Codex: Space Marines... just a few changes

[L30n1d4s]

As I have said in other threads, I think (and I believe I am not alone in this) that GW hit it out of the park with the recent SM Codex, not to mention the high quality Supplements for Ultramarines and White Scars (I am looking forward to all the other First Founding Chapters getting their own unique rules as well!).

 

 

Honestly, the thing that impresses me the most about the new Codex is how it makes almost all units useable/competitive again, especially in a "fluffy" context, where the forces you see on the tabletop match what you would expect based on the background/lore (I.e. Space Marines storming in on Drop Pods Turn 1, Astartes infantry advancing relentlessly with Bolters roaring, Dreadnoughts shrugging off massive blows and continuing to fight with ease, etc. etc.).

 

 

There are only a handful of units right now that I would consider "non-competitive" or that I would struggle to justify taking in a tournament type list. With just a few changes, I think these could be brought in line and GW would have reached the "Holy Grail" of every unit in the codex being a viable choice.

 

 

Here are, in my opinion, the few SM units that need help and some proposed changes I think would bring them "up to speed" with the rest of the army choices:

 

 

---

1) All Terminator units (including TDA Characters, Cataphractii, Tartaros) and all Land Raider variants -- Currently these units are still a bit underwhelming in their durability, both on the tabletop and in the context of their fluff, especially compared to their newly improved Aggressor/Centurion brethren (on the infantry side) and the Repulsor/Repulsor Executioner (on the vehicle side).

***SOLUTION: Give them the special rule "Indestructible Resiliency" which causes all attacks (both shooting and melee) against them to suffer a -1 to their to Wound rolls. Fluff-wise, this would help better represent how amazing durable TDA Astartes and Land Raiders are supposed to be, to the point that they are all but invincible against small arms fire and require truly dedicated "Anti-Tank/Anti-Monster" style weaponry to kill. Gameplay-wise, this would help them compete with the newly buffed Aggressors (who have T5 and 3W each), Centurions (T5, 4W, and 2+ save), and the different Repulsor Variants as a competitive, but still unique, option. Basically, while TDA still be only T4/2W base and Land Raiders would still lack the ability fall back from combat and shoot, this rule would enable them to soak up significantly more damage and they could better serve as the "anvil" for your army against concentrated enemy attacks.

 

 

2) Stalkers and Hunters -- Even with the new Stratagem to buff them, they still struggle to excel in their primary role as an Air Defense platform and are not versatile enough for other jobs to justify taking them in an "all comers" list.

***SOLUTION: Give them both a rule called "Flak Fusillade" which functions like the Relic Whirlwind Scorpius, i.e. allows the Hunter and Stalker, if they do not move, to shoot a second time in the Shooting phase, as long as the second time they fire they are targeting a unit with at least one model that has the FLY key Word. Fluff-wise, this represents their ability to saturate the skies with deadly anti-flyer munitions and, in terms of gameplay, this would make them genuinely dangerous against the most common flyers in the game, meaning that opposing players would have to expend significant effort in destroying your Hunter or Stalker in order to keep his FLY units safe.

 

 

3) Vindicators -- Despite getting upgraded to D6 shots all the time now, they still struggle to compete with other Heavy Support options like Predators, Whirlwinds, Devastator Centurions, Hellblasters, Eliminators, etc.  

***SOLUTION: Change the damage of their Demolisher Cannon from "Dmg D6" to "Dmg 3 +D3." This guarantees them at least 4 Dmg per wound inflicted (and still up to 6 Dmg, if you roll well), in turn giving them the role as the army's high damage output "siege engines," used to instant kill 4/5/6W models like Custodes Bikers, Centurions, Grotesques, Broadsides,  etc., as well as put reliably high damage on enemy vehicles and fortifications, all of which matches their fluff and gives them a unique/defined role within the Codex.

 

 

4) Suppressors -- Overall these are fine, but are limited by their numbers and damage output (i.e. a full squad of Suppressors only has the same damage output as a single Invictor Tactical Warsuit with the Twin Ironhail Autocannon).

***SOLUTION: Allow the squad to have size of 3-6 models, just like their Inceptor cousins, and give them the "Phobos" Key Word. This not only doubles the potential damage they can put out, but enables them to maximize their usefulness by making the most of any buffs, Stratagems, Psychic Powers, etc. that you put on them (and also makes them able to benefit from things like Phobos WL Traits and the Obscuration Discipline, which makes them even more versatile and useable).

 

 

5) Reivers -- While they are solid right now with their points drop and improved Terror Troop rules, I still think they need some enhancement to compete with all the other great Elite choices in the Space Marine Codex.

***SOLUTION: Give them a special rule called "Deadly Close Combat Fighters" which increases the range of all their grenade weapons to 12" and lets them re-roll To Wound rolls for all shooting/close combat attacks directed against enemy Infantry models within 12". This would give Reivers a significant boost in their ability to kill infantry at close range and in melee, which should be their forte and matches their fluff, and also makes it so they could actually make use of their Concussion grenades the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve.

 

 

6) Servitors -- These guys often go unnoticed (and unused) because they are so vanilla and bring almost nothing to the army except cheap bodies to fill out an Elites slot in a Brigade.

***SOLUTION: Grant them a special rule called "Servants of the Forge," which enables a Techmarine within 6" of a squad of friendly <Chapter> Servitors to repair 3 wounds on a friendly <Chapter> vehicle instead of the normal D3 wounds. The idea here is that it gives a Space Marine player incentive to spend the 20 points on a 4 man Servitor Squad in order to guarantee repairing 3 Wounds a turn on a vehicle, which gives them a real reason to exist with an Astartes army.

 

 

7) Assault Space Marines -- While slightly cheaper in the new Codex, they still are really hard to justify taking, especially when everything they do Vanguard Vets do significantly better/more flexibly, for just a few points per model.

***SOLUTION: Give Assault Space Marines a special rule called "Tip of the Spear" which grants them +1" to their charge distance if they arrived from reserves that turn (this would include after disembarking from Drop Pods, for ASM without Jump Packs) and gives them the ability to make a free pre-game Move (but not Advance) after deployment is done, but before the beginning of the first battle round. This would incentivized using them as early game screening/skirmishers unit to disrupt your opponent and also as a later game Deep Strike disruption type unit which can more reliably get the charge off without any external support. While Vanguard Veterans would still be much better as a pure melee or "hammer" unit, this would at least give ASM a "niche" role that they could affordably play in many army lists.

 

---

 

While the Space Marine Codex really doesn't need any changes to be great (it already is terrific, IMHO), I think these changes would really make a difference and give the last few outlying units the extra "push" they needed to be consistently a competitive choice.

 

NOTE: These changes would of course also be ultimately applied to all the other Astartes armies that have access to the same units l(i.e. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Death Watch, Grey Knights, the various Heretic Astartes factions, etc.), once they got their Codices updated.

Edited August 27, 2019 by L30n1d4s

[MajorNese]

1) All Terminator units (including TDA Characters, Cataphractii, Tartaros) and all Land Raider variants -- Currently these units are still a bit underwhelming on the tabletop and in the context of their fluff, especially compared to their newly improved Aggressor/Centurion brethren (on the infantry side) and the Repulsor/Repulsor Executioner (on the vehicle side).

 

***SOLUTION: Give them the special rule "Indestructible Resiliency" which lets them re-roll failed armor saves (but not Invulnerable Saves) of 1s.

As someone still remembering the Lucky Sticks Warboss - nope, a rerollable 2+ save is not fun. Especially not unit wide.

 

I'd see potential with limiting multi wound damage - terminators and Landraiders reducing multiwound damage by 1 would give them the resilience they are said to have, without needing ridiculous amounts of shots to get something through. A single terminator with rerollable 2+ save would tank 72 wounds, that's simply too much. The bigger issue is 2D weaponry with medium AP - a single failed save is a dead terminator, and those weapons are easy to come by. Reducing the damage by 1 would go quite some way to fix terminators, without breaking the game for armies with mostly AP0 weaponry.

[Captain Idaho]

I have no problem with a Re-roll 1s save on Terminators and Land Raiders (I'd add Dreadnoughts to the list and even give them a 2+ save) as in a world of modifiers it's not going to change much.

 

The problem Terminators face is D2 weapons. An autocannon is more terrifying to Terminator squads than a Lascannon. If Terminator squads had 3 wounds it would solve many problems straight off the bat.

[Larkyn]

 

1) All Terminator units (including TDA Characters, Cataphractii, Tartaros) and all Land Raider variants -- Currently these units are still a bit underwhelming on the tabletop and in the context of their fluff, especially compared to their newly improved Aggressor/Centurion brethren (on the infantry side) and the Repulsor/Repulsor Executioner (on the vehicle side).

 

***SOLUTION: Give them the special rule "Indestructible Resiliency" which lets them re-roll failed armor saves (but not Invulnerable Saves) of 1s.

As someone still remembering the Lucky Sticks Warboss - nope, a rerollable 2+ save is not fun. Especially not unit wide.

 

I'd see potential with limiting multi wound damage - terminators and Landraiders reducing multiwound damage by 1 would give them the resilience they are said to have, without needing ridiculous amounts of shots to get something through. A single terminator with rerollable 2+ save would tank 72 wounds, that's simply too much. The bigger issue is 2D weaponry with medium AP - a single failed save is a dead terminator, and those weapons are easy to come by. Reducing the damage by 1 would go quite some way to fix terminators, without breaking the game for armies with mostly AP0 weaponry.

 

 

 

The proposal is not reroll saves, it's reroll 1's.

 

Granted, an AP0 weapon grants "full rerolls", but how many times are you going to realistically shoot lasguns at a land raider?

 

A lascannon instead, it's then 5+, rerolling 1's. Still likely going to fail, but at least you have a better chance than just flat 5+.

[MajorNese]

 

Granted, an AP0 weapon grants "full rerolls", but how many times are you going to realistically shoot lasguns at a land raider?

LandRaider maybe, but reducing multi damage would help a lot more. How often are you realistically killing a Land Raider with flashlights? And of how much use is a reroll when a lascannon hits? It would not solve the underlying issue of good AT weaponry taking it down quickly, yet would royally screw over anything else.

 

You already need 36 lasgun hits to inflict a single wound. I doubt anyone would use 1152 lasgun shots (at BS4+) as their primary AT. And even if they do - facing 500+ guardsmen, I guess you have other problems. Like with board control.

 

On terminators, it would be entirely broken. Most standard weaponry would be beyond ineffective, anything short of special weapons wouldn't work at all. Back to the good old days of 7th ed IK lists - "Oh, you can forget every weapon lower than S6, it just cannot damage me at all".

[Subtleknife]

Whilst gw has addressed the offence issue of marines I still think they are too squishy. They feel quite like space elves to me atm as in glass cannons. I would have liked a 2 plus save across the board. Dont get me wrong I am very happy with the DeX and expect to get nothing more.nust wishlisting. Edited August 27, 2019 by Subtleknife

[L30n1d4s]

OK, good points all around here on the Terminators and Land Raider special rule.

 

An alternate solution, which I think actually works better (both in terms of representing fluff well and being useful, but not "over-the-top" good on the tabletop) is for the "Indestructible Resiliency"  special rule to just cause all attacks against the unit with it to have -1 to Wound.

 

This makes it even more difficult for small arms to damage them (i.e. Lasguns only wound Terminators on a 6+ and literally cannot wound a Land Raider unless they have a buff to their to Wound roll from somewhere else, both of which are "accurate" representations of how this would be in the fluff), while also increasing the chance of their surviving a hit from more powerful weapons (i.e. Autocannons would only wound Terminators on a 4+ now and Land Raiders on 6+, while Lascannons would wound TDA on a 3+ and Land Raiders on a 4+, respectively), but without being so powerful that they are literally invincible, which makes the game no fun for anyone.

 

I will update the OP with this variation of the special rule. 

Edited August 27, 2019 by L30n1d4s

[Dracos]

I'd be interested to see a list of D2 across all factions. Then I'd start looking how those factions have stacked competitively in the meta over the last year or so and if those are weapons we see used frequently in competitive environments. 

 

Its too hard to judge a particular unit or weapons effectiveness anecdotally or in a narrative/open style of play. I think we won't see any buffs to units like Terminators because they really want players to see Gravis Armor as a effective alternative to Terminator armor - that's just my observation / opinion but I think it holds water.

 

With the new Dex it's obvious Firstborn aren't going anywhere for at least a few more years (yay) but I think it's just as obvious they are working toward both (make that all three) versions of Astartes to have a unique plat style.

[MegaVolt87]

Said it before, Sallies ignoring AP-1 weapons would be great for every type of termi, add to land raiders would be good as well for everyone as a general rule on the data sheets. Lore wise, this captures the spirit of shrugging off small arms fire without making them too OP. 

Edited August 28, 2019 by MegaVolt87

[Dracos]

Fair enough but then how do you adjust Sallies? Not likely that's going to stack for -2 AP.  I think we are just going to have to dig for ways to make the best use of units as are in the new Dex.

 

I'm especially excited to see if some of the top player in ETC and ITC start using Marines and how. We have about 4 months I think before we start seeing what combos are top notch and thats with only a two supplements out at the moment. I imagine there are going to be beta testers like Reece at FLG and others who are going to have some interesting insights

[MegaVolt87]

Fair enough but then how do you adjust Sallies? Not likely that's going to stack for -2 AP.  I think we are just going to have to dig for ways to make the best use of units as are in the new Dex.

 

I'm especially excited to see if some of the top player in ETC and ITC start using Marines and how. We have about 4 months I think before we start seeing what combos are top notch and thats with only a two supplements out at the moment. I imagine there are going to be beta testers like Reece at FLG and others who are going to have some interesting insights

 

Easy, just change the Sallies trait to something like excludes Terminators and land raiders, so then they still get ignore -1 AP weapons on everything, while terminators and land raiders get it as a general rule for those units for everyone else. 

[domsto]

I am not a big Fan of the -1 to wound gor the Terminators and land Raider.

It is way to powerfull.

This will not only effect small Arms, it will also have a huge impact on the Bigger Guns.

Weapons wich are designt to destroy Vehicals are now not effectiv against the Land Raider?

If such a Rule would be included there must be a diffrence between Small Arms and big Gun.

Like the Mars Pattern Rule many FW Leman Russ have.

To be totaly honest, i think the Land Raider is durable enougt.

You need to but many Anti tank guns into it to bring it down, which is i think durable enought

 

For Terminators the solution is pretty simple

Give them the Statline of Agressors vut with a 2+ save

Done

Edited August 28, 2019 by domsto

[Dracos]

Don’t the Eldar have a -1 wound on their vehicles? It’s necessarily OP if done in a proper context. Wait, Eldar ... OP ... never mind ;)

[domsto]

Don’t the Eldar have a -1 wound on their vehicles? It’s necessarily OP if done in a proper context. Wait, Eldar ... OP ... never mind ;)

Nope they don't

At least not on the Codex ones, i am not familiar with their FW Units.

What they have is a Damage redused by 1 on the Transporter.

[Xerxus]

Give terminators a 1+ save.

[Schlitzaf]

Before we do anything else can we give all variants a 4+ IV save?

[crazyterran]

Just bump Termies up a wound or a T. 

[Acebaur]

As we have just gotten a new codex and recently had a lengthy discussion on this topic, I think it is safe to say that GW isn't making any additional changes to SM beyond what we got in the new SM dex any time soon. Let's instead wait and see how the changes they did make affect these units before jumping to conclusions about whether they need more changes.