Unit of the Week: Eliminator Squad

[Jolemai]

Welcome to part two of the Blood Angels Unit of the Week Series!

Following the release of the 8^th edition Codex, there is no better time to discuss all the units we have access to. Each week a different unit will appear, with the idea being that we discuss how best to use that model on the battlefield. Where part one will focus on the unique BA units and part two will focus on BA units that are new to this edition of the Codex, part three will discuss how to get the best use the generic units from the past that are still with us (and that many of us have in our armies still).

Note, this isn't to lament any nerfs, etc, from previous editions; the rules are as they are so try to unlock its potential for those who wish to use them all the same. Similarly, this thread is only for using the option being discussed; it matters not if you feel something is a better choice as such comments aren't constructive to the topic and shall be removed.

Without further ado, here's this week's entry:

Eliminator Squad

Eliminator Squad, Majkhel

What are you thoughts here folks? How best would you use an Eliminator Squad?

• To compliment a list, or to build a list around? Will the beta rules affect your list(s)?
• Will you be running multiple units?
• Footslog or transport?
• What weapon choices are you using?
• How are you making use of Covering Fire, Concealed Positions, and Guided Aim?
• Are you buffing this unit? If so, how?
• Stratagems of note?

Over to you.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Jolemai

[Jolemai]

Should you want your model on display here (or on another thread from the series), then submit a photo here please.

[dice4thedicegod]

I’m thinking a sarge with instigator carbine and then two las fusils sounds pretty good. Waiting to see when the kit is released.

[Panzer]

Before the addition of the Las-fusils, the sergeant buff and the S5 snipers they served well as incredibly durable infiltrating unit. A 1+ save in cover is no joke and annoyed quite a few of my opponents late game because they couldn't get to my characters without getting rid of my Eliminators first despite them having done little to none damage the whole game.

 

Now that we got those above mentioned options I think they are offensively a more than decent option as well. With S5 they can finally threaten even T4 characters well enough and the Las-fusils work well for our anti-tank needs in a pure Primaris army.

 

About the Sergeant buff keep the following in mind. It's worth it to use the buff instead of shooting if:

• nothing else is buffing the unit (like a Captain aura or Lieutenant aura for example)
• you still have 2 models to buff

As soon as you have another buff applying or only one model left (and you for some reason didn't take out the Sergeant first) you are better off just shooting with him as well.

 

 

So this means a few things regarding list building. If you plan to keep them close to your HQs or to move your HQs to where you'd deploy your Eliminators then you probably should give the Sergeant a Sniper rifle or Las-fusil as well. If you want them to operate independently somewhere on the board you better give him the Carbine to save points and to have a handy after-Overwatch move. Though if you want to use that move make sure to not place them somewhere on top of ruins where the only direction you can move is towards the charging unit. ^^

 

I'd recommend taking at least 2x3. Just three alone won't achieve much (similarly to Suppressors) and they really aren't that expensive fortunately. Put them on some objectives in cover and harass either vehicle/monster or characters. Too bad we can't take them in units of 6 or else the Sergeant buff would really put in some work.

Edited September 3, 2019 by sfPanzer

[The Unseen]

They make great backfield objective holders while also filling out brigade slots very well, especially in a list mostly focussed around infantry

[Karhedron]

The ability to fall back after Overwatching really gives them some utility as a screening unit. Whilst Las Fusils are interesting, I think that mixed armies have better anti-tank options available so I would be inclined to stick with the regular sniper variant in most cases I think.

 

This keeps them cheap and allows them to harass enemy characters and screen other units from charges (particularly against Daemon Bombs, GSC and Jump Orks). I agree that you probably want a couple of units to get the mileage out of them and/or combined them with other units that disrupt enemy Deep strike and charges (Infiltrators, Repulsors, Impulsors etc).

 

Slightly OT but do we have a release date for Eliminators yet?

Edited September 3, 2019 by Karhedron

[dread05]

Slightly OT but do we have a release date for Eliminators yet?

 

Not really. They're expected to be released with the next couple of supplaments. Eliminators are actually the 1st primaris kit I'm waiting to pre-order.

[BluejayJunior]

I think having 2x3 units would be helpful. I've only used them in 2 games so far, but for me they haven't really done much.

1st game they were alive the whole time, but didn't really kill anything. (Although this was when their rifles were still S4).

2nd game (this past Saturday) I went second and my opponent's Death Guard killed them first turn.

I haven't been lucky enough to see what they can accomplish yet. But on paper, they seem really good. 

[One Two Wolf]

So when they pull the after-overwatch move, is that before or after the charging unit moves? If its before then moving forward could be used to prevent pile ins or shorten a units' progress up the board, but after would leave the chargers all out in the middle of nowhere.

 

Great models and I can't wait to buy two or even three squads.

[Panzer]

So when they pull the after-overwatch move, is that before or after the charging unit moves? If its before then moving forward could be used to prevent pile ins or shorten a units' progress up the board, but after would leave the chargers all out in the middle of nowhere.

 

Great models and I can't wait to buy two or even three squads.

 

Before the charging unit moves obviously. Otherwise it would be way too broken and basically ensure them never ending up in melee unless they get surrounded.

And yes you can use it to prevent pile-ins into other units etc.

[Lemondish]

The charging unit can't really move often in this case for some of the biggest first turn mobility tools like da jump and DMC.

 

You fire overwatch after the charge is declared, then you move. They then need to make the much longer charge which could often be impossible if you're declaring the charge outside 6".

 

And is definitely impossible on the deep strike for units that can't roll 3d6.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Lemondish

[Panzer]

The charging unit can't really move often in this case for some of the biggest first turn mobility tools like da jump and DMC.

 

You fire overwatch after the charge is declared, then you move. They then need to make the much longer charge which could often be impossible if you're declaring the charge outside 6".

 

And is definitely impossible on the deep strike for units that can't roll 3d6.

If the opponent tries to make long range charges without considering the after-OW move it's his own fault to be fair. Just get closer than you usually would and everything is fine. Also consider terrain. Most of the time you want Eliminators in cover on an elevated position, which is usually some ruins. Just because they can move 6" it doesn't necessarily mean the charge distace will increase by 6". More likely it only increases by like 3" more often than not.

 

True about the deep strike thing but imo that's perfectly fine and probably the best reason to take the Carbine in the first place.

[Lemondish]

 

The charging unit can't really move often in this case for some of the biggest first turn mobility tools like da jump and DMC.

 

You fire overwatch after the charge is declared, then you move. They then need to make the much longer charge which could often be impossible if you're declaring the charge outside 6".

 

And is definitely impossible on the deep strike for units that can't roll 3d6.

If the opponent tries to make long range charges without considering the after-OW move it's his own fault to be fair. Just get closer than you usually would and everything is fine. Also consider terrain. Most of the time you want Eliminators in cover on an elevated position, which is usually some ruins. Just because they can move 6" it doesn't necessarily mean the charge distace will increase by 6". More likely it only increases by like 3" more often than not.

 

True about the deep strike thing but imo that's perfectly fine and probably the best reason to take the Carbine in the first place.

 

 

I definitely forgot about tops of buildings - good point, but if they can properly block access to that roof then nothing says they can't just stay put if the opponent can't fit anyway :D

[Karhedron]

So here is the important question. I currently normally run a Dev squad with 3 or 4 Lascannons for basic anti-tank work. Is it worth replacing them with 2 squads of Eliminators, each with 2 Las Fusils and a Carbine Serg?

 

Similar levels of AT firepower. Slighter better durability (although more vulnerable to multi-damage weapons) and the option to screen and then fall back and deploy more flexibly. Points cost looks comparable as 2 squads weigh in at 168 points. Looks mighty tempting.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Karhedron

[Neuralshock]

I'd say sub t8 you're doing an average more damage than 3-4 lascannons. Reasons being you give both units +1 to hit and wound to the fusils so you'll have a reliable way to put at least 9 damage onto something, as well as ensuring you'll be in range to strike.

[Majkhel]

I'm a little confused with the current points values - BS shows me 36pts per las-fusil-armed Eliminator and 26pts for the Instigator Bolt Rifle sergeant. That would make 98pts per squads in this configuration. Unless BA eliminators are cheaper for the same reason we have cheaper THs on characters for a moment.

A 4xLascanon dev squad is 170pts with cherub. But it is obviously a more juicy target for the opponent.

I would rather compare 2 squads of las-fusil Eliminators with 2 squads of 2xLascanon devastators. IMO, there is no easy way to say which one is better, as they do things a little bit differently. That being said, in such setup, Eliminators give some additional options: character screening, potentially hindering charges, better deployment options, better survivability against typical anti-marine weapons. And they are cheaper.

Devs on the other hand are more likely to benefit from aura support and are able to take more losses before their firepower decreases. Longer range too. But their cost is greater and they easily swell in both cost and threat priority in opponent's eyes.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Majkhel

[Karhedron]

I'm a little confused with the current points values - BS shows me 36pts per las-fusil-armed Eliminator and 26pts for the Instigator Bolt Rifle sergeant.

I think those points may be a bit off but I don't have the new codex in front of me to confirm. From memory, I think it is 33 points with a Fusil and just 18 points for the Serg.

[Majkhel]

Confirming according to codex:SM:

18pts per model (same as in Shadowspear, so no change here)

15pts per las fusil

5pts per Instigator BC

3pts per camo cloak

26+36+36=98

Edited September 5, 2019 by Majkhel

[Lemondish]

So here is the important question. I currently normally run a Dev squad with 3 or 4 Lascannons for basic anti-tank work. Is it worth replacing them with 2 squads of Eliminators, each with 2 Las Fusils and a Carbine Serg?

 

Similar levels of AT firepower. Slighter better durability (although more vulnerable to multi-damage weapons) and the option to screen and then fall back and deploy more flexibly. Points cost looks comparable as 2 squads weigh in at 168 points. Looks mighty tempting.

Aren't they equally as durable against multi-damage weapons? A single overcharge plasma shot will kill one lascannon marine just as quickly as it would one Eliminator, if we ignore the other benefits Eliminators get in cover.

 

And one less lascannon is kind of the same as one less Las fusil, so you're reducing effectiveness at the same rate as you take casualties generally regardless of damage.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that in the presence of any aura you're mostly better off just firing the sarges gun. If you want them as anti tank in the same role as your Devastator squad, then it might be better to equip all 3 and stick them near a captain, chapter master, or lieutenant.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Lemondish

[Panzer]

 

So here is the important question. I currently normally run a Dev squad with 3 or 4 Lascannons for basic anti-tank work. Is it worth replacing them with 2 squads of Eliminators, each with 2 Las Fusils and a Carbine Serg?

 

Similar levels of AT firepower. Slighter better durability (although more vulnerable to multi-damage weapons) and the option to screen and then fall back and deploy more flexibly. Points cost looks comparable as 2 squads weigh in at 168 points. Looks mighty tempting.

Aren't they equally as durable against multi-damage weapons? A single overcharge plasma shot will kill one lascannon marine just as quickly as it would one Eliminator, if we ignore the other benefits Eliminators get in cover.

 

And one less lascannon is kind of the same as one less Las fusil, so you're reducing effectiveness at the same rate as you take casualties generally regardless of damage.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that in the presence of any aura you're mostly better off just firing the sarges gun. If you want them as anti tank in the same role as your Devastator squad, then it might be better to equip all 3 and stick them near a captain, chapter master, or lieutenant.

 

 

It kills both models just as quickly, however you pay for the additional wound of the Eliminators with points so the opponent kills more points by killing a single model. Plus Devastators are usually played with a bunch of ablative wounds that don't carry Lascannons.

 

However the camo cloaks are not to be ignored. In cover Eliminators have a 1+ save instead of just a 2+ save so against most multi-damage weapons they still have at least a 4+ save or better (against Autocannons still a 2+ even).

 

I agree on the Sergeant equip though.

[Lemondish]

Well in both cases and for both units the Sarge could serve as ablative wounds to avoid immediate reduction in capability, no? Furthermore, adding additional Devastators increases the point spread (at 13ppm) between the two units, thus muddying the direct comparison achieved by their near identical points costs.

 

I fail to really see the practical importance of worrying about giving up points on wounds against 2 damage weapons if the models cost mostly the same, die against the weapon mostly the same, and their output is reduced at the same rate. I am clearly missing something here because to me it makes zero difference against two damage weapons - you lose mostly the same points in models and the same offensive power is reduced.

 

One lascannon 1w 3+ marine is 2 points more expensive than one Las fusil 2w, camo-cloak 3+ marine after all.

[Panzer]

Well in both cases and for both units the Sarge could serve as ablative wounds to avoid immediate reduction in capability, no?

 

So you want to reduce the units damage output right from the beginning just so it doesn't get reduced if you take casualties? That makes not much sense lol

 

About the ablative wounds, it's also a psychological factor. Your opponent doesn't really want to 'waste' shots on removing Bolter Marines in a Devastator squads. Having to 'waste' 5 successful hits, wounds and failed saves on something that gives you no immediate advantage instead of shooting at something else is a huge mental blocker for many. In comparison Eliminators might be a bit harder to remove for your opponent, but if he kills something it has an immediate effect on the units damage output and thus your opponents units survivability.

[Lemondish]

 

Well in both cases and for both units the Sarge could serve as ablative wounds to avoid immediate reduction in capability, no?

 

So you want to reduce the units damage output right from the beginning just so it doesn't get reduced if you take casualties? That makes not much sense lol

 

About the ablative wounds, it's also a psychological factor. Your opponent doesn't really want to 'waste' shots on removing Bolter Marines in a Devastator squads. Having to 'waste' 5 successful hits, wounds and failed saves on something that gives you no immediate advantage instead of shooting at something else is a huge mental blocker for many. In comparison Eliminators might be a bit harder to remove for your opponent, but if he kills something it has an immediate effect on the units damage output and thus your opponents units survivability.

 

 

I don't think you really addressed the questions I had - my mistake for not making it clearer and jumbling it up with a bunch of other nonsense. 

 

Why is there a practical concern about giving up points to a 2 damage weapon on a 2 wound model compared to the 1 wound option if the points cost of each model are nearly identical and they'd both die to that weapon? I'm trying to understand the argument that Devastators at 2 points more expensive per model are somehow more resilient to 2 damage weapons (outside the idea of ablative wounds, which skews the comparison points wise here). Is it entirely because of the ablative wounds, or is there something else I'm not seeing? 

 

But just to be clear, you are going to lose models when you take casualties - in both the Devastator and Eliminators case it seems smarter to kill the guy carrying a weapon that isn't meeting the unit's main goal - AT. That means the sarge bites the dust first. 

[Panzer]

 

 

Well in both cases and for both units the Sarge could serve as ablative wounds to avoid immediate reduction in capability, no?

 

So you want to reduce the units damage output right from the beginning just so it doesn't get reduced if you take casualties? That makes not much sense lol

 

About the ablative wounds, it's also a psychological factor. Your opponent doesn't really want to 'waste' shots on removing Bolter Marines in a Devastator squads. Having to 'waste' 5 successful hits, wounds and failed saves on something that gives you no immediate advantage instead of shooting at something else is a huge mental blocker for many. In comparison Eliminators might be a bit harder to remove for your opponent, but if he kills something it has an immediate effect on the units damage output and thus your opponents units survivability.

 

 

I don't think you really addressed the questions I had - my mistake for not making it clearer and jumbling it up with a bunch of other nonsense. 

 

Why is there a practical concern about giving up points to a 2 damage weapon on a 2 wound model compared to the 1 wound option if the points cost of each model are nearly identical and they'd both die to that weapon? I'm trying to understand the argument that Devastators at 2 points more expensive per model are somehow more resilient to 2 damage weapons (outside the idea of ablative wounds, which skews the comparison points wise here). Is it entirely because of the ablative wounds, or is there something else I'm not seeing? 

 

But just to be clear, you are going to lose models when you take casualties - in both the Devastator and Eliminators case it seems smarter to kill the guy carrying a weapon that isn't meeting the unit's main goal - AT. That means the sarge bites the dust first. 

 

 

Nah you've been clear. I just skipped that part because I didn't have any arguments against it. I didn't check whether they cost the same amount of points or not and just assumed they cost more as it's the case with Tacticals and Intercessors.

 

You are right about the Sergeant, IF he actually doesn't carry a proper weapon. However in a scenario where they are in a position to receive other buffs like a Captain aura or whatever it wouldn't be optimal not giving him a proper weapon as well.

[Karhedron]

Confirming according to codex:SM:

18pts per model (same as in Shadowspear, so no change here)

15pts per las fusil

5pts per Instigator BC

3pts per camo cloak

26+36+36=98

I was forgetting the camo cloaks. Sorry.