Wondering about lack of info on Legios and households

[Kenzaburo]

Hey there,

 

thanks to the ICs podcast I just picked up the rules set for AT as well as a box of knights. I was hoping for the rulebook to be layoutet like most GW and FW rules: lore, rules and then a variety of armies and backgrounds.

 

The latter part is in fact the problem. There's rules for Gryphonicus and Tempestus, but there's also colorplates for Mortis and several knight housholds like Vyroni and the like. So, uhm, is there something like codexes that give me more variety of special army rules and especially a sorted layout like you'd expect from a codex? I mean, Codex IK not just shows you the different knight classes but introduces major houses and their specialties... where is all that? It was actually not even easy just by looking whose side Mortis is on (I know they are traitors, but the layout wasn't being exactly clear).

 

Do I have to get Molech and Titandeath as sort of codexes? I'm a bit disappointed that FW didn't at least include two Legios for each side in the basic rules and actually provide a bit more info on knights overall.

[Marshal Wolfhart]

I think Titandeath is what you look for. There's rules for several legios on both sides. Doom of Molech is mostly for Knights from what i gather (i own neither of those books yet, for Titandeath there is a free pdf in German with the Legio rules). There also was a White Dwarf, i don't remember which issue, sadly, that contained rules to produce homebrew legios. Hope this helped, maybe someone more informed can fill in :D

[Mendi Warrior]

Titandeath and Doom of Molech are both containing specific titan legions and more rules. In fact, the "expansion" books cover each 4 legios, 2 loyalists and 2 traitors. Doom of Molech is also more focused on knights households. Best is to have a look at GW website to see what is covered in the current 3 books (original rule set, Titandeath and Doom of Molech) so you can get a first idea of the legios currently having rules. The goal is to add more legios as more expansion books are produced, aim being something like 3-4 books per year if I remember correctly.

 

I think the WD issue was the July one (I don't own it unfortunately).

[Beren]

Doom of Molech contains stuff for 4 Legios and 6 Knight Households. Titandeath contains stuff for 8 Titan Legios. Both also possess several maniple types. The latter books have better layouts of these rules, but in terms of fluff the Horus Heresy Black Books will have far more for the Legios that have been covered in them. (Mortis, Atarus, Tempestus, Gryphonicus and Fureans are the ones that I believe overlap do far.)

[noigrim]

Mortis is in titandeath

[Kenzaburo]

Thanks so much guys, that is helpful, if a bit disappointing. So basic AT really only gives you Gryphonicus and Tempestus. 

 

Since I only got a box of knights so far, I was looking forward to some background on knight houses of the heresy. Guess I gotta see if I can find out some info with a bit of google-fu then. :)

 

I also got that White Dwarf, so I'm gonna take a look there, too.

[noigrim]

To be fair legio rules are only.one page so you can print it and call it a day

[Kilofix]

Titan Death:

 

Loyalists:

Legio Astorum

Legio Solaria

Legio Defensor

Legio Atarus

 

Renegades:

Legio Mortis

Legio Krytos

Legio Vulpa

Legio Fureans

 

 

 

Molech:

 

Loyalists:

Legio Crucius

Legio Fortidus

 

Renegades:

Legio Interfector

Legio Vulcanum

[DuskRaider]

It should also be pointed out that although there are rules for the Houses of Molech in Doom of Molech, there's not too much that differentiates the Houses from each other rules wise. Very little things, which is somewhat disappointing.

[Sandlemad]

Since I only got a box of knights so far, I was looking forward to some background on knight houses of the heresy. Guess I gotta see if I can find out some info with a bit of google-fu then.

 

To be honest AT has a paucity of background in it books in general. Titandeath and particularly Doom of Molech are better but we're still talking about a few paragraphs per faction or similar.

 

Most of the detailed 'modern' background for titan legions and knight houses are scattered across the various FW heresy books. You can find a lot of that information on the 40k wiki. Not a great resource generally but does 'summarise' a lot of the FW books' background in a lot of detail, e.g. for House Vyroni: https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/House_Vyronii

[Mandragola]

Also the Doom of Molech knightly houses are all only the ones involved on Molech. There’s very little information on any of them fighting elsewhere in the heresy war and all but one (which turned during the war) are loyalist.

 

You could do a “counts as” thing using the rules for one of those houses to represent somebody else. In any case the household rules do hardly anything. You get a trait for your seneschal and a stratagem. The stratagem isn’t even in the book – you have to buy the OOP cards. But you do need the Molech book to run a knight army, as it includes the rules for doing so.

 

Finally, you cannot combine a knight household with a titan legion force including any maniples. We think (the rules are maddeningly unclear) that you can bring individual titans along in support. So you can use the knight lance formations in the Molech book or the titan maniples detailed in the main book – but not both together.

[Kenzaburo]

Ok, thanks so far for all the input. This continues to be somewhat disheartening. I was expecting more from FW. 

 

@Mandragola: Is this something Molech-specific or general? Because I thought you can play a Titan maniple with added knight support. Like buy the titan battlegroup, a box of knights and basically have an army to play.

 

I'm also somewhat surprised how chaotic the information on Titan Legions and Knight households online seem to be. A lot of names of Legions, but not much visual material. It doesn't help that most of the colour schemes I like seem to be traitors, while I'm a staunch loyalist player. :)

[Dark Bjoern]

You can play a titan maniple and add a household support. That´s legal.

Or you can play a knights only list according to Doom of Molech. 

[DuskRaider]

When you (legally) add Knight Banners to a Titan Maniple, they're not using the Knight House rules in Molech. They're just individual Knight Banners.

 

When you use the Knight House rules in Molech, you cannot field them (legally) in tandem with a Titan Maniple.

 

However, if you and your opponent agree to it I'm sure you could field them together, although it would be a ton of points and unless your opponent also has both I can't see it being too much fun.

[noigrim]

Christ, we've got two supplements in a year, you can't ask more than that

[Kenzaburo]

Was that directed at me, Noigrim? 

 

I'm not trying to whine here. I'm just surprised because GW and FW are usually pretty good with the balance between rules, background info, pretty model pictures and the like. And the AT rulebook seemed light on lore and model pictures.

 

And admittedly the layout is a bit problematic with rules for two legions crammed into the very last pages while teasing several other legions and households, without ever giving more info on them. At least not in an ordered way. It's a bit different from their usual style and to me at least, this is not a change for the better.

 

I feel I can be surprised at that without whining (too much ;) ). Let's just say there's room for improvement on that part. And Andy Hoare's Voxcast, where he talked about the love for the background and being a lore writer for some time, had me expect more on that part.

 

Maybe I wouldn't feel like this if I were more familiar with titan lore during the heresy. But I'm not. And the heresy, at least to me, is a bit about historical wargaming in a way, so I kinda expect there to be more ... let's say guidelines on armies, insignia, their histories and stuff like that.

 

Them putting out content in general is a good thing tho, sure. But I never questioned that. It's just different from what I expected. :)

 

Now, in case you weren't directing that at me, never mind. ;)

[MegaVolt87]

I am after any kind of pics for knights from House Caesarean or House Kepsydra colour schemes. I can't find any pics, if they are in the books could someone post them up here ? 

[noigrim]

I mean the heresy in 28mm has been suffering a long draught of publications since the death of Bligh, Titanicus instead has had lots of love and effort poured in, more than necromunda or blood bowl

[DuskRaider]

Yup. They even released Create-Your-Own-Legio rules in a recent White Dwarf... that seem to be easily abused, but still...

 

Titanicus has gotten a lot of love, more than I think GW even anticipated for. That being said, I don't think we'll see any new material the remainder of the year. We do know we'll see at least the Heavy Bolter carapace weapon for the Reaver and fingers crossed weapons for the Cerastus variants.

[Mandragola]

I found the Molech and Titandeath books pretty different. Titandeath has more background and Legios whereas Molech has more general rules for everyone – with the knight households and a load of new stratagems.

 

I don’t think the rules for the different Legios in Titandeath are at all balanced. Some of the abilities are great while others do nothing or are even harmful. So for example the Atarus traits slightly improves your chance of getting priority on turn 1, when it doesn’t really matter, and you can buy incendiary missiles that do nothing. Astorum has mainly awesome traits but there’s a Princeps trait where you can roll the order dice instead of taking a normal order (probably on a 2+ on a D10, because it’s the princeps seniors). This is like playing the sabotage stratagem on your own warlord.

 

A lot of people think the “create your own Legio” rules are OP. I don’t exactly agree with this. But it’s a major advantage to be able to pick four Legio traits that actually do something. Since you won’t have any “wasted” traits (like almost all the “official” Legios do), you end up more powerful by default. That’s not really because the create your own rules are too good, but just because by (usually) you’ll have four meaningful selections. You don’t get a princeps table to roll on but I can’t think of any Legio where that would feel like a particularly big loss.

 

The Molech book does have a lot of info on the knights that were on Molech, but few of those households has much of a presence anywhere else – due to mostly being devastated by that war. So it’s not much use if you want to represent the wider heresy war. On the plus side, the Legios are probably better balanced than the Titandeath ones, with four decent Legios. The knight household rules are far less significant than the Legio rules, as they only have a trait for their Seneschal and a stratagem, and the stratagems aren’t even written into the book. And there are some very powerful stratagems, which is really what makes this a must-have book – unless you can get hold of the cards.

[noigrim]

Hmm the molech book gives you a boatload of stratagems both for knights and titans

[Kenzaburo]

Thanks for all the additional info. So far I have decided on a knight house, Orhlacc, and am still pondering which Legio to go for. Astraman and Crucius are my two preferred choices. I actually don't care that much about rules for the Legios, but the lore is what I'm after. That's what I was going on about in the OP. I was hoping for more infos on the households and Legios akin to what you get in an old Index Astartes article or something like short excerpts similar to what you find in codexes about the sub-factions. 

 

Surprisingly, the lore for titan legions is all over the place, some tidbits in the Titanicus books, some in the black books and a little bit more on households in the 40k knight codex. It's more a critique than a complaint. So far all I can say is that painting tiny knights is fun.