How will the Psychic Awakening affect the Grey Knights?

[dreadmad]

I'm thinking either the assault or tactical doctrine, but not sure which would ultimately be better. Blood Angels is Assault with+1 attack in the first round of combat...So scratch that possibility for GK, but would could ours be?

I'm hoping Tactical, as the weight of low quality fire power GK puts out would benefit the most from staying in Tac. Doctrine - however since every GK has a melee weapon I feel it's more likely that it would be in the Assault Doctrine.

 

I hope I'm wrong, as only getting your benefit T3 onwards is bad in a game that's often decided in the first 2 turns - but it seems more likely to me.

[Corvus Fortis]

What we won't get is T1 deep strike. That would unbalance the game so much that anyone who plays GK and gets 1st turn will be in a very overpowered position.

 

 

Ah yes, that devastating 1 MW smites and stormbolter fire that will kill several gaunts/scouts/rangers from screening chaff turn 1. So broken. I really wish they will limit GK deepstrike to turn 3 just to be sure no broken stuff slips into the game.

[casb1965]

@ Corvus Fortis - I assume that is an attempt at sarcasm :)

 

It's not only Strike squads with stormbolters that you can drop in, try half a dozen Dreadknights appearing in your deployment zone 1st turn.

[Captain Coolpants]

@ Corvus Fortis - I assume that is an attempt at sarcasm :)

 

It's not only Strike squads with stormbolters that you can drop in, try half a dozen Dreadknights appearing in your deployment zone 1st turn.

well we were able to do this all last edition, and we were still bottom tier.

[casb1965]

 

@ Corvus Fortis - I assume that is an attempt at sarcasm

 

It's not only Strike squads with stormbolters that you can drop in, try half a dozen Dreadknights appearing in your deployment zone 1st turn.

well we were able to do this all last edition, and we were still bottom tier.

 

 

True but last edition didn't have Chapter Master rerools, devastator doctirnes etc. So a GMNDK with a couple of buddies can now cause more of a problem than under 7trh ed.

[Sweetcurse]

Casb, just no man.

[Yossarion]

@ Corvus Fortis - I assume that is an attempt at sarcasm

 

It's not only Strike squads with stormbolters that you can drop in, try half a dozen Dreadknights appearing in your deployment zone 1st turn.

Oh, how scary!!!! 3 GMNDKs and 3 NDKs taking up over 50% of the army       

 

Except it can be screened by chaff, and our guns have very low range. Dreadknights are largely overrated as is, and if they don't start in deepstrike you can expect to pull most of them from just about every army's shooting. If they do deepstrike one of them will have a 3++ and the rest will be pulled from the table as a 4++/5++ will not keep them up.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Yossarion

[Corvus Fortis]

It's not only Strike squads with stormbolters that you can drop in, try half a dozen Dreadknights appearing in your deployment zone 1st turn.

 

 

It doesn't matter how many GMNDKs you will drop intro your opponent's face as long as units like Infiltrators exist. Even before Big FAQ I struggled with most of armies, especially ones that could infiltrate or scoutmove - they always assured that I couldn't get in range of important stuff.

 

Even with combat doctrines our heavy weapons are not scary - we already had psybolt ammunition and psychic onslaught. Most of time it isn't worth it. And I'm not sure if we are getting docrtines at all - that "you are not proper marines" stuff and such. 

 

As for dreadknights - they are probably in top 10 worst units of the edition. They are fragile, they are slow, they are expensive, their ranged damage is lacking. They are ok in melee vs vehicles and mosnters, but any of our characters with hammer probably won't do worse. I don't imagine how they have to change rules to make it work. If he was GMNDK without rerolls and character keyword (i.e. 2+/2+, 4++), one could be considered for his cost. Only for friendly games, of course. I stopped using in competitive games GMNDKs since this spring and doing quite OK. I fielded them once last week, and nothing changed - despite extensive LoS block they went down to tyranid shooting, close combat and psychic very quickly. Even overcosted stormraven brings way more to a list than GMNDK.  

[Justicar Boreq]

If we go with fluff, one Grey knight can fight whole demon horde. I would like to see Grey knights as walking tanks. I have a feeling that GK are dying easily despite high point cost

[superwill]

I know people are pretty doom and gloom about GK at the moment and it's totally fair, but Psychic Awakening honestly has the potentially to really throw GK back into the arena. I've played GK for a long time, alongside 3-4 other armies, and needless to say they haven't been making it into my tournament lists for a little while. But if they get even a fraction of what Chaos just got, they have the potential to be competitive again.

 

A few points reductions alone haven't been enough to save them, but they've brought them to the point where stats-wise they're pretty competitively priced, and are really only terrible because they're lacking in the stratagems and special rules department.

 

Consider what Psychic Awakening gave to Chaos (admittedly they were already pretty decent beforehand). Imagine GK getting even just one of these sets (there are plenty of decent options left out):

ALPHA LEGION:

 - Warlord can snipe characters with all weapons

 - Gate of Infinity / Upon Wings of Fire as a WLT (one use only). Like the Raven Guard one but better.

 - Relic that can lose opponent CPs on a 4+ each time they cast a strat for one turn.

 - Strat to scout move units pre-game.

 - The broken strat that means you pick a unit and it can't be shot unless its the closest unit...

 - Another dumb 1CP strat which makes an opponents vehicle explode on a 3+ and can't be re-rolled...

 - Maybe the dumbest of all, the one which for 1CP turns all your Alpha Legion into Infiltrators (no reserves within 12"...). And you cast it after they've already commited to deploying a unit...

 - Another contender for OP, Upon Wings of Fire (maybe the best BA strat?) is 2CPs for a jump-infantry unit to redeploy. This is 1CP and lets any infantry unit redeploy... Why???

 - Thought auspex scan was great? How about we increase the range to 18", give it to ANY unit (not just infantry) and remove the -1 to hit? Sounds good.

 - Any unit can fall back and shoot for 1CP.

 - All of this on top of their broke-ass flat -1 to hit which got nerfed hard on RG but not here.

 

That set would make GK pretty sweet. That's just one legion, only about half of all the new options, and that's all on top of CSM stuff. But there are plenty of other legions too. I'll skip the daemon weapons, WLT and relics and just mention the strats.

 

NIGHT LORDS:
 - 1CP -1 to hit a unit. Lol. Would already be the best strat in the GK dex, but it could possibly be worst on this list.

 - 2CPs choose someone within 18" and shut off all their auras... invulns, re-rolls, charge modifiers, etc...

 - 1CP Charge after falling back

 - 1CP YOU PICK ONE OF YOUR UNITS AND NON-VEHICLE OPPONENTS CAN'T FALL BACK FROM IT. WHAT?! I just saw 3 riptides get stuck in combat forever because of one loser squad of Warp Talons, who for 19 points are basically significantly cheaper vanguard vets but with a 5++, COMPLETELY DENY ANY OVERWATCH and can't be fallen back from. And they almost can't fail their charge because

 - YOU CAN GIVE A UNIT A 3D6" CHARGE WITH +4". Meaning you need to roll a total of 5 on 3 dice and you make your charge out of deepstrike. In my SM army I have to work my ass off just to get a chaplain nearby (he can't deep-strike and cast litany) and successfully cast my litany on a 3+ just for +2" (and even that is worth it because it's great). These guys just got two different STRATS (ie no dice roll needed) that offer +2", and another which gives you 3d6. WHAT?!

 

Now that's two legions. Other incredible strats include:

 - For 1CP you can take a psychic test you failed and make it pass automatically and it can't be denied... (and can be used on Warp Time, maybe the greatest power in the game)

 - Once you've failed a save, for 1CP you change the result to a 6.

 - After you've rolled your charge range, for 1CP you can change the result of one of the dice to a 6... Meaning you can roll 2 dice, CP one of them if you need to, and if you ever get a 3 or higher you can make your charge.

 - Give termies +1S and fight twice for 2CPs...

 

And honestly, this is just skimming the surface.

 

If GK were to get a suite of stratagems even half as strong as one of those factions, they would start to see play again. Near-unfailable charges, locking units in combat, the ability to get units to -2 or -3 to hit, offensive strats (most I haven't mentioned), defensive strats that play with targetting etc.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that Psychic Awakening has the potential to slingshot GK back on to tables. If we get what some have gotten (Chaos), we will be back. If we don't and the whole thing is a flop, then we'll check back again in 9th.

Edited December 10, 2019 by superwill

[Captain Coolpants]

 

 

 

@ Corvus Fortis - I assume that is an attempt at sarcasm

 

It's not only Strike squads with stormbolters that you can drop in, try half a dozen Dreadknights appearing in your deployment zone 1st turn.

well we were able to do this all last edition, and we were still bottom tier.

True but last edition didn't have Chapter Master rerools, devastator doctirnes etc. So a GMNDK with a couple of buddies can now cause more of a problem than under 7trh ed.

I'd have to disagree. Last edition we had dodgy wound allocation (paladins), I'm pretty sure we did have re-rolls for the unit our characters joined? And re-rolls for banners and such. Devastator doctrines mean nothing to us because our heavy weapons are poo. And back then we could no scatter deepstrike whatever squad we wanted with a character with first to the fray (think 10 paladins) and then whatever other squads we wanted without minimum distance restrictions (although slight chance or mishap if too close) aaaand our cc weapons literally ignored all armour back then, only invulnerable saves could be taken, (so Marines weren't saving like they are now) and they didn't do d3 wounds, it was a psychic test for force, and whatever it was now looses all wounds and is dead... unless its a vehicle or eternal warrior/gargantuan creature, but these units took d3 damage anyway instead of insta gib.

We also had multi casts with arguably better spells (think the vortex of doom, a D weapon perpetual template scattering around the board and nova powers like cleansing flame and all squads having +2 strength for hammerhand, our helberds were all basically autocannons that ignored armour with that activated)

 

Our shooting is better now with double shots. But we're still talking bolters here man.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Captain Coolpants

[Yossarion]

I know people are pretty doom and gloom about GK at the moment and it's totally fair, but Psychic Awakening honestly has the potentially to really throw GK back into the arena. I've played GK for a long time, alongside 3-4 other armies, and needless to say they haven't been making it into my tournament lists for a little while. But if they get even a fraction of what Chaos just got, they have the potential to be competitive again.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that Psychic Awakening has the potential to slingshot GK back on to tables. If we get what some have gotten (Chaos), we will be back. If we don't and the whole thing is a flop, then we'll check back again in 9th.

No one is saying PA won't do wonders for us. What we're saying is we're tired of "gk" players telling us that some points drops and GMNDKs will fix the faction. There's a reason most tournament GK players (all 3 of them) are dropping GMNDKs and gravitating to land raiders of all things. Our shooting is garbage, as for positivity reecius from FLG has stated that nids and GK got the best out of PA, and seeing what nids got I am inclined to believe him. I really hope the preview coming up is mainly us, and not dark angels with a blurb at the end about GK. Really want to look forward to psychic awakening.

 

 

 

 

 

@ Corvus Fortis - I assume that is an attempt at sarcasm

 

It's not only Strike squads with stormbolters that you can drop in, try half a dozen Dreadknights appearing in your deployment zone 1st turn.

well we were able to do this all last edition, and we were still bottom tier.

True but last edition didn't have Chapter Master rerools, devastator doctirnes etc. So a GMNDK with a couple of buddies can now cause more of a problem than under 7trh ed.

I'd have to disagree. Last edition we had dodgy wound allocation (paladins), I'm pretty sure we did have re-rolls for the unit our characters joined? And re-rolls for banners and such. Devastator doctrines mean nothing to us because our heavy weapons are poo. And back then we could no scatter deepstrike whatever squad we wanted with a character with first to the fray (think 10 paladins) and then whatever other squads we wanted without minimum scatter restrictions (although slight chance or mishap if too close) aaaand our cc weapons literally ignored all armour back then, only invulnerable saves could be taken, (so Marines weren't saving like they are now) and they didn't do d3 wounds, it was a psychic test for force, and whatever it was now looses all wounds and is dead... unless its a vehicle or eternal warrior/gargantuan creature, but these units took d3 damage anyway instead of insta gib.

We also had multi casts with arguably better spells (think the vortex of doom, a D weapon perpetual template scattering around the board and nova powers like cleansing flame and all squads having +2 strength for hammerhand, our helberds were all basically autocannons that ignored armour with that activated)

 

Our shooting is better now with double shots. But we're still talking bolters here man.

 

bruh you're thinking of 5th edition when we were actually really good. Last edition was 7th, where we scattered paladins weren't troops, there was no gimmicky wound allocation, our weapons were only AP 3 or the hammer swinging at I1.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Yossarion

[newdigitalGK]

A random thought that might be good for GK's in PA

 

So here’s the idea to replace combat doctrines for GK

Devastator equivalent: Allows units to cast psychic onslaught, replaces smite and can be cast multiple times.

Psychic Onslaught: strength and armor penetration of, heavy bolters, psycannons, heavy psycannons, psilincers, gatling psilincers, incinerators and heavy incinerators are improved by one until the start of your next psychic phase.

 

Tactical: Allows units to cast psybolt ammo, replaces smite and can be cast multiple times.

Psybolt Ammo: The strength and armor penetration of boltguns, storm bolters and hurricane bolters are improved by one until the start of your next psychic phase.

 

Assault: Allows units to cast hammerhand, replaces smite and can be cast multiple times.

Hammerhand: When manifested the unit casting can add 1 to the wound roll for melee attacks until the start of your next psychic phase.

[Ichar]

A random thought that might be good for GK's in PA

 

So here’s the idea to replace combat doctrines for GK

Devastator equivalent: Allows units to cast psychic onslaught, replaces smite and can be cast multiple times.

Psychic Onslaught: strength and armor penetration of, heavy bolters, psycannons, heavy psycannons, psilincers, gatling psilincers, incinerators and heavy incinerators are improved by one until the start of your next psychic phase.

 

Tactical: Allows units to cast psybolt ammo, replaces smite and can be cast multiple times.

Psybolt Ammo: The strength and armor penetration of boltguns, storm bolters and hurricane bolters are improved by one until the start of your next psychic phase.

 

Assault: Allows units to cast hammerhand, replaces smite and can be cast multiple times.

Hammerhand: When manifested the unit casting can add 1 to the wound roll for melee attacks until the start of your next psychic phase.

That is a neat idea. I hope GW is thinking creatively like this. And maybe adding range to the heavy weapons if Psychic Onslaught is successfully cast during the “devastator doctrine” to allow them to actually be used in the first turn (given the 24”/8” range) :) Edited December 11, 2019 by Ichar

[Corvus Fortis]

This won't fix anything, unfortunately. SM get their docrtines for free while getting better guns. And we'll have to give up smite to gain a chance to have boost of our crappy guns... And no hammerhand till turn 3 can hurt pretty much. This won't solve main issue of the codex: we cannot reach our effective range before getting destoyed. We need either get better defence (more than half point into reserves, -1 to-hit/always in cover if more than in 12") better attack (psybolt ammunition as chapter tactics, D2 psycannons, more damaging psychic powers) or more mobility (turhn 1 deepstikes, disembarking from transport after movement, etc.). We can actually hurt if we are in 12" range from key enemy targets. We just can't get there, because die too easy.

[casb1965]

Just looked through CA:2019 and on average we've had an average of between 20 - 25% drop in points cost. That's an extra 400+ pts on a 1750 list to fill, surely that must make them more competitive than before.

 

Ever the optimist CA can only add to the improvement.

[Justicar Boreq]

I have a question about CA2019. Why is it that Brother-Captain Stern is 8pts. cheaper than regular Brother-Captain? Is it just because you can change gear and warlord trait for Brother-Captain? Stern can cast 2 psychic powers despite being cheaper... Edited December 11, 2019 by Justicar Boreq

[Waking Dreamer]

I have a question about CA2019. Why is it that Brother-Captain Stern is 8pts. cheaper than regular Brother-Captain? Is it just because you can change gear and warlord trait for Brother-Captain? Stern can cast 2 psychic powers despite being cheaper...

Yes. Halberd is better than Force Sword for equal points, and BroCap has 24" smite compared to Stern's 12" as well.

[Captain Coolpants]

I have a question about CA2019. Why is it that Brother-Captain Stern is 8pts. cheaper than regular Brother-Captain? Is it just because you can change gear and warlord trait for Brother-Captain? Stern can cast 2 psychic powers despite being cheaper...

reason being, he grants your opponent re-rolls as well with his strands of fate (or whatever its called) rule

[Holier Than Thou]

So it says the full reveal will be Christmas Day, will that be pre-order day as well?

[Ichar]

So it says the full reveal will be Christmas Day, will that be pre-order day as well?

Well Christmas is on a Wednesday and pre-orders usually happen on Saturday, so I would think not. Has there been a pre-order on a day other than Saturday? I haven’t seen one but I am not sure. I can’t wait though!

[Icosiel]

Has anyone looked through the Kill Team Annual? There are a lot of cool Grey Knights Tactics in there, and I'm wondering if any of them will translate to Stratagems in PA.

[Chronos Darkhelmet]

Has anyone looked through the Kill Team Annual? There are a lot of cool Grey Knights Tactics in there, and I'm wondering if any of them will translate to Stratagems in PA.

Haven't looked at that but might be potentially very interesting, could you please summarize here the most relevant and/or the most likely to be adapted to main game? :)

[Corvus Fortis]

Is it just me or GK are the only faction that didn't get their narrative/matched play mission?

[Icosiel]

I don't have the Annual myself, but I am copying Goonhammer's summary of the Grey Knights Tactics here:

 

 

Being one of the factions without a box set, Grey Knights received a number of new Tactics. They’re on the more expensive side but some are reasonably strong, so you’ll want to keep them in mind.

• Leave No Witnesses (1CP) – When a model fights, if there’s only one enemy within 6” you can re-roll failed wound rolls. This is relatively easy to trigger, especially against elite teams, is reasonably priced and has a powerful effect. A
• Mental Fortitude (3 CP) – Add 6” to the range of psybolt for a model. This can only be used once per battle. This is too expensive for what you get, but it’s a unique and powerful effect so there might be games where it wins you the battle. I don’t think it will see a lot of play but you will want to keep it in the back of your mind. D
• Psychic Onslaught (2 CP) –  Give a Psycannon or Psilencer +1 S and an additional point of AP. This turns Psilencers into a pretty monstrous weapon at S5, AP-1, D3 damage and basically infinite shots. That’s an elite model murdering profile, and you’ll be using it often. A
• Psychic Communion (2 CP) – Use before a psychic test. Add +1 to the test for each friendly model in 3” of the caster (including the caster). This is great if you want to try to trigger the improved Psybolt profile or if you’re working around a deny. A
• Rite of Exorcism (2 CP) – Use before a deny. If the deny is successful, deal 1 mortal wound to the caster. It’s a chance for some free extra damage, but very conditional. C
• Ceaseless Vigil (2 CP) – Use at the beginning of the shooting phase. All models in your team get +1 to hit models that can in from reserves. The condition is something you don’t have control over but it effectively cancels out an attempt to deep strike a model into cover. C
• Canticles Of Warding (1 CP) – Ignore mortal wounds on a 5+. These sorts of abilities are very conditional and you already have deny to protect you against Psykers, but if you’re in a situation where it helps then it can be worth the CP. C
• Stillness of Spirit (1 CP) – Add 1 to the commander’s invulnerable saves until the end of the turn. This will give Brother-Captains and Champions a 3++ or Librarians a 4++. B
• Vengeful Strike (2 CP) – When a Brotherhood Champion is taken out of action the get to fight against before being removed. They already have this ability on their datasheet, so they can potentially fight 3 times that turn. B
• The Six Chants of Denial (3 CP) – A librarian can automatically deny a psychic power. The cost is high but there’s no randomness to this. If there’s a critical power that you absolutely must turn off this is your get out of jail free card. C
• Clarity of Vision (1 CP) – Add 1 to hit rolls for a Brother-Captain. Brother-Captains can take a selection of powerful ranged weapons like Psycannons or Psilencers, and if you do this can help you hit on a 2+ or 3+ even at long range and obscured targets. A strong ability to have in games of Commander for turning your Brother-Captain into a murder machine from any hiding spot you choose. B