Character Deaths

[Morovir]

If Lucius has to have an "end", that end is becoming a pit fighter in the depths of Commorragh for the rest of eternity.

 

Have you read Lucius: The Faultless Blade by any chance?

[Slips]

Didnt they kill off Creed and Sgt Kells in Cadia event...?

[DeadFingers]

Have you read Lucius: The Faultless Blade by any chance?

Nope. All I know is that Lelith wants to do exactly what I said with him and that's why she's following the Ynnari around the galaxy.

[Morovir]

Let's just say that they tried. It went as well as you could expect. And, shockingly enough, didn't involve Lucius dying!

[Marshal Rohr]

Didnt they kill off Creed and Sgt Kells in Cadia event...?

Killed Kell, Creed was captured by Trazin.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Didnt they kill off Creed and Sgt Kells in Cadia event...?

 

Kell died at Cadia but Creed was added to Trazyn's 'collection' and seemingly could be brought back if they so desired it.

[Tyriks]

 

Isn't the point of him becoming the person that killed him so he improves? I assumed he was keeping the skills of whoever became him and was therefore continuing to improve throughout the process. Is that not the case?

 

 

Maybe. Or maybe the point was just not getting killed for good. Anyway, for a master swordsman buffed by a chaos god he sure dies a lot in duels. :P

No disagreement here!

[Morovir]

I advise anyone who has not done so to read Lucius: The Faultless Blade. You get to see why Lucius does have a reputation for being an exceptional swordsman, rather than just some guy who comes back every time he dies.

 

On the same note, I read a comment once on Reddit that summed up the Emperor's Children, and Lucius in particular, perfectly. Namely, the Emperor's Children are those who will try to pull off impossible odds, those who will attempt that which others would write off as suicidal or impossible. Yes, they will suffer a tonne of casualties while doing so, but those that survive will be the best of the best. And Lucius is even better as he can keep trying those impossible odds in the knowledge that he will come back, and so he either succeeds first time round or he learns how not to pull off that manoeuvre for the next time.

[Lucerne]

I just really dislike the character. If anyone should go down it it's him, especially with a name like that lol.

Reminder that Cato Sicarius canonically sent his company Chaplain to die in a duel against Lucius at Medusa instead of facing him himself.

 

 

 

The Glory of Lucius

 

Captain Sicarius did not rise to the challenge of Lucius and it was left to the poor skill of a Chaplain to face the might of this mighty bladesman. Atop the Hydras Tooth, Lucius fought the warrior of the Ultramarines and cut him limb from limb without effort. The Eternal Ones blades cut the Chaplains face until it was a mirror of the scarred glory of Lucius. Only then, when the Chaplain was on his knees and utterly defeated did Lucius deliver the deathblow. To shame Captain Sicarius for his cowardice, Lucius then dismembered the body of his fallen opponent and mounted the remains upon a war standard to plant in the breach of Hive Euryales.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Ugolino

[b1soul]

On killing off Calgar to boost Abaddon's stock, his stock is already high thanks largely to ADB's work on the character. He killed off Sigismund himself...the guy who never lost a duel lost to Abaddon. He also rather easily offed Jubal, who was one of the best on the loyalist side. He won in the conflict with the Lord of Hosts. More recently, he caused the Imperium to essentially lose half its territory.

 

If anything, Abaddon dying would shake up the galaxy and even more effectively highlight There Is Only War

[Lucerne]

On killing off Calgar to boost Abaddon's stock, his stock is already high thanks largely to ADB's work on the character. He killed off Sigismund himself...the guy who never lost a duel lost to Abaddon. He also rather easily offed Jubal, who was one of the best on the loyalist side. He won in the conflict with the Lord of Hosts. More recently, he caused the Imperium to essentially lose half its territory.

 

If anything, Abaddon dying would shake up the galaxy and even more effectively highlight There Is Only War

When written properly, Abaddon is the Lucifer figure for CSM so he still has a narrative niche.

[Volt]

Maybe some characters should die? I don't know.

 

I don't want to see any recent models get snuffed out. Maybe some older models who won't be getting updated could, but not because they failed the Rubicon - that is a very pitiful way to sniff out a legendary character.

 

I'd love to see Lucius the Eternal get killed, he just needs to be put down by someone who feels no satisfaction or accomplishment in ending his life to break the curse, right?

Some of the older Chaos, Tau and Eldar heroes should all be on the "chopping block" if loyalists are.

Lucius has been killed by Necrons before and comes back still. His curse merely applies to possessing the soul of the person who slew him and took satisfaction, otherwise he gets resurrected by Slaanesh anyway.

[Tyr13]

Re: getting killed while crossing the Rubicon... I volunteer Kardan Stronos. Killing him off actually hits two birds with one stone: 1, even important people (like chapter masters) can die from it. 2, it could reignite the whole fledh is weak thing Iron Hands do. Stronos chose flesh, wad in favour of flesh, and he died.

 

 

(Ive been furious about IH fluff ever since they first introduced Stronos. The whole point of the chapter is doing something to honour someone when that zhing is the total opposite of what they wouldve wanted. Second-guessing that just removes a whole lot of grimdark. Plus, if anyone were distrusting of primaris, itd be the IH. Could lead to a neat civil war hook.)

[Marshal Loss]

On killing off Calgar to boost Abaddon's stock, his stock is already high thanks largely to ADB's work on the character.

 

In BL & FW publications, sure. But he has never come across as a compelling villain in mainstream GW campaign publications which is why negative perceptions of him persist.

 

If anything, Abaddon dying would shake up the galaxy and even more effectively highlight There Is Only War

 

Abaddon is a pillar of the setting in a way that someone like Calgar is not. Killing him would leave a gaping void that GW is not capable of filling.

[Ishagu]

Calgar is a pretty significant Pillar of the setting himself, on a par with Dante, Draigo, etc

 

He's only taken a partial backseat to Guilliman in the last two years.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

On killing off Calgar to boost Abaddon's stock, his stock is already high thanks largely to ADB's work on the character.

 

In BL & FW publications, sure. But he has never come across as a compelling villain in mainstream GW campaign publications which is why negative perceptions of him persist.

 

If anything, Abaddon dying would shake up the galaxy and even more effectively highlight There Is Only War

 

Abaddon is a pillar of the setting in a way that someone like Calgar is not. Killing him would leave a gaping void that GW is not capable of filling.

 

 

Especially now the Guilliman has returned, it would've been the perfect opportunity to send him off like a hero. 

[Marshal Loss]

Calgar is a pretty significant Pillar of the setting himself, on a par with Dante, Draigo, etc

 

He's only taken a partial backseat to Guilliman in the last two years.

 

He is a character who has played an important and prominent role in recent 40k history, but he isn't a pillar of the setting in the way I am describing. He's an exemplar, a great hero, not a pillar. If you removed him from 40k it wouldn't ruin or undermine existing lore in the way it would were Abaddon to be removed. Calgar dies - what changes? Not really a whole lot. Abaddon dies? Well, virtually all of CSM lore is built around him - his founding of the Black Legion, rejection of Horus' legacy, balancing act with the Dark Gods, and role as the "mortal" representative and the only one capable of temporarily uniting the Legions (particularly in an age where the Primarchs are coming back). It's not at all the same thing. Abaddon is essentially 40k's antichrist; Calgar holds a role of no such importance.

 

Please understand this isn't a slight on the UM fandom lol

Edited September 13, 2019 by Marshal Loss

[Panzer]

He really isn't nearly as important. Calgar, Draigo and even Dante could be easily replaced without the setting changing (the vision of Dante standing infront of the palace is not really important if it never comes to it anyway). They are big names, yes, but they aren't important for the setting itself. Abaddon however is important for the setting itself since he's the driving force behind the chaos marine threat.

[Ishagu]

Are you sure? Lorgar could easily take Abaddon's place as a unifying force of Chaos.

 

Would it change anything?

[Robbienw]

How would Lorgar do that?  He made a lot of enemies on his own side during the heresy, the likes of the Black Legion and the Iron Warriors would give him a stiff ignoring.  Plus he has been in hiding from Corax for millenia, not a good look the number 1 chaos warlord

 

The thing about abaddon is he is so exceptional because he is successful in holding the traitor forces at large in some kind of unity to oppose the imperium.  The only one to do that before was Horus.

 

Calgar is a great leader and character, but if he died there would be a bit of mourning for the loss of a great hero, then the ultramarines would elect a new chapter master and that is about it.  By contrast if Abbaddon died the whole unified traitor force would break down and begin infighting as dozens of warlords sought to take control.  The Black Legion would probably break down as well.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Robbienw

[DeadFingers]

Lorgar is a fanatical zealot and a Daemon, his vision is about spreading Chaos worship to the entire galaxy. Bringing the Imperium down is just a side effect of that.

 

The whole point of Abaddon is that he isn't a Daemon, he rejects the Chaos Gods' gifts, and still has the same objective they had back in the days of the Heresy, seeing Terra burn and the Emperor dead. His relatively neutral stance towards the Chaos Gods is what gets him support from Legions like the Night Lords and the Iron Warriors.

 

So yes, it'd change a whole lot of things.

Edited September 13, 2019 by DeadFingers

[Tyriks]

Abaddon in theory could be replaced but it'd take years, and multiple top-quality novels/series to pull off well. I honestly think he is one of the last characters they would consider killing off, right there with the remaining Primarchs.

[Brother Casman]

So, to come back to character deaths and not get lost on a tangent about a given character's importance to the setting, I would be totally down for it, if new players coming into the game were properly prepared for it. I'd probably have some sort of disclaimer in the main rule book, reinforcing the idea that anyone can die in the setting, when their stories come to a nice end-point.

 

For example, I would have had Calgar die just after the battle where Guilliman returned, having successfully defended his primarch. I'd even keep a model for Marneus Calgar - he'd be both the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines in certain time periods (and Matched Play/tournaments) and an exemplar model for certain styles of Chapter Master models for use in other Chapters (open/narrative play).

 

Ideally, a named character's story would have a satisfying narrative arc that can be divorced, to some degree, from their model. (Doesn't have to be a "good" ending, either, this is 40k after all).

[Tyriks]

So, to come back to character deaths and not get lost on a tangent about a given character's importance to the setting, I would be totally down for it, if new players coming into the game were properly prepared for it. I'd probably have some sort of disclaimer in the main rule book, reinforcing the idea that anyone can die in the setting, when their stories come to a nice end-point.For example, I would have had Calgar die just after the battle where Guilliman returned, having successfully defended his primarch. I'd even keep a model for Marneus Calgar - he'd be both the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines in certain time periods (and Matched Play/tournaments) and an exemplar model for certain styles of Chapter Master models for use in other Chapters (open/narrative play).Ideally, a named character's story would have a satisfying narrative arc that can be divorced, to some degree, from their model. (Doesn't have to be a "good" ending, either, this is 40k after all).

Yeah, it's much better when a character dies because their story is done than killing someone just because they aren't popular. Even a character I hate I would rather see redeemed (in a literary sense, not an in-universe sense) before killing them off.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Tyriks

[Ishagu]

Lol why were people so keen for Calgar to snuff it?

 

If an Ultramarine must go down it could be Cassius, Sicarius or Telion I guess. The models are all pretty good however.

 

I think the only way to do it in a way not to impact the actual tabletop too much would be to select an established hero, have them go down in a campaign but then replace them with a new model of someone who is similar. Eg: Belial dies, but a new Deathwing hero is released in modified Gravis armour.