Chaos Knights - what to look out for?

[Morticon]

Im likely to come up against a scary chaos knight list in the upcoming ITC im playing here in China. 

Anyway got any hints or clues or tips about what their specialities are? Beyond the regular stuff that basic imperial knights offer. 

I dont know the Chaos Knight dex at all. 

Any thoughts welcome! thanks. 

[N1SB]

Hey 大哥, I've actually been running Knights alongside my Nurgle army, plus I'm building towards stuff my tourney champion friend has been advising me.  So my mindset is probably about the lines of the Chaos Knight-using opponents, but I'm not quite WAAC as tourney players are.

 

 

+++ The "Curveball": Daemons w/ Dakka Knights +++

 

 

One of the biggest things that frustrate my opponents is the obvious thing that Chaos Knights bring: dakka for Daemons.

 

The idea is in previous editions, big guns came at a premium for Daemons.  There were limited options, they were cost- or logistically prohibitive (i.e. you have to pay for a Defiler or get Chaos Space Marines Allies just to bring SOME guns).  8th edition happened to make it so much easier, 1st because of how we can just take a Heavy Support or Lord of War Detachment, then cherrypick what we want from the Chaos Space Marines/DG tanks, Renegades & Heretics Index for things like Leman Russes, and now Chaos Knights.

 

The reason is, for almost all 7 previous editions, the go-to when dealing with Daemons was to form gunlines and outshoot them.  Now that we got big guns of our own, that doesn't go as well as it used to, and that really seems to throw my opponents off from the get-go.  For example, I used to draw from the Renegades & Heretics Index for 2 Earthshaker Cannons and a Wyvern...all indirect fire artillery...which completely turns the table on that.  Now I've moved to 2 Chaos Armiger Heverins aka Wardogs, which I find better against most armies.

 

The solution I think is relevant to you, because iirc you're playing Blood Angels...I actually have some problems dealing with certain melee hordes.  If I don't have anything good to shoot at because everything's stuck in melee, those Dakka Knights aren't contributing.  What used to be an advantage for me, close combat, isn't as much anymore since I had to divert points for my big gun-carrying Knights.

 

The telltale sign for you to look at is if you see a guy dedicate about a third or more of his points to Autocannon Wardogs and a Knight with 2 Avenger Gatling Cannons (which is something our Loyalist counterparts can't do).  Those are the popular setups for those who are just seeing Knights as a way to bring good, cheap big guns to complement their Daemons in particular.

 

 

+++ A Specific Setup to watch out for +++

 

 

The above is a general thing, this one's kinda specific, but I think it's a setup that immediately leaps out at Nurgle players.  I haven't tested this yet, but it's the type of thing that, when flipping through the Codex, it definitely catches the eye to someone like me:

 

Tyrant with Conflagration Cannon(s) + Putrid Carapace of Nurgle Relic

 

Basically a Knight with a giant Heaviest Flamer(s) with armour that can hurt people who hit it.  You basically have this Titan that's melting everyone.  You try to outshoot him, he'll outflame you back as long as he's within 18 inches.  You try to charge him with your melee HQs, congrats on eating all that Flamey Overwatch.  So instead you try to throw your horde at it, well, they're eating the Flamey Overwatch, then when they actually hit the Knight with their normal weapons...every time the Knight makes a saving throw, it has a 50% chance of dealing a Mortal Wound BACK at its attacker.

 

This setup is almost designed to counter things like Khorne Berserker armies or perhaps Blood Angel ones.

 

This is the Rock-AND-a-Hard-Place configuration that sticks out to someone like me because of that Relic.  We have something similar with Death Guard, it's called the Suppurating Plate, but some (very insensitive and immature) people in my meta call it the Terminator Armour of Giving AIDS (i.e. like how cutting the wearer will make him bleed on you, and now you have a chance of getting this chronic yet manageable disease).  It is such a popular relic that, for people who play a pure Nurgle Daemon army, we'll actually draw our Daemon Princes from the Death Guard codex JUST for this Relic.

 

That's really irritating on a Daemon Prince, so when I saw I can put it on a Knight, oh boy.  It probably isn't the best, but I imagine facing Khorne Berserkers again or Blood Angel Assault Marines with just Chainswords, and that's like a free giveaway of Mortal Wounds.

 

 

+++

 

 

Just my quick thoughts.

[Morticon]

That's madness. Thanks for letting me know.   I will check the list now and tell you what he has, but wow...that's rough!!! 

[Morticon]

Knight Despoiler: Infernal Household, 2x Avengers

Despoiler - Thermal/Thermal

Despoiler - Reaper Chainsword Thunderstrike, Gauntlet

 

Despoiler - Iconoclast household - reaper chainsword, Thunderstrike  (Warlord)

2x Wardogs - thermal spear, chain cleaver

 

 

No other details other than that, really.  

Can i expect what you said? Regarding the mortal wound blowback? 

[N1SB]

Hrmmm...it looks like no, it's not quite that Nurgle-themed setup I described, thankfully.  He could still just put that Mortal Wound blowback Relic on this list, obviously it'd be on a close combat Despoiler, and it'd still be super irritating, but it'd be at the opportunity cost of other options.  So I'm thinking he's using another setup that he found more effective.

 

And thanks for this intel.  I'm trying to reverse engineer this list, or just this player's thinking process, a bit.

 

It's an all Chaos Knights list.  He's not mixing it with Daemons or anything, so there's a reason he's choosing Chaos over Loyalist, doing/using what Loyalists can't.  It's related to the loadouts (we see some Double Dakka loadouts, so that seems to be true) and then the way he's setting up their Households, and this is probably the insights you're looking for.

 

 

+++ Infernal Household +++

 

 

The Infernal Household thing is you sacrifice a Mortal Wound and roll a D3 to get 1 of 3 buffs for each Knight separately: a melee buff (increase Movement and Charge distance), a ranged buff (increase Strength and Damage of your ranged weapons), or a Toughness buff (always helpful).  There is an option to choose instead of rolling for the buff, but I suspect he won't because of the following.

 

It looks like he's playing the odds.  Like there's a 1 in 3 chance he'll get a melee buff normally...and he just happens to have 1 of his 3 Knights here kitted out for melee.  He's probably hedging his bets, like whatever he rolls, it'll still be useful to this Detachment setup.

 

Just a heads up, these Infernal guys do have a healing Stratagem, Bind the Souls of the Deceased for 2 Command Points, where they heal a Wound on a 4+ for any model they kill in MELEE (happens in the Fight phase, healing up to 6 Wounds max that phase).  (But if this was something he's focusing on...what I'd've done is do more double Avenger Gatling Cannons so that I have the choice of killing more infantry, sacrifice the D3 Mortal Wounds for the ranged buff, to heal back by removing infantry models.  It'll probably come up, but it's almost like he doesn't want to burn CPs for this angle.)

 

Since it looks like he's hedging here, this area isn't where he's doubling down, so it suggests he might be doubling down on...

 

 

+++ Iconoclast Household +++

 

 

The Iconoclast Household thing is it buffs all your melee on the charge, being charged, or Heroic Interventions with an extra attack and an exta -1 AP, (really attractive for Stomping) so it benefits melee Knights...and it happens his Warlord is here with 2 Wardogs like they're his (dis)honour guards.

 

This suggests he's piling on his melee-focused Warlord, loaded out for bear.  My personal preference is to avoid making my Warlord too attractive a target, like as a Chaos player I'd give some Daemon Prince the Relic and have some Herald as Warlord in the back focusing on giving buffs, but he's taking the equally valid alternative, which is to double down.

 

Many possible configurations here for Relic & Warlord Trait, but I'll list 3 samples that my mind goes to:

 

The Objective Securer - The Putrid Carapace of Nurgle (as per earlier) & Infernal Quest (i.e. Objective Secured Trait).  The Mortal Wound blowback Relics is like counter-punching...I want you to swing at me.  My previous post I mentioned I use my Heaviest Flamer to force you to never ignore me...but he could do the same by running onto your Objective, and you have to shift him.  I'm biased for this one because not only am I Nurgle-leaning, but also an Objective-based player.

 

The Mecha Duelist - The Veil of Medrengard (4++ Invuln Save vs. Ranged) & Knight Diabolus (+1 Attack Trait).  The 4++ Invuln is an Iconoclast Household-specific Relic and really goes with this idea of you're making a melee central character, one who can comfortably (by a better save which makes him seem like a less attractive target than the other Knights) until he gets into close combat where he flourishes.  Something like this is more in-line with why someone would choose Iconoclast in the 1st place, like he wants to create this central character.

 

The Tzeentchian Twist/Anti-Smite - Tzeentchian Pyrothrone (becomes Psyker, knows Smite) & Warp Haunted Hull (can Deny twice, special save vs. Mortal Wounds).  It's a Relic & Warlord Trait combo that are designed to work together.  The Relic turns the Knight into a Psyker, then that Relic with that Warlord Trait lets him Deny 2 psychic attacks instead of the normal 1, and he can save against Mortal Wounds on a 5+ (and if he suffers from Warp Perils, he can save with that, too).  This is something that I'd take if I know I'm facing a lot of Psykers, as my greatest threat then are psychic Mortal Wounds.

 

Then he has his 2 Wardogs geared for flexibility rather than melee-focus, so it's like they're there just to support this central character.  You know how he has his other Despoiler melee Knight in the other Detachment instead of here where he'd definitely benefit from a melee focus?  Those are the telltale signs that make me think he's going for just a really super cool guy with his Warlord.

 

This player has a different mindset than I do I think, so I don't know, but studying this, these are possibilities I see.

 

 

+++

 

 

I just want to say this is a really neato list.  I don't know if your tourney rules specify all armies have to come from just 1 Codex, but this all Chaos Knights setup is like he's deliberately avoiding taking a typical list like the Loyal 32 + Knights setup, just to be more fun (or at least unpredictable).  And someone like me, I'd cherrypick the best things from different Codices in this age of Detachments, but he's like "nah...I'm going to just explore every aspect of just 1 Codex."

 

I hope I'm right about his thinking because that'll help you prepare against him.  But the TL;DR boils down to:

 

- Infernal Household of 3 Despoilers, random buffs that'll benefit his mixed setup whichever comes up

- His Warlord is probably where he'll try to build the coolest badass Knight ever, maybe over-invested

 

Just my thoughts, really hard to even guess if these are right, precisely because it looks like he's trying different things.

Edited September 3, 2019 by N1SB

[Morticon]

Dude  - thanks for this.  Really helpful. 

Are the buffs always random? Can he pick and choose? 

[N1SB]

It's a good thing you asked, I re-read it, found I misunderstood/misremembered how it works.  Imma double-check before posting.  Sorry, brb, will edit.

 

+++ ok i'm back +++

 

Having double-checked, I found my mistake, let me just paraphrase what the Infernal Household Ambition is:

 

At the start of your Movement phase, EACH model can get a buff.

 

If you want a model to get the buff, then you got 2 ways to do it.

 

1st, take 1 Mortal Wound, roll a D3, and that model gets a random buff.

 

OR 2nd option, take D3 Mortal Wounds, and you choose which buff that model gets.

 

You don't have to take the buff.  Each model can get one, but it is determined SEPARATELY.  My mistake earlier was thinking they were rolled for the entire Detachment, rather than individually.  I didn't realise this because I hadn't seen people take so many Knights, we usually just take the 1 LoW at most in our meta.

 

The tactical consideration is something like this for that Infernal Detachment of 3 Despoilers.  So the buff is individual, specific to each Knight.  But I think the way we're supposed to use it is maybe like this:

 

Turn 1 - take the D3 Mortal Wounds on the dedicated melee Infernal Knight to select the Move/Advance/Charge buff into close combat immediately.  Let the ranged Knights just roll the random buffs (I think), because they'll benefit from the Toughness or Ranged buffs, they have a 2 of 3 chance of getting something good.

 

Turn 2 onwards - the dedicated melee Infernal Knight will certainly be in combat by now, probably doesn't need to use the buffs anymore, but will then use the healing Stratagem, Bind the Souls of the Defeated, to heal back the D3 Mortal Wounds plus any he lost in the Fight phase.  Continue letting the ranged Knights roll random buffs.

 

+++

 

My mistake was thinking the buff applied Detachment-wide (with everyone taking Mortal Wounds) instead of individual.

Edited September 3, 2019 by N1SB

[Morticon]

Did some reading up too - that WL is DEFS using vow of dominance.  

Will neuter the hell out of my smash cap, sadly. 

- Pact with the Dark Gods will be solid too. 

 

The regain wound thing seems to only be in combat, and only up to 6 wounds...so not too terrible. 

 

Putrid Carapace of Nurgle + Vow of Dom will see a close combat beast of a WL.