Character Deaths

[Brother Casman]

Lol why were people so keen for Calgar to snuff it?

 

If an Ultramarine must go down it could be Cassius, Sicarius or Telion I guess. The models are all pretty good however.

 

I think the only way to do it in a way not to impact the actual tabletop too much would be to select an established hero, have them go down in a campaign but then replace them with a new model of someone who is similar. Eg: Belial dies, but a new Deathwing hero is released in modified Gravis armour.

I'm not trying to pick on the Ultramarines, he's just an example.

[Lexington]

I’m sure it won’t happen, but canonically, Commissar Yarrick should be a bag of extremely dead bones by now. Otherwise, in the current setting, he’d be like three or four hundred years old.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Revered war hero. Life preserving technology. Done.

[PeteySödes]

I’m sure it won’t happen, but canonically, Commissar Yarrick should be a bag of extremely dead bones by now. Otherwise, in the current setting, he’d be like three or four hundred years old.

 

Juvinat is a hellava drug...

[DeadFingers]

Revered war hero. Life preserving technology. Done.

He doesn't even need that. As long as there are Orks on Armageddon that know about One-Eye Yarrick, da 'umie that just won't die, he'll be fine. At least when it comes to natural death.

Edited September 13, 2019 by DeadFingers

[Ishagu]

 

 

Revered war hero. Life preserving technology. Done.

He doesn't even need that. As long as there are Orks on Armageddon that know about One-Eye Yarrick, da 'umie that just won't die, he'll be fine. At least when it comes to natural death.

This could be a thing. Inquisition should be on to it, however. This is Xenos warpcraft at play.

[Marshal Rohr]

Yarrick should definitely be dead. He was an old man in the 3rd War. Regardless of Juvenant treatments, you may live longer but you're still frail. The Lord Marshal of Agathon is as old as Yarrick and needs an ambulator frame to get around. 

[Red_Shift]

Yep Yarrick should be gone by now. Unless he is in Trazyn' s Mary Poppins handbag of preserved characters.

[Volt]

Lol why were people so keen for Calgar to snuff it?

 

If an Ultramarine must go down it could be Cassius, Sicarius or Telion I guess. The models are all pretty good however.

 

I think the only way to do it in a way not to impact the actual tabletop too much would be to select an established hero, have them go down in a campaign but then replace them with a new model of someone who is similar. Eg: Belial dies, but a new Deathwing hero is released in modified Gravis armour.

The model is irrelevant to the character as there is no reason you cannot continue to produce and use the model in wargames even though the character bit the dust.

[Wulf Vengis]

What Volt said.

 

They (gw) should feel inclined to kill off any character they want. There's no reason to stop producing the miniature or rules for the miniature once a character is dead.

 

At worst the character gets replaced by a new one and relegated to index status.

 

At best the character gets replaced by a new one and remains in the Codex.

 

No big deal, a characters death should only equate to actual ramifications in the fluff and not the crunch.

[Triszin]

 

I’m sure it won’t happen, but canonically, Commissar Yarrick should be a bag of extremely dead bones by now. Otherwise, in the current setting, he’d be like three or four hundred years old.

 

Juvinat is a hellava drug...

 

just go all out and turn him into a saint

[Knight of the Raven]

It's not much of a problem that the chess pieces always remain the same if the entire chessboard is frozen in stasis to begin with.

That's not the case anymore, though. But what's the point of tweaking, nudging, manhandling or even outright replacing the chessboard if the chess pieces are still the same? What's at stake if the precious few of them that do get flicked to the side stand back up with a fresh coat of paint and a brand new name two minutes later?

I'm partial to characters dying, especially when it prevents them from outstaying their welcome. A subjective spectrum, of course, although I do think many will agree that Ferrus Manus was the opposite in that we didn't even have time to finish saying "hello there!" before the Grimdark Reaper whisked him off stage with his scythe.

Killing characters is a minefield, though. Especially in Warhammer 40,000, where all factions are equal but some are more equal than others, and where the Emperor's Light casts long shadows behind the primarchs, which fall dark upon the chapter masters of their bloodlines.

[Ishagu]

If models are irrelevant and you can use them after death, why even do it? It's hollow and pointless.

[Ratherdashing]

 

 

 

Revered war hero. Life preserving technology. Done.

He doesn't even need that. As long as there are Orks on Armageddon that know about One-Eye Yarrick, da 'umie that just won't die, he'll be fine. At least when it comes to natural death.

This could be a thing. Inquisition should be on to it, however. This is Xenos warpcraft at play.

Something tells me that the Inquisition would find it convenient not to look too far into Yarrick's longevity because of just how valuable he is to humanity. And if some eager young Inquisitor decides to make it his mission to find out the inconvenient truth about one of the greatest human leaders alive, I have a feeling he'd meet with an equally inconvenient accident.

[DeadFingers]

Something tells me that the Inquisition would find it convenient not to look too far into Yarrick's longevity because of just how valuable he is to humanity. And if some eager young Inquisitor decides to make it his mission to find out the inconvenient truth about one of the greatest human leaders alive, I have a feeling he'd meet with an equally inconvenient accident.

If any Inquisitor ends up finding out that Yarrick's longevity is due to the Orks' psychic field, then the smart move would be doing nothing. If Yarrick is removed from the equation, Armageddon loses its most famous defender and the Orks will most likely gain the advantage. But if Yarrick eventually succeeds, the Orks are removed from Armageddon, and with them gone, so is their belief in Yarrick and their psychic shenanigans, and shortly after Yarrick dies a hero of the Imperium.

 

It's a win-win situation for them.

[Marshal Loss]

 

Something tells me that the Inquisition would find it convenient not to look too far into Yarrick's longevity because of just how valuable he is to humanity. And if some eager young Inquisitor decides to make it his mission to find out the inconvenient truth about one of the greatest human leaders alive, I have a feeling he'd meet with an equally inconvenient accident.

If any Inquisitor ends up finding out that Yarrick's longevity is due to the Orks' psychic field, then the smart move would be doing nothing. If Yarrick is removed from the equation, Armageddon loses its most famous defender and the Orks will most likely gain the advantage. But if Yarrick eventually succeeds, the Orks are removed from Armageddon, and with them gone, so is their belief in Yarrick and their psychic shenanigans, and shortly after Yarrick dies a hero of the Imperium.

 

It's a win-win situation for them.

 

 

After reading Spear of the Emperor I'm not sure "Inquisition" and "smart move" belong in the same sentence

[DeadFingers]

After reading Spear of the Emperor I'm not sure "Inquisition" and "smart move" belong in the same sentence

Fair point. :D

[m0nolith]

One of my major problems with the new fluff (which, for the most part, I think is just poor) is that there are no real consequences of the setting "moving forward". The same characters are running around, increasingly with fresh model, which in an endless war, just doesn't feel believable. As such, their accomplishments aren't interesting, as there was no chance of them failing. It's all too safe for my liking.

 

I get not wanting to kill a character that you're currently selling a model for (though, for real, nothing to stop you from playing with it; people still used Eldrad even after his apparent death during the now-retconned 13th Black Crusade and Eye of Terror campaign). But when replacing the model, a la the primaris rubicon characters, why not use that opportunity to replace the character with a cool story that sets some stakes in this post-rift galaxy, and replace them with a fresh character?

 

Instead, we get a setting that is no different than if it hadn't been moved forward.

The entire universe feels like its been cheapened due to a lack of consequences, especially since its a war setting.

Deaths, not ones that are there just for the shock value but genuine well done deaths are a great way to have us get attached to a universe, to keep us emotionally invested and interested in a story. Just ask George RR Martin.

I understand that the company has a new range it has to sell, but I just wish the lore was handled by someone who had more talent with storytelling.

 

Its a shame

Edited September 13, 2019 by m0nolith

[Volt]

If models are irrelevant and you can use them after death, why even do it? It's hollow and pointless.

 

"What is good storytelling for $500"

[Marshal Rohr]

It's not much of a problem that the chess pieces always remain the same if the entire chessboard is frozen in stasis to begin with.

 

That's not the case anymore, though. But what's the point of tweaking, nudging, manhandling or even outright replacing the chessboard if the chess pieces are still the same? What's at stake if the precious few of them that do get flicked to the side stand back up with a fresh coat of paint and a brand new name two minutes later?

 

I'm partial to characters dying, especially when it prevents them from outstaying their welcome. A subjective spectrum, of course, although I do think many will agree that Ferrus Manus was the opposite in that we didn't even have time to finish saying "hello there!" before the Grimdark Reaper whisked him off stage with his scythe.

 

Killing characters is a minefield, though. Especially in Warhammer 40,000, where all factions are equal but some are more equal than others, and where the Emperor's Light casts long shadows behind the primarchs, which fall dark upon the chapter masters of their bloodlines.

Ferrus is a wonderful example of how to build a character and kill him. Us longing for him to have been alive in the Heresy is proof it was exactly the way to do it. His lore is amazing. He’s one of the most accomplished field commanders of the crusade. His legion is brutal and renowned. The other Primarchs refers to him with awe and respect. His accomplishments made him a contender for Warmaster. Luckily we have the whole of the Great Crusade and the Isstvan V battle to play with him in. Edited September 14, 2019 by Marshal Rohr

[Kinstryfe]

If models are irrelevant and you can use them after death, why even do it? It's hollow and pointless.

For some factions that are less long lived than Astartes though, this pretty much has to be the understood norm. I'm partly positive that with a couple exceptions like Creed and Yarick the guard characters pretty much have to be just historic snapshots or archetypes. There's also at least one faction, the T'au, and to a lesser extent the Tyranids that make suspendion of disbelief a required part of the hobby. My Ultramarines are a heresy era company that, in my homebrew fluff for them, will eventually become the Preators of Orpheus. By all logic of the setting, it would be absolutely impossible for my army to ever face T'au, or Tyranids, or Sisters of Battle even, but this is obviously something that gets ignored for the sake of just playing the game. There's a willing disconnect that those who follow the lore and also play the game need to have to keep them separated enough that they won't render each other impossible.

[Legionnaire of the VIIth]

If models are irrelevant and you can use them after death, why even do it? It's hollow and pointless.

For me there is the narrative then there is the game. When playing pickup game and tournaments there is no narrative, there is only the game*. Narrative is the books, comic books, and campaigns. Things do not need to make narrative sense when dealing with the former but when I play the latter it is important, but the latter requires either a GW release or a coordinated effort by myself and other to create and play. The armies are not just thrown together with what is cool, they need to be planned and the characters being brought to the table should fit with the time frame the game is set in. If the game is placed in the Horus Heresy they need to make sense, for instance Eldrad works but Vect** doesn't. If the narrative campaign takes place in the War of the Beast Saul Tarvitz and Yarrick would make no sense to be in play but High Marshal Behemond would be able to take part.

 

The death and evolution of the factions through those deaths allows for narrative growth in campaigns and books that does not feel like just some generic superhero story. The story can be organic but by keeping around rules for the miniatures we love they can remain in general games while narratively they get locked out for those organized events that they no longer or would not be relevant for. Both can exist together and there is still reason for doing it in my opinion. I don't see how we are served narrative wise when we know x character has a miniature so he will one punch Avatars of Khaine and wrestle down Carnifex barehanded because they are the hero of the story without the risk of dying. With the change we have to wonder, will this be the time they will die or will they pull it off without Marry Sue powering it through. Does anyone really take things like the Avatar of Khaine serious in a narrative aspect anymore after all the times GW used them as a punching bag to show "x character is so great"?

 

Okay I'm rambling so I'll stop, I hope somewhere in this, most likely, near incoherent mess people can get what I'm attempting to say.

 

* If I am in the mood I might create some quick narrative in my head for the hell of it as we play but I don't mind that being in an alternate universe from the actual timeline, afterall how often is my Dark Eldar going to really duke it out with Guilliman and kill him in the process while making sense in the actual narrative GW creates?

 

** Not that GW has given him to us to play in the last two editions anyway...

[toaae]

 

 

Revered war hero. Life preserving technology. Done.

He doesn't even need that. As long as there are Orks on Armageddon that know about One-Eye Yarrick, da 'umie that just won't die, he'll be fine. At least when it comes to natural death.

That's not how Ork resonance works. It's an internet meme, not something the fluff actually supports.

 

On topic, I said my piece, but I wanted to offer alternatives. Prior to the "story progreasion" of 8th, I was always disappointed GW didn't do campaign books for stories at some point prior to the 41st millennia. I would have liked to see snapshots of other periods of 40k, like the Forgeworld Badab War, where a bunch of characters could have been made and played in games.

[b1soul]

Another exceptionally powerful CSM Lord could replace Abaddon...someone like Huron Blackheart. I don't think it would change the setting fundamentally.

 

I do think Abaddon is a more prominent figure on the Chaos side than Calgar is on the Imperial side. Abaddon's status is comparable to Lord Commander of the Imperium. Calgar is just a First Founding chapter master.

[Lucerne]

Another exceptionally powerful CSM Lord could replace Abaddon...someone like Huron Blackheart. I don't think it would change the setting fundamentally.

 

I do think Abaddon is a more prominent figure on the Chaos side than Calgar is on the Imperial side. Abaddon's status is comparable to Lord Commander of the Imperium. Calgar is just a First Founding chapter master.

Changes the vibe from "ancient Legionaires" to "ragtag renegades". They tried that in 4e, and it went over like a lead balloon to the point where I'm surprised we still have the Red Corsairs given how badly that shift went over.