Character Deaths

[b1soul]

Maybe...but what if it's not a "thin-blood" like Huron, but some powerful Black Legion lord right under Abaddon, another veteran of the Heresy and the Long War? I don't think it would radically alter the setting.

[Lucerne]

Maybe...but what if it's not a "thin-blood" like Huron, but some powerful Black Legion lord right under Abaddon, another veteran of the Heresy and the Long War? I don't think it would radically alter the setting.

Well then you lose the Lucifer analogue with an iconic design and narrative niche of "the bitter son trying to outdo the father". It'd still work, sure, but given there's literal divine intervention keeping Abaddon as Horus 2.0, it's clear why it hasn't happened for him. The Chaos Marine faction, ironically, is about the only one with excuses for plot armor in that its immortal characters are basically that in-setting: either chosen champions of their gods or a mad scientist with a thing for cloning. Any other named CSM character- looking at you, Shontou- tends not to last long without those things.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Ugolino

[b1soul]

What could be more Grimdark than revealing that all this time, Abaddon was just another expendable pawn of Chaos (like his Father), who foolishly thought he could enjoy the blessings of Chaos but retain autonomy? Next in line, rinse and repeat...

[Ishagu]

Nothing has justified Abaddon's immunity to the subverting powers of Chaos, so I would be perfectly OK with that.

[Marshal Rohr]

What could be more Grimdark than revealing that all this time, Abaddon was just another expendable pawn of Chaos (like his Father), who foolishly thought he could enjoy the blessings of Chaos but retain autonomy? Next in line, rinse and repeat...

‘What could be more Grimdark than revealing that all this time Satan wasn’t real?’

 

He is the big bad of the setting. His struggle to retain control while Chaos lavishes him with more power is the key to his narrative. I don’t know how people still aren’t getting that two books into the Black Legion series.

 

As for timelines and characters: I think the issue for many is they want the rules that come with a special character like Calgar or Tigurius for their army and feel like they have to make that army in the present to get that. If that’s the case there no reason not to scratchbuild a cool character model with the same weapons and just say it’s the same character rulewise, but in the lore it the Ultras chapter master from M37 when your army is set. Most have relic weapons passed from Master to Master so it totally works.

[Morovir]

Huron is hardly a threatening character - in the Death Guard codex, Typhus duels and humbles him, leaving him alive only to show him Nurgle's might and generosity.

[Jackalwolf]

Please yes. I'll happily sacrifice some of my own space wolves to see it happen. Narrative means little without consequences.

 

And as some others mention, the characters could still be in the codex for play

[Lucerne]

Huron is hardly a threatening character - in the Death Guard codex, Typhus duels and humbles him, leaving him alive only to show him Nurgle's might and generosity.

And Typhus is almost literally death on legs so that's a fairly sensible outcome.

 

Huron is the chief example of what a renegade Marine can do for himself- he started with a full on rebellion at Badab and came back from death to become a threat to the first founding chapters like the Scars and Wolves, humiliated the Silver Skulls and Marines Errant, stomped the Grey Knights and is basically able to almost dictate terms to warlords of the old Legions. One of his minions caged Guilliman and stole his flagship after trouncing the Avenging Beancounter in battle.

 

He's not the main poster child and figurehead of the CSM, and for good reason, but he's an excellent secondary archetype with a good story arc and narrative role that it'd be hard to do justice to with a rehash of his concept.

 

 

What could be more Grimdark than revealing that all this time, Abaddon was just another expendable pawn of Chaos (like his Father), who foolishly thought he could enjoy the blessings of Chaos but retain autonomy? Next in line, rinse and repeat...

The point being that it'd be shafting Chaos of their Lucifer/CSM archetype. There's a reason Abaddon was remade and not replaced by BIG EXPENSIVE SHOUTY DAEMON- a CSM army should be led by a CSM and no character in that faction has Abaddon's history and narrative role.

 

To put it bluntly, Abaddon matters as a character and has far more of a story role far more than "generic marine #23425252 who just happens to be the bestest or have this fancy crest"

Edited September 14, 2019 by Ugolino

[Lexington]

Another exceptionally powerful CSM Lord could replace Abaddon...someone like Huron Blackheart. I don't think it would change the setting fundamentally.

I think it’d just be the logical culmination of a lot of changes that have already occurred, actually.

 

I said in another thread (to a lot of people’s consternation) that 40K’s story essentially ended with the Gathering Storm, and agree with that it not, it’s obvious that it fundamentally changed something with 40K as a narrative. Not just in its material effects on the setting, but in the basic narrative mode of the universe.

 

Before the Gathering Storm, 40K was a place set just previous to it’s narrative apotheosis, and Abaddon was the engine of that apotheosis. Post-GS, we don’t really have that central tension anymore, as the setting breaks down into individual plot threads that wander around and occasionally bump into each other. Within Chaos, the god-aligned Legions are now much more identified as separate factions aligned around their returned Primarchs and their petty vengeance quests rather than something singularly coherent being led by Abaddon.

 

Heck, speaking of Big A, does the guy even have a plan anymore? After the 13th Crusade and the Rift opening, he seems to have lost focus, just a Big Bad who used to be something more. He’s been diminished alongside 40K as a setting, and doesn’t seem to have much use anymore.

[b1soul]

Removing Abaddon is not the "Satan" of the setting. Abaddon does rule Hell. The Four rule Hell.

 

Removing Abaddon is not shafting Chaos. If anything, it shows that mortals foolish enough to think they can leverage Chaos without being dominated eventually end up being dominated or discarded. This is perfectly in line with Grimdark and the concept that mortals are merely shadows dancing to the devil's tune.

[b1soul]

Sorry, typing on mobile and can't edit.

 

Abaddon is not the "Satan" of the setting. Abaddon does not rule Hell. The Four rule Hell. Chaos is the big bad ultimate boss, not Abaddon.

 

Removing Abaddon is not shafting Chaos. If anything, it shows that mortals foolish enough to think they can leverage Chaos without being dominated eventually end up being dominated or discarded. This is perfectly in line with Grimdark and the concept that mortals are merely shadows dancing to the devil's tune.

[Marshal Rohr]

The IP managers disagree with you

[Felix Antipodes]

The human end of the Imperium needs a cleanout and new characters introduced to reflect the 200 odd year jump in the setting.

 

WRT the 'firstborn', I believe there should be some new faces should be added to all the main Chapters, whether GW or FW faves, to reflect losses over the years. Especially in the major chaos during the formation of the Great Rift when over half of the known Chapters were listed as unheard from (probably the ones located on the other side of the Rift.

How they met their fate in battle, swallowed by the Rift, lost in the Warp or indeed attempting the Calgarian Rites, shouldn't matter. Those still around should now be portrayed as grizzled vets.

 

They recently released book 'Lions of Macragge' detailed the fate of the UM 2nd Company after their ship was lost in the Warp and it really cleaned house in various ways both heroic and mundane so it has already started in a way.

 

I can't see any character that already has a model not being upgraded to a Primaris variant unless the old one no longer shifts sufficient numbers.

[MadGreek]

Please yes. I'll happily sacrifice some of my own space wolves to see it happen. Narrative means little without consequences.

 

And as some others mention, the characters could still be in the codex for play

This is what they did with Tycho. The Codex has him as Captain and Tycho the Fallen, but also details how he ultimately died. He is still usable in games if you wish, but also dead in the narrative. The Codex specifies only one can be used in a game, I just wish it had said no Tycho can be used in an army that contains Primaris, since that would make no narrative sense either.

[b1soul]

The IP managers disagree with you

 

How is Abaddon Satan when there's the Primordial Annihilator? Abaddon is a tool of Chaos who fancies himself the tool-wielder.  

[Ishagu]

The one thing I don't believe for one second is that the Chaos Gods "Need" Abaddon.

 

They have brought Empires to their knees and wounded the Imperium more without him than he's ever managed to.

[Trevak Dal]

Khârn vs Lucius diorama would be pretty cool. The whip snapped around Khârn's pistol arm, dragging him forward to be stabbed, but Khârn is bringing Gorechild in for a head chop.

 

I think there was a Highlander episode or maybe Movie where two immortals took eachother out...

 

But I imagine both would just *gasp* and get back up/respawn.

[chapter master 454]

Would certainly enjoy Lucius Vs. Khârn because then Khorne would get involved with Slannesh's silliness. Maybe it makes the ultimate hybrid, a slaughter machine with insatiable bloodlust and desire who can never die with both personalities vying for supremacy, because Khârn wouldn't just be subsumed by lucius, too much of a murder machine for that.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

The IP managers disagree with you

 

How is Abaddon Satan when there's the Primordial Annihilator? Abaddon is a tool of Chaos who fancies himself the tool-wielder.  

 

 

How is there a Satan when there is a God? You're projecting your bias. The IP Managers say you are wrong. So you are wrong. 

[Acebaur]

Alright guys, lets play nice and be respectful of others

[Wulf Vengis]

Isn't the primordial annihilator just the name of the chaos gods unified into one all powerful warp being? A being that has been hinted at in the fluff as slowly awakening with the big 4 being the first aspects of its ending slumber?

[Panzer]

If models are irrelevant and you can use them after death, why even do it? It's hollow and pointless.

 

You know, Ishagu, I'm usually not against what you say but ... sometimes you should just stop talking and think for a moment what you were going to say.

 

Who says you have to play 40k at the 'presen't of the most up to date timeline? Why release campaign books with scenarios and stuff if that were the case? 40k has ever, is and will forever be a game where the players, if they care about the narrative, can pick any time in the history of the 40k to play their game in. And in that time characters that are now dead might still be alive.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Huron is hardly a threatening character - in the Death Guard codex, Typhus duels and humbles him, leaving him alive only to show him Nurgle's might and generosity.

And Abby was punked by Eldrad at one point and had to flee with his tail between his legs, having narrowly avoided having his face impaled on Eldrad's staff. So Abby is clearly not a threatening character either.

 

 

How is there a Satan when there is a God? You're projecting your bias. The IP Managers say you are wrong. So you are wrong. 

 

Because 40k doesn't perfectly mirror Christian theology? Satan is generally portrayed as the great adversary to God. So in a 40k context where God=Empy, that would indeed make 'Satan' the 4 Ruinous Powers, not some dude with a sword.

 

While I'm not exactly 100% on my 'Christian Apocalypse' mythology, he seems to be more the AntiChrist Archetype. The herald of evil who brings about the apocalypse and leads evil's fight on the material plane.

 

If there is a non-God 'Satan' of 40k, seems to me it was Horus (though imo he'd be another 'antichrist'). The most favoured servant of the 'Big Good', rebels against his creator due to pride and being unwilling to serve, turns a bunch of his peers to his side as part of the rebellion etc. And what happened to him? Stone Dead. So yeah, if 40k could successfully pull of killing 'Satan' once, they could definitely do it again.

 

Actually charting the rise of a true rival and eventual successor to Abby could be a really cool story. It could also tie in well with some of the stuff ADB posted about Abby back in the day:

 

"His enemies circle, material and immaterial, sensing potential weakness. His allies start to disappear. For a while the Chaos Powers are disinterested, choosing to split, becoming self-serving once more, raising up their champions, sometimes alone, sometimes together, hoping that these mortals will rival Abaddon. Yet they never do.

And he wonders if it is vanity. He wonders if he is deserving. He wonders if what he wants is possible."

 

All this requires to change is instead of 'yet they never do', one does. And imo that'd be plenty Grimdark. A true reflection of the 'you don't matter, everyone can be replaced, you won't be missed' underpinnings, rather than just 'it sucks to be Imperial'. Even the big scary Dark Messiah of the setting can be overshadowed and replaced, and all the while, the Thirsting Gods keep laughing.

[Morovir]

 

And Abby was punked by Eldrad at one point and had to flee with his tail between his legs, having narrowly avoided having his face impaled on Eldrad's staff. So Abby is clearly not a threatening character either.

 

 

The difference is that one was mentioned in a White Dwarf 17 years ago and was written as an epilogue for a battle report featured in the issue, in which Eldrad and his Seer Council took out Abaddon and his terminator retinue, and which has never been mentioned in another source to my knowledge, whereas the other is a piece of lore mentioned in a codex from this edition, and is thus far more relevant and provides greater insight into who the designers want to see as a credible threat.

 

(White Dwarf 266 for reference)

Edited September 16, 2019 by Morovir

[Ishagu]

 

 

If models are irrelevant and you can use them after death, why even do it? It's hollow and pointless.

You know, Ishagu, I'm usually not against what you say but ... sometimes you should just stop talking and think for a moment what you were going to say.

 

Who says you have to play 40k at the 'presen't of the most up to date timeline? Why release campaign books with scenarios and stuff if that were the case? 40k has ever, is and will forever be a game where the players, if they care about the narrative, can pick any time in the history of the 40k to play their game in. And in that time characters that are now dead might still be alive.

No I completely understand that, but 40k is now a moving narrative as opposed to a setting.

 

Rules for old models should exist, but perhaps in the "Legends" supplement that GW alluded to.

 

People were upset that some things weren't done in the recent campaign, namely the death of famous characters. To make that TRULY impactful perhaps the tabletop should follow.