New relic is busted

[TrawlingCleaner]

 

It was the use of the word "incredible" :yes:

 

It's a good relic, not a game breaker and far from unbeatable. Just take out the character bearing it with scout snipers and the relic could be lost turn 1. ;)

It’s not a game breaker, but to put it in context, it’s a wave serpent shield aura. The various levels of damage mitigation (FNP and others depending on the unit) just make interesting possibilities

Just to piggy back on this, there's a reason why wave serpents with Ulthwé are one of the best transports in the game. We now have access to this but with more firepower AND this ability is an aura

[Ishagu]

So the relic is actually incredible? :-P

 

Definitely one of the best ones we've seen thus far, either way.

[TrawlingCleaner]

So the relic is actually incredible? :-P

 

Definitely one of the best ones we've seen thus far, either way.

I definitely think it's one of the best ones so far. IMO as much as I love that iron hands are getting a lot of buffs, I don't think that the reduce damage and half damage should work together

[Slasher956]

 

<snip> it’s a wave serpent shield aura. <snip>

 

isnt this relice, Damage = 1 even if it would be more.  & the wave serpent shield, damage = DX -1 to min of 1??

[Charlo]

For once... And I say this lightly...

 

I agree with Ishagu.

 

D3 damage weapons become 2D max and mostly 1D, D6 damage weapons have a 1/3 chance of being 1D and are more unattractive for a command re-roll with that risk.

 

Flat 3D weapons are few and far between (Helverin Autocannons, Custodes Adrathic... Anything else that's not huge and hardly spammable?) and so this relic will almost always be powerful.

 

Sure, 1D weapons remain the same but... If they're shooting at dreads with Heavy Bolters you've already won ;)

[TrawlingCleaner]

 

Flat 3D weapons are few and far between (Helverin Autocannons, Custodes Adrathic... Anything else that's not huge and hardly spammable?) and so this relic will almost always be powerful.

 

Predator autocannons too I think. Dreadnought fists as well

[Happy-inquisitor]

So the relic is actually incredible? :-P

 

Definitely one of the best ones we've seen thus far, either way.

 

I think it is incredibly good and if you play IH you will pretty much always take it.

 

It does what the Serpent Shield does but stacks well with other damage-reducing abilities and it also works in CC. Thunderhammers only doing D1 to that Leviathan Dread which you really want to keep alive is a big deal. Unless you are playing an all infantry IH list why would you ever not pick this relic?

[point_Zer0]

 

How would this work with Duty Eternal? This seems insane on a Leviathan combined with the Relic.

You chose which to action first so you take 1 off then halve?

 

So 6 damage wiil become 2? With a 2+ 4++ and 6+++ he is gonna kick som serious ass, if that's not FAQed or discribed somehow in the supplement.

[casb1965]

@ Charlo - heavy bolters?  the Land Raider Crusader has to shoot at something whilst unloading its assault terminators with charge range

 

But yes, it is a good Relic not incredible (that word taken literally) but I've only seen arguments so far where it's been combined with an invun or FNP or Duty Eternal.

 

Is -1D alone really that good? It reduces damage on average by what?

 

Also, I've not seen anywhere does it reduce mortal wound damage? That could change it from good to very good.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

No, because MWs are counted individually rather than in a group like regular damage.

[casb1965]

I was thinking of something like Purifying Flame which does 1d6 mortal wounds would it become 1d6-1.

[Charlo]

@ Charlo - heavy bolters? the Land Raider Crusader has to shoot at something whilst unloading its assault terminators with charge range

 

But yes, it is a good Relic not incredible (that word taken literally) but I've only seen arguments so far where it's been combined with an invun or FNP or Duty Eternal.

 

Is -1D alone really that good? It reduces damage on average by what?

 

Also, I've not seen anywhere does it reduce mortal wound damage? That could change it from good to very good.

But that's because Iron Hands HAVE a 6+ FNP?!

 

ALSO duty eternal is very powerful and relatively cheap stratagem that affects dreadnoughts, the type of unit that's easy to protect with the Iron stone...

[casb1965]

Would be interesting to see IH vs IF, 6+ FNP vs 6s=2 hits

 

Extra saves vs extra shots could be interested.

[Panzer]

 

Is -1D alone really that good? It reduces damage on average by what?

 

 

Yes, it really is that good. Keep in mind that it applies to every single attack. 

 

A regular Dreadnought has T7 W8 Sv3+.

With a S7 AP-1 D2 autocannon it normally takes 16 19.2 hits to destroy it. The relic essentially reduces the profile to D1 which means it now takes 32 38.4 hits to destroy it.

With a Lascannon it normally takes about 4 4.9 hits to destroy it. With the relic it now takes about 5.4 6.48 hits to destroy it (it reduces the damage of a D1d6 wound by about 0.83 on average because it won't reduce the damage if a 1 gets rolled).

The numbers for Lascannons don't look very impressive, but I'm talking about hits. So needing 1.58 more hits actually means needing 2.37 more Lascannon carrying Marines. That's a bit more than half a Devastator squad your opponent needs more now just for a measely Dreadnought (typing that hurts more than it should lol).

 

Against a Landraider? Oh boy, now it takes 144 172.8(!) of those S7 AP-1 D2 hits instead of 72 86.4 to take one down for good and 6.75 8.1 Lascannon hits instead of just 5 6.17.

 

 

Also for Dreadnoughts you can additionally use the "Duty Eternal" Stratagem to half the damage before reducing it by 1. This reduces a D1d6 wound to just 1-2 damage in combination with the relic. So it now takes 12.96 Lascannon hits to kill a regular Dreadnought on average!

 

 

EDIT: forgot to factor in the 6+++ at first ^^

Edited September 10, 2019 by sfPanzer

[casb1965]

That was what I was looking for, the actual math behind whether it was powerful or just good and it does look extremely good.

 

The actual additional firepower needed to wound is where the advantage lies, while they're trying to deal with one thing they can't deal with something else.

[Panzer]

Considering how incredibly tanky a Dreadnought with said relic and the use of "Duty Eternal" becomes ... do Iron Hands still have access to the Chaplain Dreadnought? I know I wish I could do these things with my Blood Angels Librarian Dreadnought for sure! :D

[Kallas]

do Iron Hands still have access to the Chaplain Dreadnought?

 

Why wouldn't they?

 

+++

 

On another note, this Relic is huge for making vehicles a lot more resilient to Thunder Hammers. Dropping them down to D2 is a big difference; and for something like a CVD, it can make them incredibly tough combined with Duty Eternal - that'd drop them to D1, which means they'd take a minimum of 9 failed (5++) saves, and then have the 6+++ to contend with too. Seems like a pretty strong counter, especially if they try to hunt your Warlord down.

 

Only in death does duty end...except that death seems a long way off!

[ERJAK]

The real weakness of the relic is that it neuters the IH's dev doctrine bonus, in addition to limiting your ability to actually play objectives.

 

Sure, a Leviathan or two with this is a solid fire base, but that's almost half your army that has to suffle around in a ball together.

 

Oh, also it's not that impressive when the lascannon rolls 6 either.

[TrawlingCleaner]

The real weakness of the relic is that it neuters the IH's dev doctrine bonus, in addition to limiting your ability to actually play objectives.

 

Sure, a Leviathan or two with this is a solid fire base, but that's almost half your army that has to suffle around in a ball together.

 

Oh, also it's not that impressive when the lascannon rolls 6 either.

For sure at a low points level this isn't great because as you point out, you're putting all your expensive eggs in a basket in a ball without stuff for objectives. In competitive games (which is what I'm assuming most people here are talking about), that ball of expensive dreadnoughts/vehicles is durable enough to shoot or assault a lot off the table while your troops take objectives.

 

As it's been pointed out already, it's going to be incredibly difficult to take a Leviathan, redemptor, contemptor, ironclad off the table. Doesn't matter if your lascannon does 6 damage if the dreadnought has the Duty Eternal strat and this relic. 6 gets cut down to 2 which you then make FNP on, combined with the rest of the IH trait of essentially having double the wounds on the woundtable. Dreads are genuinely terrifying now and I love it

[Panzer]

Spike damage is always nasty, but for each 6 your opponent rolls he also eventually rolls a 1 that does basically nothing to you even without the relic. That's how you get averages. ^^

[CCE1981]

I am thinking of surrounding a Techmarine with Contemptor Mortis Dreadnoughts. An 9” move with the Techmarine Advancing is pretty good mobility.

[casb1965]

I hope you're giving the techmarine a conversion beamer for more dakka.

[ERJAK]

 

The real weakness of the relic is that it neuters the IH's dev doctrine bonus, in addition to limiting your ability to actually play objectives.

 

Sure, a Leviathan or two with this is a solid fire base, but that's almost half your army that has to suffle around in a ball together.

 

Oh, also it's not that impressive when the lascannon rolls 6 either.

For sure at a low points level this isn't great because as you point out, you're putting all your expensive eggs in a basket in a ball without stuff for objectives. In competitive games (which is what I'm assuming most people here are talking about), that ball of expensive dreadnoughts/vehicles is durable enough to shoot or assault a lot off the table while your troops take objectives.

 

As it's been pointed out already, it's going to be incredibly difficult to take a Leviathan, redemptor, contemptor, ironclad off the table. Doesn't matter if your lascannon does 6 damage if the dreadnought has the Duty Eternal strat and this relic. 6 gets cut down to 2 which you then make FNP on, combined with the rest of the IH trait of essentially having double the wounds on the woundtable. Dreads are genuinely terrifying now and I love it

I agree that dreads are great now, no argument there.

 

But on the other hand, it's going to be very difficult to get 1 dread off the table. The other ones, not so much. Bait out the strat on the leviathan and kill the others.

 

And yeah, that ball is durable enough to survive long enough to let troops capture stuff...except your opponent will probably just wipe out all your troops first.

 

Yeah, they'll eat a lot of damage doing so but A. Leviathan's best weapons are fairly short range so they can outmanuever a decent chunk of your shooting and B They'll still have a great position to win on objectives if you rely too heavily on a dreadball.

 

It's easy to want to put like 1000 or more pts of leviathan plus character support into that bubble but it risks just ending up with your opponent killing off 800pts of troops in 2 turns and camping out objectives while your dreads lumber around.

[ERJAK]

Spike damage is always nasty, but for each 6 your opponent rolls he also eventually rolls a 1 that does basically nothing to you even without the relic. That's how you get averages. ^^

Over the course of a couple dozen games, sure. Not gonna make you feel better when he spikes your leviathan to death in turn 1.

 

Averages are a tool we use to simplify expected output and nothing more. They're largely irrelevant in single games due to low sample sizes.

[Aothaine]

This character can easily be hidden behind a vehicle, and be equipped with a strong invul.

 

First, I want to say that I agree with Ishagu there. This relic is bonkers.

 

But an Eliminator squad with mortis rounds could potentially make small work of their character. Granted it won't be done in one turn though. Unless you're really lucky. If the character is in los you can use the executioner rounds instead making the demise of the character much more likely.

 

On the topic of Dreadnoughts, they are cool. But I don't think there are going to be Dreadnought lists. They can't capture enough points. Troops are really needed to control and win a game these days, as it should be. Also, most Dreadnoughts just don't have the fire-power needed to pose much of a threat to an enemy army and they are expensive. 

 

I can see this being used best on a aura captain for three reuplsor executioners though. This is one of the more scary options imho. Or even with the tri-vindicator builds people went crazy about when the first 8th space marine dex came out. All the sudden those vindicators should be alive even if you don't get first turn.