FW Custodes finalised rules

[sultansean]

I think the Caladius still looks good. It obviously needed some balancing but it still buts out a bunch of good shots and is super mobile and an excellent screen. They are just not as good at killing Knights now unless you go with the big anti tank weapon option.   

 

Now the Telemon on the other hand. Why did they do that to the Telemon? I honestly thought it might get a little points decrease. Did it ever do well at a tournament? Other than when Geoff ran it at BAO. When he said it was not as good as a Caladius but he didn't own a third caladius...

 

It just seems like it has no good options now. Only five attacks with fists, Expensive short range guns, no ability to fall back and still shoot or charge.   

 

I can't believe that the take away from the Caladius adjustment is that my three Telemons are going on the shelf and I need to buy three Caladius tanks.....  

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Well.

 

Lots has changed and it will take a while for everything to sink in but mostly I'm excited to try the new stuff out. I now need to bug gw about updating the apoc sheets a tiny bit!

 

 

The ares is glorious. It's so hideously good at looking bad it just swings right over to endearing.

[Dulahan]

I really wish they’d have allowed embedding the specialist spears inside squads rather than keeping them as a separate unit.

 

I’m keen to try out the Venetari at some point so any points reduction is welcome.

 

This.  Would make list building a lot more interesting too.

 

And as for Venetari?  I now want some!  So that's a great change.

 

EDIT:

 

Not to mention, I'd LOVE to be able to make a Venatari Shield Captain!

[dice4thedicegod]

Yeah, I am going to kitbash some venatari (don’t like resin)

[Hantheman]

Boy did they kill the Telemon and Caladius.

 

Can't have anything kill a knight but another knight, thems the GW rules. Gotta sell them knights.

[Riot Earp]

Played yesterday with this list against chaos with 2 knights and one armiger. ++ Patrol Detachment (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [70 PL, 1,324pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Shield Captain in Allarus Terminator Armor [8 PL, 124pts]: Castellan Axe

 

+ Troops +

 

Sagittarum Custodians [7 PL, 158pts]

. Sagittarum Custodian: Adrastus Bolt Caliver, Misericordia

. Sagittarum Custodian: Adrastus Bolt Caliver, Misericordia

. Sagittarum Custodian: Adrastus Bolt Caliver

 

+ Elites +

 

Vexillus Praetor [6 PL, 114pts]: Misericordia, Vexilla Magnifica

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Caladius Grav-tank [12 PL, 220pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon

 

Caladius Grav-tank [12 PL, 220pts]: Twin Illiastus Accelerator Cannon, Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon

 

+ Flyer +

 

Orion Assault Dropship [25 PL, 488pts]: 2x Arachnus Heavy Blaze Cannon, 2x Spiculus Heavy Bolt Launcher, 2x Twin Lastrum Bolt Cannon

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [29 PL, 426pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

 

+ HQ +

 

Company Commander [2 PL, 31pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword

 

Tank Commander [12 PL, 172pts]: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter

 

+ Troops +

 

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]

. 9x Guardsman

. Sergeant: Laspistol

 

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]

. 9x Guardsman

. Sergeant: Laspistol

 

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]

. 9x Guardsman

. Sergeant: Laspistol

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Wyverns [6 PL, 103pts]

. Wyvern: Heavy Bolter

 

++ Total: [99 PL, 1,750pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

 

Tank commander has the sundance relic and helped to thin the knights out. Tho he got captured in round 3 from plagebearers. Calladius still helped out to kill the knights. Killed the armiger in round 1. Next round died in round 3 and the last one in round 5. Orion helped out with the blaze cannons. Maybe i will play one calladius with this weapon cause 3plusd3 is most of the time 5 damage max. Accelerator is still viable. Liked that flat damage of 2.

[Biscuittzz]

*They killed the Caladius!*

 

*It's useless now!*

 

No, they've just rebalanced it from being good against absolutely everything to needing the player to make a decision now that if they want anti-tank they need to take the anti-tank gun and if they want anti-infantry they'll take the now nerfed S7 gun. 

[TheFinisher4Ever]

I tried out a bunch of the altered stuff in a game against the new space marine codex.

 

I tried a squad of 3 Agamatus with Adrathic Destructors. The Adrathic Destructors are really amazing at fighting gravis armor but I think they'll still struggle with target selection against most lists. And imo, the las pulsars ate too expensive. I think I still prefer the GW bikes. The hurricane Bolter is still just a phenomenal weapon.

 

I tried the Heavy Blaze Cannon on the Caladius and it was great. If you have lots of repulsors or Leman Russ' in your meta, this guy will do well. Minimum 4 damage feels fantastic. I'm not sure how well it will do against knights though due to the invulns.

 

I tried a squad of pyrathite guardians as well. The idea was to deep strike them but the opponent had a Phobos captain so they walked instead. They didn't do much. They really should have just been an upgrade to the regular squad.

 

Saggitarum are pretty much an auto-include now imo. They are pretty self sufficient so they are perfect for backfield objective camping. The extra range and removal of gets hot from the disintegration beams is also very helpful.

 

The telemon still did well in my game. He's just not a backfield artillery piece anymore. He's gonna have to move up the field. With that being the case, I think taking a fist will be the preferable option.

[Mr. Funktastic]

Thanks for the battle report on the updated units! I know the general opinion on the finalized rules is all doom and gloom but it's refreshing to see something a little more objective and actually playing with these rules on the table. The damage potential for the Arachnus Heavy Blaze Cannon on the Caladius is there but I'm concerned about it only having 2 shots with it, anything with an invulnerable save is going to be a problem but hopefully it's not as bad as people think it is. Your assessment of the Telemon also sounds right, he's going to have to spend turn 1 moving up but he can easily get rerolling 1's from a Shield Captain or from Wisdom of the Ancients. I do agree though, it seems like rocking a single fist and a Storm Cannon might be a viable way to run the Telemon now, deep striking it and forcing your opponent to answer. It's just a shame that Custodes' answer to vehicles is either through melee (and no way to get an easier charge off) or through low number of shots but high STR.

[Gederas]

Looking through the list, I noticed that the Contemptor-Exemplar Dreadnought isn't in there..... Oh no.

 

I wanted to run one of those things :/

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

GW should have realized the Callidus was too good. There was absolutely no reason to nerf the Telemon either.

[swordofmandulis]

Telemon got the nerf because it eats all those shiny new marine vehicles from 72" range and they want people to buy the £50 replusor etc.

 

I'm still going to run 2, fist and arachnus on both, I'm going to claim the centre of the table and dare my opponent got get close enough to be torn a part by my terminators.

[sultansean]

Telemon got the nerf because it eats all those shiny new marine vehicles from 72" range and they want people to buy the £50 replusor etc.

 

I'm still going to run 2, fist and arachnus on both, I'm going to claim the centre of the table and dare my opponent got get close enough to be torn a part by my terminators.

 

I hope that works, because I love the Telemon, but I don't really see how what are in effect 2 Krak missile shots from a 280 point model are going to force anyone to come close to you.   

 

I just really felt that the Custodes need some long range shooting to be viable in a lot of matchups. So opponents don't just Kite you and never get close enough for combat.  Where before the choices were obviously the Caladius but the Telemon was ok, to now its just the Caladius. Which is sad. 

[swordofmandulis]

 

 

Telemon got the nerf because it eats all those shiny new marine vehicles from 72" range and they want people to buy the £50 replusor etc.

 

I'm still going to run 2, fist and arachnus on both, I'm going to claim the centre of the table and dare my opponent got get close enough to be torn a part by my terminators.

I hope that works, because I love the Telemon, but I don't really see how what are in effect 2 Krak missile shots from a 280 point model are going to force anyone to come close to you.

 

I just really felt that the Custodes need some long range shooting to be viable in a lot of matchups. So opponents don't just Kite you and never get close enough for combat. Where before the choices were obviously the Caladius but the Telemon was ok, to now its just the Caladius. Which is sad.

Faced marines last night and got annihilated, having no range on the tels was really bad and 1 gun isn't enough shooting, half damage strat renders the caladius utter junk, and we don't have enough to change targets really, not unless you stuck to your double gun telemon x2. Well drawing board is back up lol

[Kenzaburo]

Well, I don't own a lot of FW stuff currently, actually just an Achillus dread, which still seems fine. And I'm quite happy the Sagittarum are troops now, because I really wanted some but could never incorporate them in a list. Now they'll fill one troop slot, while the other two still go to the standard 2 spears, 1 sword&board guardians.

 

That the telemon got nerfed on range is a bit problematic though, since the lack of any significant long range firepower in the army seemed glaringly obvious to me. To remove those options leaves me puzzled. Because as you say: kiting is a thing, and it's annoying as hell. 

[Mr. Funktastic]

Have anyone tried out Pyrithite Spears yet? They seem to have some potential since they're Troops now and we need all the anti-armor we can get. Right now I'm thinking about a Battalion with 1x3 Guardians to take and hold midfield, 1x3 Sagittarum to hold the backfield objective, and 1x3 Pyrithite Guard that will go inside a Coronus with 3 Power Gauntlet + Firepike Aquilons to act as tank busters and screen melters.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

My issue with melta spears is the entire squad has to take them and it’s not like Custodes are Primaris. The increase in points for Aquilon Terminators is yet another kick in the junk... every point counts when you play Custodes. Compare them to SM where you have a lot more flexibility - it’s a completely different world.

[MeatGrinder]

Have anyone tried out Pyrithite Spears yet? They seem to have some potential since they're Troops now and we need all the anti-armor we can get. Right now I'm thinking about a Battalion with 1x3 Guardians to take and hold midfield, 1x3 Sagittarum to hold the backfield objective, and 1x3 Pyrithite Guard that will go inside a Coronus with 3 Power Gauntlet + Firepike Aquilons to act as tank busters and screen melters.

Looking at 1x3 sword and board plus 2x3 sagg to hold the backfield. Im already running a lot of aggressive units so having something to hold the backfield with is a godsend.

[duz_]

Found this a good summary

 

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2019/09/03/adeptus-custodes-forgeworld-beta-rules-changes/

[Mr. Funktastic]

 

Have anyone tried out Pyrithite Spears yet? They seem to have some potential since they're Troops now and we need all the anti-armor we can get. Right now I'm thinking about a Battalion with 1x3 Guardians to take and hold midfield, 1x3 Sagittarum to hold the backfield objective, and 1x3 Pyrithite Guard that will go inside a Coronus with 3 Power Gauntlet + Firepike Aquilons to act as tank busters and screen melters.

Looking at 1x3 sword and board plus 2x3 sagg to hold the backfield. Im already running a lot of aggressive units so having something to hold the backfield with is a godsend.

 

 

My only issue with 2x3 Sagittarum from a real life standpoint is I'd have to get 2 sets of Sagittarum upgrade bits and an extra Custodian Guard body to make it happen. At least with having a 1x3 squad of Pyrithite Guard instead I can take the 2 extra Custodian Guard models and convert an existing Guardian Spear model to make them so I'd only have to buy one of each upgrade bits and one box of Custodian Guard. On paper though, 2x3 units of Sagittarum isn't a bad idea at all.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m not buying any more Custodes units from Forge World. To me it’s just not worth it now.

[dice4thedicegod]

I’m converting some venatari and Sagittarum. Don’t like resin and will use the new rules as an excuse to get creative.

[Dallas Drake]

I’m not buying any more Custodes units from Forge World. To me it’s just not worth it now.

Nah me neither. The codex is now in dire need of an update, plus there are more FW units than codex unit’s now which is unprecedented for an army I believe?

 

Also, honestly I’m not sold on Sagittarum anyway, I think there’s a little bit of an overreaction to how good they are as an option. I’ll take my Guard with spears and swords I think and just wait for GW to balance things out.

[superwill]

I'm also not particularly sold on the Sagittarum, or on Custodes at all anymore sadly. I went undefeated at an 80-person ITC tournament earlier this year with them, and haven't lost a match with them in my last 20ish games at my club. So I have no problem accepting they needed a nerf, but after a bit of time processing and trying to think creatively (I realise it hasn't been that long) I honestly think that the builds which were competitive (not quite top-tier globally for some reason) are no longer viable. The telemon's indestructibility has become meaningless in a world where they won't be in range of anything. The strength nerf and points nerf were good calls, but if they can't reach their target they're just an expensive objective camper. Caladius' for me were always just the bait, with the hope that they would take long enough to die that I would reduce people to a size that my telemons can clean up. With their reduced firepower and their telemon buddies gone, they're just not gonna work.

 

To me, the greatest strength of the Custodes was their amazing bubbles. What other armies can have units in auras of re-rolling hits and wounds and -1 to hit for so few points and as untargetable characters? It was the ability to take 300ish points of auras to give your remaining 1700 points an amazing ROI that made them amazing. Even if the Caladius' were still viable, the removal of telemons means that ROI of the auras is savagely reduced.

 

Perhaps bikes can return, but even they will struggle to keep up with some of the new options out there to other armies. And even bikes, possibly our only remaining option for something that can actually kill things, are not really able to be relied upon. I was playing around with the idea of switching my full gunline (3 calis and 3 teles) for a maxed bike squad and a couple of maxed venatari squads, but a little bit of math says that even if you can get the bikes up the field and charging something big, the results are not impressive. One smash captain yields a similar result, is easier to get into combat, and costs about 700 points less... Plus they're really not that hard to kill.

 

By taking away our units that actually kill stuff, you almost need to be allying in something like Knights / SM / Guard etc. to actually have units that can hurt the enemy effectively. Running 3 Ares is the only other idea I can come up with, and even that's not hugely impressive damage output, and would also leave you very open to a tabling now that we got "blessed" with having them as flyers rather than LOW.

 

The new Custodes troops options - I don't get the point. What are they there for? For CPs? You could get 10CPs with two battalions of Admech and still have 350! points leftover compared to a minimum cost (and not particularly effective) 5CPs custodes battalion... Maayyybbbbeeee if you only wanted 1 unit from a HS/Elite/FA slot (why?) and wanted exactly 2 HQs, maybe then it would be worth throwing in 3 troops units. Outside of that, it seems the only reason would be for fluff/love of the models (which is great, but not really what we're talking about, right?)

 

 

I can't even see them working as allies. We've got no big-toys to offer, and our CP battery would be a joke. Sadly, I think they'll be going on the shelf :(  I don't mean to add to the doomsaying, but I am trying to provide as honest an assessment as I can in my own experience.

[swordofmandulis]

Superwill, I'd say that's a reasonably fair assessment, it really comes down to wanting to be a purist and play mono faction, there were a couple of ways you could field Custodes as mono faction and be moderately competitve, ITC you had the Trock footstodes, unfortunately this only really works in ITC but its still about the same as it was although the aquilon points bump will hurt when you have 11 of them. You have the barebones batallion + 3 heavies in whichever combo you preferred, this to me is now dead, completely appreciate the Caladius needed 'fixing' but with the double nerf this wont be viable, not only the lack of range but it's totally countered by marines now, if they are dreadnought heavy you'll be lucky to even kill a redemptor with the half damage strat, the other potentials were as you said going all in on the big boys and running either a single spearhead with an aquilon bomb to support or just as many Caladius and telemon as possible, now I don't advocate this kind of list really because it's clearly abusing the most powerful unit, but I guess that's what 40k has been reduced to, especially when you have an extremely limited codex and an army type that is extremely hard to make work olin 8th edition (hyper elite). I think what a lot of people fail to realise is that when you only have 12-18 models on the table every one of them needs to be great and be efficient, unfortunately custodian guard don't really do that because they have very little ranged threat, they are very expensive but those points only come back if and when you can get them into combat and we all know how strong combat is vs shooting don't we, this I believe has lead to the cries of telemon OP because what it did was give us something that can threaten everything from range, as mentioned above we all knew the caladius had to have some kind of change, I personally would have preferred a points increase vs the nerf but even with it it don't think it's a bad unit now, its just not anti tank any more, and without the tel that leaves exactly.. Nothing. So we back to trying to get aquilon in to punch, is it cool to do that, yes it is, nothing better than smashing someone's knight to pieces in glorious combat, but is it competitve, no it surely isn't. Will I keep playing my boys down the club, yes I will because they are still going to hold up in that environment, but competitively they really won't.