyterran]

He seems great for a list without guilliman for the CC punch and is definitely one that an opponent would underestimate.

 

Only problem I’ve run into with him is that in Most lists I’m going to need that extra 75 points somewhere.

 

I now know what I’m going to do with my old metal ultramarine chapter champion model. Going to have to paint his helm red as well .

 

55pts but I know what you mean.

 

I'd kind of rather just give my Dakka Captain a Power Fist instead! 

[Mcha0s92]

Chapter Champion - The Burning Blade, Warlord Trait: The Imperium's Sword

 

On the charge (re-rollable) this character gets 7 S8 attacks at AP-5 and D2, plus of course his Champion's Blade attack. He has a 2+ armour save already which amounts to a 5+ save against most power weapons at worse.

Nice very interesting thank you

[h0U5e]

In regards to the UM Chapter Champion I have a question.

On other forums and in Battlescribe people seem to think you can replace his Master-crafted Power Sword for the following items at no cost:
- Power Sword
- Power Maul
- Power Axe
- Power Lance
- Relic Blade
- Thunder Hammer

Unless I'm missing something between the new Codex / UM supplement I don't see how this is allowed because on the Chapter Champion datasheet he is not given permission to trade out his weapons? Are these some Index shenanigans?

A 55pt character beatstick with a Thunder Hammer would be pretty auto include - but I don't think its legal.

 

Thoughts? 

[Kallas]

It's an oddity with the Index Chapter Champion.

 

I'm unclear on how it interacts with the Ultramarines one, because the Index one is not Chapter locked to Ultramarines, so it could be essentially two Datasheets.

 

Honestly, GW needs to consolidate a lot of its rules again - we already have a massive book bloat again: Rulebook +FAQ, Codex +FAQ (+Supplement +FAQ for Marines), Vigilus +FAQ (+ some of it is overridden...); soon enough we'll have the Psychic Awakening books (+FAQs) too. That's a small tree per player...

[Joukernaut]

It’s not legal for the ultramarine chapter champion to switch his weapons out. People should always check the codex to see if battlescribe is right.

[Captain Idaho]

The Ultramarines have their own Chapter Champion, who is actually superior to the Index (and previous Codex) options. It's a shame he can't have any weapon swaps but he DOES start with a Mastercrafted Power Sword which ain't bad.

 

The Burning Blade makes him fiendish.

[h0U5e]

Right on, that's what I thought. Given that the UM Champ has his wargear included and the Index Champ does not - looks like this is 100% an illegal build.

Thanks for confirming - now I know what to point to if someone I play tries to make use of Battlescribe's error (GW hurry up and make a subscription based rules app PLEASE).

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You don’t really need a hammer when the Burning Blade is S8 plus you save some points as well.

[Cornishman]

In regards to the UM Chapter Champion I have a question.

 

On other forums and in Battlescribe people seem to think you can replace his Master-crafted Power Sword for the following items at no cost:

- Power Sword

- Power Maul

- Power Axe

- Power Lance

- Relic Blade

- Thunder Hammer

 

Unless I'm missing something between the new Codex / UM supplement I don't see how this is allowed because on the Chapter Champion datasheet he is not given permission to trade out his weapons? Are these some Index shenanigans?

 

A 55pt character beatstick with a Thunder Hammer would be pretty auto include - but I don't think its legal.

 

Thoughts? 

 

 

It's an oddity with the Index Chapter Champion.

 

I'm unclear on how it interacts with the Ultramarines one, because the Index one is not Chapter locked to Ultramarines, so it could be essentially two Datasheets.

 

Honestly, GW needs to consolidate a lot of its rules again - we already have a massive book bloat again: Rulebook +FAQ, Codex +FAQ (+Supplement +FAQ for Marines), Vigilus +FAQ (+ some of it is overridden...); soon enough we'll have the Psychic Awakening books (+FAQs) too. That's a small tree per player...

 

 

The Ultramarines have their own Chapter Champion, who is actually superior to the Index (and previous Codex) options. It's a shame he can't have any weapon swaps but he DOES start with a Mastercrafted Power Sword which ain't bad.

 

The Burning Blade makes him fiendish.

 

 

Right on, that's what I thought. Given that the UM Champ has his wargear included and the Index Champ does not - looks like this is 100% an illegal build.

 

Thanks for confirming - now I know what to point to if someone I play tries to make use of Battlescribe's error (GW hurry up and make a subscription based rules app PLEASE).

 

Why is it illegal?

 

The latest Codex: Space Marines errata makes it clear that the Chapter Champion (or Honour Guard for that matter) as present in the Ultramarine supplement supplanted the datasheets for these units that are in C:SM (2017) as the current datasheet for these units. C:SM (2017) in turn replaced Index: Imp 1 on C:SM (2017) release.

 

The general 40k FAQ states that wargear options presented in the Index for a datasheet remain valid.

 

Hence weapons swaps would appear to be allowed. Neither changing <Chapter> to Ultramarines or going from a base cost + equipment cost to set cost alters any of the above.

Whether this is what GW intended is another matter. If there is the desire to discuss this at length to avoid derailing the topic perhaps this could be moved to the rules section.

 

[Lemondish]

An example of why we actually really do need Legends if only to finally put to bed these horrendous Index interactions. 

[Prot]

Okay so I've run some experiments with a unit I think we all agree had very good value BEFORE the new codex, but fell out of favour almost the instant the codex came out.

 

The Ancient. The reason I say this is we got addicted to our 3+ shoot from the dead. But since our multiwound models have been improved, this also brings the Apothecary to the forefront a little bit more than our previous codex did.

 

So the old -I'll shoot before I die- and get resurrected after by the Apothecary is still valid. And the incentive to use Aggressors and Centurions (of any kind) had increased significantly. 

 

The second part to this though is the Standard of Macragge Inviolate. The extra attack within 6" is much better now on a unit like Aggressors. We're re-rolling any of the hits. The fists hit more often. We can leverage exploding 6's with a Strat, and Veteran Intercessor Sarges with fists are no joke. 

 

It's something I've been starting to use more as I get more aggressive with my Ultra infantry squad. This has been really notable against Death Guard (Chaos), Orks, and GSC.

[chapter master 454]

Okay so I've run some experiments with a unit I think we all agree had very good value BEFORE the new codex, but fell out of favour almost the instant the codex came out.

 

The Ancient. The reason I say this is we got addicted to our 3+ shoot from the dead. But since our multiwound models have been improved, this also brings the Apothecary to the forefront a little bit more than our previous codex did.

 

So the old -I'll shoot before I die- and get resurrected after by the Apothecary is still valid. And the incentive to use Aggressors and Centurions (of any kind) had increased significantly. 

 

The second part to this though is the Standard of Macragge Inviolate. The extra attack within 6" is much better now on a unit like Aggressors. We're re-rolling any of the hits. The fists hit more often. We can leverage exploding 6's with a Strat, and Veteran Intercessor Sarges with fists are no joke. 

 

It's something I've been starting to use more as I get more aggressive with my Ultra infantry squad. This has been really notable against Death Guard (Chaos), Orks, and GSC.

 

I mean, if you wanted to go full blender how about going for some incursors?

Whirlwind of Rage, Chaplain litany that gives you extra attack, the banner and charge. So now, each 6 is now only 3 hits instead of 1 but another attack that can also explode (note the litany states extra attacks, not hits). Activate Gene-Wrought Might and boom, you'd have some fairly beastly damage dealers I would think.

 

I think when Incursors come out, they will be a surprise unit, mainly because the pair combat blades en mass could be fairly powerful (and hey, you could instead go white scars if you wanted for +1D).

[crazyterran]

I think the problem with Ancients (for example, our Chapter One, that is extra range, better save) is that it's 75 points for a chance to shoot extra shots when an infantry model dies, when in fact you could just take 2 more Lascannons or 2-3 more missile launchers, etc. 

 

Him, an Apothecary, and a Chapter Champion is pretty good if you are filling out the elites slots for your Brigade, being 180pts for some decent support (and heck, as other people pointed out, Champions can be pretty mean if you give him one of your relics and point him at something). 

 

This does bring up the point if the Champion w/ Burning Blade is worth it - after all, having a 3++ on your CM giving out auras is a godsend, and the Seal of Oaths is practically a must have. I suppose If you are taking Calgar, and/or are getting an alternative means of a high save or invulnerable save, it's not quite as necessary, but with so many good relics, is spending a CC relic on a character with relatively low mobility the best option? 

 

Though, I am kind of wondering if the Chapter Ancient/Champion counts as a named character, since they doesn't pay for their wargear and has a set load out/points cost. 

[Cornishman]

For those keeping to Ultramarines (as opposed to Successors) Honour Guard, and especially Victrix Honour Guard seem to offer an appealing combination of abilities:

• They work as (cheap) bodyguards offering 10pts/W ablative armour. To help keep those wonderful buff machines alive long.
• They are durable with 2+, and in the case of Victrix 3++ (okay the Victrix lack any ranged weapon but you generally aren’t lacking for bolters).
• With Angels of Death pack a surprising number of power weaponed attacks, and in the case of Victrix may Heroically intervene. To me they look very handy in counter-attack, and can easily be supported/ support other units in a more offensive manner.

The Chapter Ancient looks good. To me the increase to a 9” bubble synergies well with both Relic banners. Combined with the Standard of the Emperor Ascendant it offers a mighty 12” bubble allowing the possibility of one last attack, or with Standard of Macragge Inviolate it means positioning on the table is a lot easier if you want to both keep your buffs (keep the unit within 6" to get +1A) and get your last actions in death (remove a model in 9").

The combination of a character with Nobility Made Manifest and the stratagem Defensive Focus means that things charging can easily get more than they bargained for. Especially if those units who just Heroically Intervened are also buffed by the Calm under Fire Trait.

As others have already said the Chapter Champion with a couple of CPs can produce a large no. of Str 8 attacks. For those on a budget the Company Champion does only a slighty worse job.
 

[crazyterran]

I'm pretty sure the Chapter Ancient rule only applies to the actual Astartes Banner buff, not the relic buffs on top of it. 

[Cornishman]

I'm pretty sure the Chapter Ancient rule only applies to the actual Astartes Banner buff, not the relic buffs on top of it. 

Yeah can see how Chapter Ancient + The Standard of the Emperor Ascendant is a bit of a murky one.

Have edited the Chapter Ancient + Standard of Macragge Involiate for clarity (i.e. getting the standard ancient banner ability for 9", and the +1 A for units in 6")

[Captain Idaho]

The Standard of Maccragge Inviolate is an incredibly powerful Relic. I'm considering a Cataphractii Terminator squad alongside a Captain and Ancient jumping out of a Land Raider to do some smashing. An old fashioned Deathstar.

 

The only real thing to consider is whether you want to take the Ultramarines Chapter Ancient. He can't go into a Repulsor so it slows down any potential assault force if you're using Aggressors. For that purpose I'd recommend taking a Primaris Ancient.

 

Otherwise always take the Chapter Ancient. He's superior over the "mundane" Company Ancient and is fairly cheap for just 75pts.

[Prot]

 

Okay so I've run some experiments with a unit I think we all agree had very good value BEFORE the new codex, but fell out of favour almost the instant the codex came out.

 

The Ancient. The reason I say this is we got addicted to our 3+ shoot from the dead. But since our multiwound models have been improved, this also brings the Apothecary to the forefront a little bit more than our previous codex did.

 

So the old -I'll shoot before I die- and get resurrected after by the Apothecary is still valid. And the incentive to use Aggressors and Centurions (of any kind) had increased significantly. 

 

The second part to this though is the Standard of Macragge Inviolate. The extra attack within 6" is much better now on a unit like Aggressors. We're re-rolling any of the hits. The fists hit more often. We can leverage exploding 6's with a Strat, and Veteran Intercessor Sarges with fists are no joke. 

 

It's something I've been starting to use more as I get more aggressive with my Ultra infantry squad. This has been really notable against Death Guard (Chaos), Orks, and GSC.

 

I mean, if you wanted to go full blender how about going for some incursors?

Whirlwind of Rage, Chaplain litany that gives you extra attack, the banner and charge. So now, each 6 is now only 3 hits instead of 1 but another attack that can also explode (note the litany states extra attacks, not hits). Activate Gene-Wrought Might and boom, you'd have some fairly beastly damage dealers I would think.

 

I think when Incursors come out, they will be a surprise unit, mainly because the pair combat blades en mass could be fairly powerful (and hey, you could instead go white scars if you wanted for +1D).

 

 

I think the Incursors will be good as well. At this point I think we're all just waiting on the kit, but the paired blades, and additional stuff is going to make them as you say, beastly.

 

The Banner I mention because this is a Sleeper unit. I think it was largely written off because of the nerf to the relic version. But I am not finding it -that- bad, but if you add in the Macragge Inviolate, I think it's worth looking at. 

 

I'm taking it again next game and I'll let you guys know, but I have no idea what I'm playing against.

[OrkPlayer137]

Otherwise always take the Chapter Ancient. He's superior over the "mundane" Company Ancient and is fairly cheap for just 75pts.

 

Another option is the Terminator Ancient if you need to free up space in a transport - Deep Strike him in, then just make sure that one of the charging models hangs back slightly to keep the unit within 6" of the banner (while still being within 1" of a model within 1" of the enemy). Much higher points cost though, especially as he must have a powerfist - 98 points in total.

[Captain Idaho]

Good point. The old "daisy chain" tactic can work, though you might be sacrificing 2 models getting into combat to achieve it and he can't support characters with it that way.

 

Also, a Terminator Ancient is going to be a tougher customer and dish out more powerful attacks.

[Kallas]

Good point. The old "daisy chain" tactic can work, though you might be sacrificing 2 models getting into combat to achieve it and he can't support characters with it that way.

You can deep strike and sacrifice zero attacks with 32mm bases:

[Prot]

Is that diagram basically saying if you’re within an inch of an engaged model, you get to attack?

[Kallas]

Is that diagram basically saying if you’re within an inch of an engaged model, you get to attack?

Yes - that's the rule for units in the Fight phase.

 

A model needs to be within 1" of an enemy, or within 1" of a model in its unit that is, to be able to fight.

 

The diagram is showing that one model can trail back, within 1" of a unit member who is within 1" of an enemy, and be within 6" of the buffing aura.

 

Basically, you don't need to sacrifice any attacks, assuming your buffer is deep striking right up on the unit you're charging - obviously, if there are other screening elements then it changes.

[Captain Idaho]

Of course! I forgot about the larger base size! This changes quit a bit.