Facing triple gallants

[Brother Castle]

As the title suggests how would/do people deal with this?.
For context, it's looking like me, and my friend are the front runners to win our current league, and we will be playing for the top spot at some point.
It's 1500 point base with an additional 200 points of mercenaries, limited by unit type, i.e. troops, HQ etc. 
He's running the aforementioned triple gallants or the chaos equivalent, two warglaives and a lord discordant.
I honestly don't think I stand much of a chance I run a mech guard list full of chimaera and a few tank commanders. Outside of playing the mission, which might not be an option, all I can really think of doing is feeding his knights my chimaera and hoping he doesn't get to my TC's while I try to take out a knight a turn.

 

My full list for reference.

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [63 PL, 8CP, 900pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Tallarn

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 41pts]
. 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 41pts]
. 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 41pts]
. 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 41pts]
. 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 41pts]
. 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword

+ Elites +

Platoon Commander [2 PL, 21pts]: Boltgun

+ Fast Attack +

Hellhounds [12 PL, 234pts]
. Hellhound: Heavy Flamer, Track guards, Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon
. Hellhound: Heavy Flamer, Track guards, Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chimera [6 PL, 76pts]: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter

Chimera [6 PL, 76pts]: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter

Chimera [6 PL, 76pts]: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter

Chimera [6 PL, 76pts]: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter

Chimera [6 PL, 76pts]: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [36 PL, , 600pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [1CP]

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

Vigilus Defiant [-1CP]: Emperor's Fist Tank Company

+ HQ +

Tank Commander [12 PL, 200pts]: Battle Cannon, Emperor's Fist, Heavy Bolters, Lascannon

Tank Commander [12 PL, 200pts]: Battle Cannon, Display Tank Orders, Emperor's Fist, Heavy Bolters, Lascannon, Old Grudges, Relic (Emperor's Fist): Hammer of Sunderance, Warlord

Tank Commander [12 PL, 200pts]: Battle Cannon, Emperor's Fist, Heavy Bolters, Lascannon

++ Total: [99 PL, 8CP, 1,500pts] ++

[sairence]

So, you run a list very similar to my style, main difference is that I Catachan tanks. Same benefits as Cadian Tank Commandets, but you can move without losing your reroll 1s, as you just use the order. The main reason for me to go with Cadians is that you can bring 3 TCs and Pask. So maybe you can drop some stuff to include him, if you want to stick with Cadian. Or at least upgrade one of the other TCs to him.

 

I would put the Warlord trait on one of your infantry characters, to avoid it getting killed easily.

 

Other than that...disperse. The Warglaives hit hard and fast but should die relatively easily to Battlecannons. It's a tough list to match up against though alright.

[Gederas]

Well, here's the thing.

 

There's actually TWO different CQC Knights with Chainsword/Fist for Chaos. A Despoiler or a Rampager. Both are running the same weapon loadouts, but they're different in their abilities.

 

The real way of telling is if they have a carapace weapon on its back. The Rampager doesn't have that option, whereas the Despoiler-Gallant does. However if none are running a carapace weapon.... Well, then you'll only really know which is which during the game. Which is fun :lol:

 

But yeah. Gonna echo sairence here and say spread out. You're not going to stop them from killing your things in melee, but you can make it so it takes them a while to actually do that.

[sairence]

Thinking further...the Lord Discordant can be a bit of a pain as well. Friend of mine proxied 3 of them in a test match and they were hard to shift. They're only T6, but a 2+ save can be tricky to overcome with Battlecannons. His -1 to vehicle units aura is also nasty when he manages to come close. They also have a silly amount of attacks.

 

I would honestly rebuild your list. You have a solid all comers list while he goes full on high toughness targets and threat overload. Your Hellhounds and Chimeras can run into his stuff, but won't do significant damage. So right now your best chance is to play the mission, as you're unlikely to kill more than one important target a turn.

 

I would probably drop the Chimeras and try to get more Lascannons and Battlecannons in the mix. The Hellhounds can still act as your roadblocks, but don't expect them to achieve too much. You also need to keep mobile so he can't concentrate his forces.

[librisrouge]

Some generic advice as an IG and Knight player, tied to your list.

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [63 PL, 8CP, 900pts] ++

+ HQ +
Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol
One of these guys needs to be your Warlord. Knights don't struggle to kill tanks, at all. Keeping an officer as your warlord means he is easier to hide and keep alive.
+ Troops +
Infantry Squad [3 PL, 41pts]
. 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword
These guys are 100% sacrificial and don't be shy to use them as such. Remember that knights can fall back over infantry, so do not charge these guys in. Instead use orders (Move, Move, Move!) to wrap a knight with bodies so that it has to spend its entire turn killing one messily infantry squad. Otherwise, keep pounding away with shots and hope to add the odd wound in where you can.
+ Elites +
Platoon Commander [2 PL, 21pts]: Boltgun
This guy won't add much to the battle except to give you another order. Consider giving him the dagger relic and having him and one squad go into the enemy's backfield, forcing him to divide his melee-centric attention in two directions to stop you from snagging objectives.
+ Fast Attack +
Hellhounds [12 PL, 234pts]
. Hellhound: Heavy Flamer, Track guards, Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon
. Hellhound: Heavy Flamer, Track guards, Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon
These guys will snag a surprising number of wounds for you. Do NOT be afraid to play them recklessly and aggressively. You'll snag a few wounds on attack, a few more on overwatch, and a few more if you blow up. He'll be forced to address you eventually that those should be turns where he doesn't charge your russ.
+ Dedicated Transport +
Chimera [6 PL, 76pts]: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter
Aside from your russ, these guys will be key to your victory. Put them in his way. Make a wall of tanks just spread out enough to not attack two at a time but close enough that he can't walk between them to get at your tanks. Ideally, he charge a chimera, kill it, you'll spill out the infantry inside and move them to surround the knight, he'll have to charge them, will slaughter them, and only then will he be able to get to your russ. That means each squad buys you two turns of shooting. This will be critical. 
++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [36 PL, , 600pts] ++
+ HQ +
Tank Commander [12 PL, 200pts]: Battle Cannon, Emperor's Fist, Heavy Bolters, Lascannon
Treat these guys as snipers. You need them to count. Try to get another unit (anything not a russ) to cause even a single wound and use Overlapping Fields of Fire to really drive your point home. Target one knight at a time and ruin it. With Old Grudges (for the first guy) and OFoF, you can potentially pick up a knight a turn. This is the dream. Avoid moving, so deploy these guys into places where you can effectively get game wide shots while the rest of the army buys them time. Save CP re-rolls for the lascannons to-wound rolls since, ideally, they're hitting on 2s re-rollable anyway.
Tank Commander [12 PL, 200pts]: Battle Cannon, Display Tank Orders, Emperor's Fist, Heavy Bolters, Lascannon, Old Grudges, Relic (Emperor's Fist): Hammer of Sunderance, Warlord
Do not make this guy your warlord. He's too easily killed. And you need that relic cannon a ton. 
Tank Commander [12 PL, 200pts]: Battle Cannon, Emperor's Fist, Heavy Bolters, Lascannon
See above.
++ Total: [99 PL, 8CP, 1,500pts] ++

A word of caution. Knights are FAST. Faster than most people appreciate. You're probably not going to outrun 3 of them for a whole game, plus the rest of his army (which is likely faster.) That Lord DIscordant should be treated as just another melee knight. You've got to kill at least 2 of them quickly in order to give yourself some breathing room.

 

Also, warglaves cannot fallback and charge. Consider, in a pinch, using that to your advantage. Charge in with a infantry squad. Have CPs to help them survive morale. Then laugh as you lock it down for a turn or more.

 

Your 200 extra points should be used to get you more AT. Consider things like lascannon heavy weapon squads. Normally meh but he lacks ranged and you can plop them into cover to survive a few stubbers for long enough to matter. Another russ of just about any flavor (not punisher) is also sound. If you're role locked, consider scion squads. Their special weapons make then invaluable and deep strike can be used to capture late game points.

Edited August 26, 2019 by librisrouge

[Brother Castle]

Thanks for all the replies,

they are all good points and have given me food for thought!!

 

Playing the mission won't work, I don't think if he gets first turn he will be in my face, and I won't have much choice but to try and win a straight-up fight with his three rampagers.

 

That said I'm not at all concerned about sacrificing anything in my list to tie up his units i like the idea of using the guardsmen to circle them I hadn't thought about that.

I can squeeze back into the list, and it would be the only way of getting another Leman Russ into the list without taking normal ones (i have 7 in total). I could then use the mercenary points to keep the third TC.

I don't have a massive guard collection so no heavy weapon teams yet, and the only other laz cannons I have ar on sentinels.

[librisrouge]

Tallarn sentinels with las might not be a bad idea. They can move and shoot well and are fast enough to spread out. If he ignores them, you might be able to use Go, Recon to get some late game objectives and force him to play your game.

 

Just food for thought.

[MARK0SIAN]

I can’t really add much to what has been said but one thing I’ve found good with the russes is to combine defensive gunners with vengeance for cadia when they’re charged (and obviously they’re going to be charged). It means you’re hitting overwatch on 5s and rerolling all failed hits and wounds. For something like a LR it can amount to a fair number of hits and wounds, even on a knight.

 

If you can spare the points for vox casters on your infantry you can also use fire on my position for a few mortal wounds.

[Brother Castle]

(False alarm, the pairings were changed last minute and i didn't end up facing the knights, they are saving it for the grand finale in a few weeks so i have time to prepare.)

 

ok, so as it happens I've been paired up against my friend and we will be playing this game out later today.

 

I've been reading up on some of what the new knights can do, and I don't think I will be able to deploy him out unless the terrain favours me and I can funnel him to where my TC's can have a field day, in the interest of trying to get as much synergy and mortal wound output as I can I've gone all Cadian for the relic and the ability to used overlapping fields off any vehicle that happens to score a lucky wound, downside I've had to lose the second HB on the chimaera to add Vox for the infantry, so I can get orders where I need them but also the mortal wounds for fire on my position when they inevitably die.

 

the list already includes my merc TC.

 

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [49 PL, , 835pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [1CP]

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

Vigilus Defiant [-1CP]: Emperor's Fist Tank Company

+ HQ +

Knight Commander Pask [13 PL, 235pts]: Battle Cannon, Emperor's Fist, Heavy Bolters, Lascannon

Tank Commander [12 PL, 200pts]: Battle Cannon, Emperor's Fist, Heavy Bolters, Lascannon

Tank Commander [12 PL, 200pts]: Battle Cannon, Emperor's Fist, Heavy Bolters, Lascannon

Tank Commander [12 PL, 200pts]: Battle Cannon, Emperor's Fist, Heavy Bolters, Lascannon

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [61 PL, 8CP, 864pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol, Old Grudges, Relic (Cadia): Relic of Lost Cadia, Warlord

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 45pts]
. 8x Guardsman
. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster: Vox-caster
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 45pts]
. 8x Guardsman
. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster: Vox-caster
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 45pts]
. 8x Guardsman
. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster: Vox-caster
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 45pts]
. 8x Guardsman
. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster: Vox-caster
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 45pts]
. 8x Guardsman
. Guardsman w/ Vox-caster: Vox-caster
. Sergeant: Laspistol

+ Fast Attack +

Hellhounds [12 PL, 214pts]
. Hellhound: Heavy Flamer, Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon
. Hellhound: Heavy Flamer, Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chimera [6 PL, 73pts]: Heavy Bolter, Multi-laser

Chimera [6 PL, 73pts]: Heavy Bolter, Multi-laser

Chimera [6 PL, 73pts]: Heavy Bolter, Multi-laser

Chimera [6 PL, 73pts]: Heavy Bolter, Multi-laser

Chimera [6 PL, 73pts]: Heavy Bolter, Multi-laser

++ Total: [110 PL, 8CP, 1,699pts] ++

Edited August 27, 2019 by Brother Castle

[rcoon]

Spearhead Detachment - Cadian - Vigilus Defiant Emperor's Fist Artillery

Pask in Executioner

3 x Basilisk

Master of Ordnance (Give him WL Trait Old Grudges choosing a Knight and Kurov's Aquila)

 

Battallion Detachment - Catachan

2 TC's with Battle Cannons

Generic troops

 

Battallion Detachment - Catachan

Priest + Ogryns

Hellhounds basically

 

I've used a much more detailed list but it uses the above as a general idea. WL Trait selects one Knight. Bait a Rotate Ion Shields. Select a different knight for Pask to hit first, pop OFoF, use double shooting strat on one basilisk and use other basilisks to shoot the same one. Proceed to pound with other TCs. Keep marching Ogryn's (about 9) up the field with your Priest to get into melee with a Knight and smash it to bits. Be extremely aggressive with you Hellhounds because they will land wounds and when they explode they do MWs. I have three knight players in my meta and they all pretty much refuse to play against my IG army now.

 

Honestly its all about deploying strategically because you're guaranteed not to go first. Deploy as far back as possible, bubblewrap everything in bodies, hide behind buildings and then focus on smashing one knight a turn.

[Halfpint100]

Don't forget the relic of lost cadia! And the 1cp strat (forgot the name) where a unit can re-roll hits and wounds. That strat should be in use every turn Edited August 28, 2019 by Halfpint100

[GuardDaddy]

Nothing to add really beyond a tip of the hat to Librisrouge for his feedback - especially the infantry tactics. Id take a couple more squads if you can, really clog up the board with chaf. 

 

Tried to think of other ideas not already covered to consider.

 

Missile Launchers (or lascannons slightly more expensive) in an infantry squad is 55pts. To remove/degrade them means killing a lot of bodies at range. Might be worth considering (not at the expense of screen to throw up the board).

 

Psykers can be screened easily as chars and give mortal wound output which is especially valuable against high T opponents (3 smites still wound better stastically than a lascannon)

 

Good luck