Iron Hands Supplement: Calculated Fury Uses

[quasistellar]

I would always take the 3HKs on a Leviathan...

 

I wonder if it will get a nerf in the near future. I'm a bit cautious with FW units at the moment.

I actually would not be surprised to see the Leviathan get a nerf in the fall big FAQ. Before the new codex it was just a great unit, but now. . .

 

I would honestly like to see them change the stormcannon profile to 8 shots instead of 10. Ten shots at that profile is just too much to balance properly IMO.

 

Then they should change its invulnerable to the same thing the deredeo has: 5++ to range and 4++ to melee. This thing was supposed to be a melee to mid range siege dreadnought after all.

Edited September 13, 2019 by quasistellar

[THUNDERFISTS]

Those sound like modest nerfs to really bring the Levi into line. Right now there's no way it should be 100+ cheaper than a Knight and yet harder to kill, even before all the defensive buffs. The other weapon options should really be addressed too to add some variety. I'd love to run the melta lances but at 75pts they're just garbage. 

[Ishagu]

Here's the problem. If you nerf it the unit is still amazing with Iron Hands, and no longer usable with everyone else. How is tha fair?

[emperorpants]

The Levi dread is fine for everyone else and only bonkers for Iron Hands.  It's the same problem as when Gman had his full aura:  how do you balance one factions great abilities on a unit without making that unit garbage for everyone else?  Honestly GW will probably just shoot it's points up through the roof in general and nerf it into uslessness for everyone but Iron hands for whom it will just be alright for the points.  What GW SHOULD do, imo, is start pointing things different for different chapters.  That would fix alot of these issues.

[quasistellar]

I think the Levi can be balanced just fine. It was okay before due to all other space marines bar guilliman sucking around it, but now with additional rules that apply to it, it needs to be brought down a bit.

 

Sure this means it will be good for Iron Hands, but less good for other chapters, but you'll get that with all units no matter what.

[Lemondish]

Here's the problem. If you nerf it the unit is still amazing with Iron Hands, and no longer usable with everyone else. How is tha fair?

It's one unit. One FW unit. We'll survive. What's the other alternative? Allow a broken unit to define the meta again?

 

I'd rather the ugly resin block trash bin suffer rather than let it become the linchpin of every marine list. I really truly loathe that thing.

[Ishagu]

One unit that costs a lot of money that people have lovingly put together and painted.

 

Besides, you should he just as concerned with Venerable Dreads who are characters.

I think the Levi can be balanced just fine. It was okay before due to all other space marines bar guilliman sucking around it, but now with additional rules that apply to it, it needs to be brought down a bit.

 

Sure this means it will be good for Iron Hands, but less good for other chapters, but you'll get that with all units no matter what.

Thing with Guilliman is that he made shooting efficient, but you could kill everything around him easily. Good luck destroying an Iron Hands leviathan. It's harder to bring down than a Castellan with a 3++ and it can recover 9 wounds a turn.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Ishagu

[emperorpants]

As for it being one unit, they've also nerfed the executioner for everyone when the nerf was clearly because of Iron hands abilities.  It's just something I personally don't want to see as a trend, you know, nerfing units that become incredible under these rules into being unusable for the rest of the armies.  Granted the executioner isn't unusable for everyone else, but some of my lists certainly didn't appreciate the points hike on it.  

[quasistellar]

One unit that costs a lot of money that people have lovingly put together and painted.

 

Besides, you should he just as concerned with Venerable Dreads who are characters.

I think the Levi can be balanced just fine. It was okay before due to all other space marines bar guilliman sucking around it, but now with additional rules that apply to it, it needs to be brought down a bit.

 

Sure this means it will be good for Iron Hands, but less good for other chapters, but you'll get that with all units no matter what.

Thing with Guilliman is that he made shooting efficient, but you could kill everything around him easily. Good luck destroying an Iron Hands leviathan. It's harder to bring down than a Castellan with a 3++ and it can recover 9 wounds a turn.

 

 

It's a trap IMO.  Trouble is that the Levi feels bad to ignore because it's ALSO so darn killy with stormcannons.

[Sea-People]

How do people feel about drop pods with this new rule? 3 Devastator squads coming down turn 1 seems quite nasty, especially with the grav stratagem!

Edited September 13, 2019 by Sea-People

[TrawlingCleaner]

 

 

Some of this stuff HAS to get nerfed for sure

[Lemondish]

One unit that costs a lot of money that people have lovingly put together and painted.

 

Besides, you should he just as concerned with Venerable Dreads who are characters.

 

I think the Levi can be balanced just fine. It was okay before due to all other space marines bar guilliman sucking around it, but now with additional rules that apply to it, it needs to be brought down a bit.

 

Sure this means it will be good for Iron Hands, but less good for other chapters, but you'll get that with all units no matter what.

Thing with Guilliman is that he made shooting efficient, but you could kill everything around him easily. Good luck destroying an Iron Hands leviathan. It's harder to bring down than a Castellan with a 3++ and it can recover 9 wounds a turn.

Why would I be concerned about Ven Dread characters - we've had that in the Chaplain Dread all along and it hasn't exactly been a meta buster ;)

 

I think the sky is falling rhetoric around these parts is extremely early.

 

The reason why these seem really powerful is because they're super easy to assess the impact on paper immediately. You don't have to really even do or respond to anything. There's no strategy required, no response to changes in the landscape needed. You follow a basic albeit powerful plan of building a resilient bubble of units that you then just heal up and spend CP to make ultra durable.

 

But nobody is talking about what you give up.

 

This death bubble moves slowly. It can't really break apart reliably without giving up the buffs you've spent so much CP and points building your list around. Once you do, your list is sub-optimal for that purpose.

 

I think there are key gaps in the armour that can and will be exploited and I think it's only a matter of time until they are discovered. A matter of time that includes models on the table and dice being thrown.

[Khornestar]

They're not going to release a brand new publication and immediately nerf everything. Just not gonna happen. Sales are far more important than perceived imbalance, especially before every other book is released to provide context (for Astartes).

Edited September 13, 2019 by Juggernut

[Ishagu]

Ven Dread characters are going to be a lot cheaper (50 point less with a twin Lascannon) and have more attacks. They are also cheaper to buy so you'll see plenty of them.

 

I'm not saying the Sky is falling. I'm saying that this chapter will be very strong, and potentially too devastating in casual games. I'm not worried about my local group, we have plenty of terrain and skilled players.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Ishagu

[Khornestar]

Ven Dread characters are going to be a lot cheaper (50 point less with a twin Lascannon) and have more attacks. They are also cheaper to buy so you'll see plenty of them.

 

I'm not saying the Sky is falling. I'm saying that this chapter will be very strong, and potentially too devastating in casual games. I'm not worried about my local group, we have plenty of terrain and skilled players.

 

Just a general comment than one directed at anyone in particular. It's just a bit silly sometimes how consistent "new thing is OP and will/must be nerfed" is. 

[chapter master 454]

By all accounts, certainly Iron Hands are coming out the gate strong however the amount of people saying they will stick to devastator doctrine are really going to lose out on the wider picture.

 

Your opening is going to be strong but if you overload on heavy weapons you will be forced to stick to devastator doctrine just to maintain full firing effect while your other weapons will find a hard time gaining ground. Not going to say it ain't a bad plan but hey: AP1 on hurricane boltguns on centurions is kinda tasty, just saying!

 

Another aspect is if you need to get down to the gritty melee (and you should always prepare to, even with your improved overwatch) then you can't switch out to assault doctrine when things get personal. Again, the main thing here is you do get mobility from turn 1 with heavy weapons but by all accounts that only matters if you actually move and a lot of time, heavy weapon platforms don't like getting close! They tend to want to move away, not towards.

I would say the re-roll 1s for heavy weapons is nice but I don't know, if you do go castle then...are you literally again going to not bring captains? Not going to bring a chapter master? (so far, I have found it AMAZING with how they changed it, raw re-roll so good!) and in turn mean you don't give support to other aspects of your army just because "Heavy weapons naturally have it so why bring it".

 

Again, a mass of character dreadnoughts would be annoying but 3 character ven dreads will run you back 3CP, and at my current tally marine lists seem only able to get to 13CP effectively without sacrificing too much in points for troop tax for the third battalion (what is the cheapest battery battalion for marines because I believe because of scouts and most HQs it would be somewhere about 250-290) along with those units not being part of your grander plan (after all, those scouts don't bring heavy weapons en mass like some want to).

So that would be 10CP so far, depending on relics I would wager there will be 2-3CP more for relics and warlord trait taking so now down to 7-8CP (and so far, Iron Hands have no CP regen).

Not saying it wouldn't be effective but your CP count would drop fast and hard with your ability to use stratagems becoming rapidly diminished.

 

Key points that could sink you: The dreads would certainly be terrors but rely on what weapons they have and while some are good, you really don't have much in the way of going further. If you go shooting style, the dreads become easily bullied by melee units. If you go melee then they have to waddle across the battlefield. Both have pros, the shooting kind are immune to getting put on blast unless all other units closer get nuked (and its iron hands likely so that 6+++ is going to make it a little harder, not much though it ain't a 5+++ XD) and the melee dreads are 6 attacks on the charge with a DCCW which hits like a dump truck! Suppose if you go melee you go ironclad and have 7 I believe on the charge.

 

Don't put too much stock in redemptors, they can't get character protection and can still be dropped fairly easily though the lack of issue with their heavy weapons now is a big boon for them from turn 1. Certain to see testing but I think they will fall to the wayside fairly fast in favour of dreads with sub 10 wounds to be able to hide with character keyword. Certainly see a world with double battalion and 6 dreads (3 vens, 3 ironclands) all made characters being a possible contender for a beast in any meta (except when flyers are concerned...wheres the Dreadnought Fly Swatter Combat weapons? Just a massive fly swatter with a telescopic boom XD Iron Hand to Iron Swat!)

 

Another killer could be line of sight. Yes you can move but the moment those smaller units begin weaving behind terrain, you will have a hard time getting a bead on them as most heavy weapon platforms don't move fast enough to change those angles enough. For all your "I can move and fire" bravado, remember most heavy weapon platforms will not be able to move more than 6" and that ain't a lot.

Certainly the executioners could see some play here but I don't know, I almost feel ultras do it better with Scions being better for the Aquilon Optics (or did I miss the memo that it doesn't work?). They weren't bothered to begin with anyway with PotMS.

 

The other aspect I want to hit is despite all the ability to repair, once that sort of thing gets around people won't bother leaving half dead units around and instead actually go for the kill (which most times they do anyway) so I wouldn't bank on healing your gunline all the time...especially if my grav-turions get a crack at them!

 

 

Lots of potential but want to put some downer on the fire because we could get caught up in the hype. I am most certainly going to be trying the Iron Hands out and looking forward to it but something in my mind says that Ultramarines do the move and shoot heavy gear better...meh...time will tell.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you run dreads and why not make sure to take some melee weapons so you don’t get locked down in melee.

[Watch Captain Artemis]

I hope they disable the stratagem with the half damage for the 3 big dreads from FW, like they did with the fire frenzy stratagem from chaos. It would be a easy fix without hurting other chapters.

[Charlo]

IH are strong, sure. But like CM454 says, the army is very static and slow. Ultimately, while you can potentially blow your opponent off the table, you still need to capture objectives and for that you need fast, powerful and even disposable units.

 

However I think IH's biggest strength is the lack of a need to castle up in Dev Doctrine. With native rerolls to 1s you can spread out and ensure efficiency. It's only really Ferros, the Ironstone Bearer and whatever Dreads they have in tow that need to be together, and that blob will be moving a decent distance each turn.

 

The best armies will be those that can keep moving with heavy guns firing optimally for the maximum time before knowing exactly when to switch to a future doctrine for the most impact.

 

Also Captain Smash on Bike with History WLT is gunna be gnarly.

[emperorpants]

Well, iron hands are actually deceptively fast. Their super doctrine is active turn one. They move all their heavy stuff with no penalty and re roll ones for free. This makes them very mobile and deadly right from turn one. Especially if you run intercessors with stalker bolt rifles. Those things are going to be shooting at 36 inch range at 4 strength, ap 3, and 2 damage profile. That is going to mess things up. Hard. Also iron hand flyers are going to be amazing. Stormtalons will hit on twos and re roll ones for iron hands. Combined with the intercessors and executioners enemy troops are going to get munlched. I'm really struggling to see how mobility is going to be an issue. Having your doctrine active turn one and not actually needing to castle really helps guys. Not seeing how other space marines are supposed to deal with this. After all, you know what models have zero mobility and score zero objectives? Dead ones. Also, impulsers exist. Those are going to be hard to kill and very fast. Plus you can disembark and move still after it moves 14 inches. Plus it's cheap. Mobility won't be an issue if you don't want it to be. Edited September 14, 2019 by emperorpants

[Ishagu]

Agreed. No need to castle anything beyond a few vehicles. Rest of the army should be running around winning the mission.

[Token]

Anyone gona be spamming Plasma Cannons? 1/36 overfheat risk instead of 1/6, or 1/3 on the move. Right?

 

Please excuse grammar, spelling mistakes and such.

[crazyterran]

Why are those relics/warlord traits being linked? The WLT is one hit woll, one wound roll, one damage roll for one unit, no big deal.

 

The Iron Stone we already knew about.

 

You can make a Ven Dread a character, but you can't give it a relic assuming they are the same as the other books.

 

If your Librarian is hiding behind the Dreadnoughts he's not smiting, and most chapters are only going to have so many Command Points.

 

And if someone is running Leviathans and Contemptors, after the first Leviathan pops the Strategem, you kill the other one/the contemptors. I mean, most lists now adays are about being able to pot a Knight or severely cripple it in one turn, no?

[emperorpants]

The best thing would be to run one Levi dread and then a few tanks. Honestly, these buffs are so good that even a list made to take out knights is going to have a pretty big problem. As for dreads taking relics it seems iron hands character dreads actually can do it. GW themselves actually gave an example of a iron hands dread with a relic. Which is of course bonkers. What really gets me though is the fact that iron hands, despite being the best at their obvious speciality, are also great at everything and seem to have no weaknesses. It's insane. They have the best defense. Period. It's not even close. They also, as of now, are the best offensively. They are also great at mobility if they want. They actually seem more flexible in this regard than the ultras, who are supposedly focused on being flexible. They have great psychic powers. They have insane stratagems. In fact, their stratagems are the most insulting part to other chapters. What's that you say? Black Templars are supposed to be good at psychic defense? Well iron hands have a better version of their deny stratagem! They can even do it after failing a deny! Super fair! What? Ultras are the most tactical and flexible and can choose to put one troop or bike unit in a different doctrine for a turn? Well iron hands, for the same command points cost, can give ANY UNIT THE BENEFITS OF TWO DOCTRINES AT ONCE. Being both more tactically flexible and flat out stronger. Iron hands can be better at doing other chapters specialities. It's like Matt Ward became an iron hands fan and wrote their rules. How are other chapters supposed take things like that? It's honestly insulting. Edited September 15, 2019 by emperorpants

[Morovir]

They can't - it is explicitly stated in the supplement that VEHICLES cannot take relics or special issue wargear. A mistake was made, that is all.