Unit of the Week: Eliminator Squad

[Majkhel]

Lemondish, points are not identical, but are comparable. I've already said that above.

You cannot compare a fully kitted dev squad to a fully kitted eliminators squad, because their points are nowhere near and their firepower (before any losses) is nowhere near - Devastators are almost twice the points but also have almost 50% more firepower, at longer range, ability to fire additional shot and to increase accuracy without decrease in said firepower. 

It is far better to compare them with similar point values and that means less lascanons on the devs (2x lascanon devs are 120pts, 3x lascanon devs are 145pts). We can see then that their firepower is similar, but devs also get those additional ablative wounds (apart from the sergeant). For a greater cost in points, but that does increase their survivability in certain situations. Even more so if you take into consideration that they are more likely to be affected by for example a Standard of Sacrifice.

 

Edit: I'm still thinking if las fusil aren't a kind of a trap. I don't want my AT guns outside of aura support and preferably also SoS to maximize their efficiency. That means keeping them as safe as possible and possibly closer to the rear, which in turn can hamper their not that long range. As soon as they lose the sergeant, their (las fusil's) firepower decreases. 

I see Eliminators as having abilities to be an independent unit. Things like forward deployment, great save in cover, ability to thwart charges - all that seems like it's better off with the sniper rifles.

Edited September 6, 2019 by Majkhel

[Lemondish]

Lemondish, points are not identical, but are comparable. I've already said that above.

You cannot compare a fully kitted dev squad to a fully kitted eliminators squad, because their points are nowhere near and their firepower (before any losses) is nowhere near - Devastators are almost twice the points but also have almost 50% more firepower, at longer range, ability to fire additional shot and to increase accuracy without decrease in said firepower. 

It is far better to compare them with similar point values and that means less lascanons on the devs (2x lascanon devs are 120pts, 3x lascanon devs are 145pts). We can see then that their firepower is similar, but devs also get those additional ablative wounds (apart from the sergeant). For a greater cost in points, but that does increase their survivability in certain situations. Even more so if you take into consideration that they are more likely to be affected by for example a Standard of Sacrifice.

 

Edit: I'm still thinking if las fusil aren't a kind of a trap. I don't want my AT guns outside of aura support and preferably also SoS to maximize their efficiency. That means keeping them as safe as possible and possibly closer to the rear, which in turn can hamper their not that long range. As soon as they lose the sergeant, their (las fusil's) firepower decreases. 

I see Eliminators as having abilities to be an independent unit. Things like forward deployment, great save in cover, ability to thwart charges - all that seems like it's better off with the sniper rifles.

 

Sure you can - if the breakdown is almost twice the cost, and the damage difference was 50%, then you're at an easy breakpoint to just double the units you use for the comparison to achieve the same job. That's what makes it easy to compare them - their points, output, and role all line up in that way.

 

In any case, my point was meant to only be related to the question about Eliminators being less durable against 2 damage weaponry - it very much not to be the case. 

[Majkhel]

In any case, my point was meant to only be related to the question about Eliminators being less durable against 2 damage weaponry - it very much not to be the case.

Yes and no ;)

In a vacuum, you are right because Eliminators have superior save. In practice however they are much more likely to be targeted by multi-damage weapons in the first place than the devastators. So this in a way gives the latter a kind-of protection.

 

Of course this in itself may not be a bad thing - any multi-damage weapons directed at Eliminators (the most resiliant Primaris infantry atm) are not directed at other multi-wound units in the army.

 

I'm really happy we are having this discussion by the way:)

Edited September 6, 2019 by Majkhel

[keeblerartillery]

I am too! My army is severely lacking ranged AT and I have been debating devs or contemptor Mortis dreads for awhile. This discussion is helping a lot

[Xerxus]

If your opponent does not target lascannon devastators with a weapon simply because it is 2D, they are most often not making an optimal decision. There are few multi-wound targets with a higher absolute return on the invested firepower. It is generally more reasonable to assume that a competitive opponent is making optimal decisions, unless said decision is especially counter-intuitive or requires obscure knowledge.

[Neuralshock]

In the context of the eliminators as an AT option, I think running two squads with a carbine sarge will bring multiple factors to the table. You have a scout deploying 6 wound unit that gets a 1+ save in cover on a 40mm base, (I think??). You can have them work in isolation or couple them up with supporting auras and psychic powers. if you're worried about multi-damage shooting, you can utilize the sergeant's ability to nullify moving and shooting heavy weapons to hide them out of LOS first turn. With the carbine rules you also have a true light infantry/skirmisher unit to prevent/minimize charges. Should they be your sole AT option? big no. In concert with other ranged AT (I'm a personal believer in 8-10 lascannons as the golden ratio) Then can provide either the primer or the finishing touch on whatever your're trying to remove off the board.

 

As for sniper rifles, weight of fire with rerolls is the key to ensure your opponent is misted into a thick red paste.

 

That being said, I have no practical experience with any of the models

[Lemondish]

If your opponent does not target lascannon devastators with a weapon simply because it is 2D, they are most often not making an optimal decision. There are few multi-wound targets with a higher absolute return on the invested firepower. It is generally more reasonable to assume that a competitive opponent is making optimal decisions, unless said decision is especially counter-intuitive or requires obscure knowledge.

 

Exactly this. 

 

After all, many multi-damage weapons carry a higher strength value. For example, it's still worth overcharging plasma even though you only need 1 damage to kill classic flavour marines because the extra strength you gain helps ensure the kill. 

 

But this is all based on the argument that simply having 2 wounds makes them somehow less resilient against multi-damage weapons than the other option, a position I contend does not really exist. If the points are similar and the output is reduced at a similar rate for every unsaved wound against these weapons, then they seem to be pretty close to as resilient. 

 

Though there's one factor I didn't consider - range. There's truly nothing more resilient than being out of range

 

For what it's worth, I would probably try and kill both units with weight of dice if possible.

 

I also don't feel as if the Carbine is absolutely positively necessary if you want to castle up with these guys. Las fusils near the relic banner in cover and with access to rerolls would be extremely resilient hard to kill targets that don't need the sarge buff to maximize their damage. But then you're giving up a bit of their utility with the scout deploy. Decisions decisions...

 

Rejoice in any case - the unit will be up for pre-order next week!

Edited September 9, 2019 by Lemondish

[Panzer]

All I'm hearing is that pure Primaris players have something to use in place of Lascannon Devs now. :P

[Majkhel]

Does the sergeant's buff counts towards 6's for the Executioner round MWs ability?

The rule says:

"If you make a wound roll od 6+ for this weapon, it inflicts 1 mortal wound in addition to it's normal damage"

[Emissary]

Does the sergeant's buff counts towards 6's for the Executioner round MWs ability?

The rule says:

"If you make a wound roll od 6+ for this weapon, it inflicts 1 mortal wound in addition to it's normal damage"

Yes, with the sergeant's buff they do mortal wounds on a 5+.  If the enemy has a -1 or more to the wound roll you can't do the mortal wounds in the same way (unless the sergeant's buff negates it).

[Wassa]

Do we even use the marines datasheet for these?

 

Or are we currently stuck with the rounds that can shoot round corners?

[Panzer]

Do we even use the marines datasheet for these?

 

Or are we currently stuck with the rounds that can shoot round corners?

 

Not sure what you are talking about, but yes we got the updated Datasheet with S5 snipers, las-fusils and fancy veteran options.

[Indefragable]

For me, Las-fusil Eliminators go together with Incursors/Infiltrators like lamb and tuna fish*. If you Infiltrate enough things up in the enemy’s face, he has to deal with prioritizing the AT shooting or the infantry that will lock him up right away.

 

I think they can be complimentary to lascannon Devs, but they need to be used differently. Eliminators are al about positioning, while Devs are about raw firepower (+1 To Hit, Cherub) and buffs (gunline standards of Capt+LT+Standard of Sacrifice). If you just deploy Eliminators willy-nilly then you make your opponent’s choice for him, giving him the easy option of hitting the target he can actually reach rather than having it press forward to crack a gunline. On the other hand, if you deploy your gunline aggressively, he may opt to go after that greater threat first; thus freeing up your Eliminators to plink away.

 

 

 

* https://youtu.be/iOLaTxa0cm8

[Wassa]

 

Do we even use the marines datasheet for these?

 

Or are we currently stuck with the rounds that can shoot round corners?

 

Not sure what you are talking about, but yes we got the updated Datasheet with S5 snipers, las-fusils and fancy veteran options.

 

 

 

The Space Marines Battlescribe has Mortis Rounds as:

 

 

Bolt sniper rifle - Mortis round 36" Heavy 1 5 -2 D3 This weapon can target a CHARACTERunit even if it is not the closest enemy unit. When resolving an attack made with this weapon, a wound roll of 6+ inflicts 1 mortal wound on the target in addition to any other damage.

 

But the Blood Angels Battlescribe still has Mortis Rounds as:

 

 

Bolt sniper rifle - Mortis round 36" Heavy 1 5 -1 1 This weapon can target units that are not visible to the bearer. Add 2 to hit rolls made for this weapon. Units do not receive the benefit of cover to their saving throws against attacks made with this weapon.

 

Which (used to) allow shooting around corners. Is this wrong then? Are Blood Angels relegated to the new datasheet?

[Karhedron]

I would not rely on Battlescribe as it has been known to have mistakes. The definitive rules for us to use Eliminators are here.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/warhammer_40000_space_marines_summer_update_en.pdf

[Panzer]

 

 

Do we even use the marines datasheet for these?

 

Or are we currently stuck with the rounds that can shoot round corners?

 

Not sure what you are talking about, but yes we got the updated Datasheet with S5 snipers, las-fusils and fancy veteran options.

 

 

 

The Space Marines Battlescribe has Mortis Rounds as:

 

 

Bolt sniper rifle - Mortis round 36" Heavy 1 5 -2 D3 This weapon can target a CHARACTERunit even if it is not the closest enemy unit. When resolving an attack made with this weapon, a wound roll of 6+ inflicts 1 mortal wound on the target in addition to any other damage.

 

But the Blood Angels Battlescribe still has Mortis Rounds as:

 

 

Bolt sniper rifle - Mortis round 36" Heavy 1 5 -1 1 This weapon can target units that are not visible to the bearer. Add 2 to hit rolls made for this weapon. Units do not receive the benefit of cover to their saving throws against attacks made with this weapon.

 

Which (used to) allow shooting around corners. Is this wrong then? Are Blood Angels relegated to the new datasheet?

 

 

Don't rely on Battlescribe for such things. Someone simply confused the names for the different rounds. Our Eliminators can do the exact same things with all three rounds as the vanilla Codex ones (minus Combat Doctrines and such).

[Karhedron]

This topic has got very quiet since 9th edition dropped. I guess that, rather paradoxically, this speaks volumes about this unit.

 

Let's dust it off and see what we can make of it. I haven't managed to play many games of 9th yet and this is one unit I have not played at all. My first thought is that the Las Fusil squad looks distinctly underwhelming. They are 40 points each while a Lascannon Devastator is only 33 and brings a better gun. The camo cloak and deployment options are handy but I just don't see Las Fusils as being particularly viable. The role of Primaris anti-tank seems to be adequately filled by Eradicators.

 

The Sniper variants on the other hand look like they might have mileage. They are not too pricey at 90 points and their guns are just right for putting down MEQs. A lone squad will be lucky to bag anything but a supporting character but the threat alone may force your enemy to be a bit more cautious that normal. If a psyker gets unlucky and suffers a perils, they can deliver a coup-de-grace. Selfless Healer Apothecaries are all the rage at the moment but lose their shine if they are having to heal themselves every turn.

 

Give the Serg an Instigator bolt carbine and you have a perfect caddy for Quake bolts since he is BS2+. Add in Camo cloaks and Concealed positions and you have a unit that looks pretty decent for 90 points. They are not a powerhouse but they are reasonably priced and have some interesting uses.

 

Lastly, as a Blood Angel player, my FA slots tend to fill up quickly but I usually have a HS slot or two spare, even at 2000 points.

[DistractionTacMarine]

No need to use the carbine, you can take Quake Bolts with the sniper rifle since it’s still a bolt weapon.

 

I think that Eliminators might gain some real mileage out of the proliferation of support characters in SM and DG armies. Things like Judiciars, Librarians, and Apothecaries are ideal targets for Eliminators, and they only need to kill one character to make their points back. With the hyperfrag rounds they can also flex into anti-horde duty pretty easily with 9 shots at BS2 against any unit with more than 5 models. No AP but S5 is nice.

[Bonzi]

I would say with the rise of strong Gravis units (Heavy Intercessors and Eradicators) it might be worth rethinking Las Fusils as less an anti tank unit and more as an ideal unit to counter those threats. Flat 3 damage is a great counter to those units and even see mileage against Death Guard.

[The Unseen]

I could see replacing my whirlwind with a squad of sniper eliminators. Marines really want a single long-ranged unit to hold a home objective that's still capable of contributing to the battle while being hard enough to remove that its difficult for the opponent to justify trying to kill it. A whirlwind dropping suppression fire and a unit of snipers threatening to pop support characters do similar things to your opponents battle plans, and the eliminators are cheaper and don't need CP. Quake bolts on the sarge is also interesting, as the range and only having 1 shot makes them a prime candidate for a long range buff machine, as most everything else that could take it either has multiple shots (Techmarines Forge Bolter, Captain Bolters) or is a pistol. 

[Jolemai]

27 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Sorry for the threadomancy but the recent points update in the Munitorum Field Manual has made Las Fusils a free upgrade so a squad is now only 75 points.

That is a very good deal for a squad that gets a 1+ save in Cover (great utility from Armour of Contempt) and can infiltrate onto the battlefield. They may only be a "light" anti-tank weapon but for 75 points, it is hard to see a downside.

To keep everything in one place