Character Deaths

[helterskelter]

A bad guy competition might upgrade things a touch, don't kill Abby but have a warlord from an unknown place proceed to stomp abaddons opponent, or kill a known hero, say a larger secondary like Sicarius, then proceed to utterly demolish Abaddon so he has to come back stronger, more threatening, and whilst this separates chaos into 2 greater factions, it would allow Abaddon to increase his threat/victory tally in his attempt to reassert his dominance, and introduce a new chaos "big bad", possibly significantly more devout.

[bluntblade]

You could potentially achieve this by bolstering each Chosen of the Pantheon.

[Lexington]

I really don’t understand why people think Abaddon needs some kind of redemption or power-up. Dude just blew up Cadia, and sliced the galaxy in two with an enormous warp storm. What more do you want from a guy?

[Wulf Vengis]

I'm not saying Abaddon (or any other specific named/playable character) needs to die. Personally i like his poetic imprisonment within his own ambition spiel. I just think GW shouldn't be afraid pull that trigger. If they want a character dead for some reason they should "JUST DO IT". It can be done well, it can be done tastefully and it can be done in a war that doesn't need to effect the game in such a way as to upset the players.

 

(Since he's out guinea pig already.)

Kill Abaddon in the story, bring him back (or don't). His rules remain in the Codex, maybe they go to the legends list after a couple of years time. By then people have started to sway into this new character. Maybe over that couple of years a few campaign narratives occur and we see this chaos champion guy get buffs with each new installment and his narrative has him becoming a power to rival Abaddons.

 

Maybe we see a nerfing of Abaddon over a course of campaigns that gives us reason to believe in this new character.

 

Maybe tis doesn't fly well with customers and Abaddon climbs the tower of power again both in story and on the tabletop.

 

(Existential realization: WE are the laughing gods playing this game and GW are our bards distracting us with their stories. They themselves trapped because if we lose interest they lose money.)

Edited September 17, 2019 by Wulf Vengis

[Lord Blackwood]

I just remembered we lost a handful of wolf lords during the wulfen and warzone fenris stuff did we not ? 

The Ironwolf for sure died 
I think we also lost the Fire howlers wolf lord 

I think  Logan  should probably go next , him  and Arjac  

This could be used to push the Ragnar Narrative forward 

I also would not be upset if Krom Dragongaze died but thats a personal bias. 

I think there is a lot you could do with space wolves in terms of advancing their plot through trimming their characters a bit. 

I would reckon Ulrik the Slayer would't die because hes going to push the others into  picking Ragnar who will  cross  over to becoming a Primaris 

It just makes a lot of narrative sense to make the young wolf the Great Wolf 

Imperial Knights have no real characters save Hekthur who just showed up and is a freeblade.  ( The two cool novels not withstanding in  which there is  a lot of death ) 

As far as the Templar's go , I think Helbrecht is pretty under developed and I  would be curious to see if maybe he took  an  L   so that the spotlight landed firmly on  Grimmaldus who was a sword brother before he was a chaplain , whos to say he cant be a chapter master ?  

Just bouncing my thoughts around is all. 

[Volt]

I really don’t understand why people think Abaddon needs some kind of redemption or power-up. Dude just blew up Cadia, and sliced the galaxy in two with an enormous warp storm. What more do you want from a guy?

Neither of those had any impact on the setting in a way that mattered. Cadians survived and if anything will be more populous now due to Cadian successor colonies and the Imperium crosses over into Impeirum Nihilus with such frequency that one wonders if the great rift has had any narrative impact besides allowing chaos raids to now happen in Segmentum Solar. The setting has fundamentally changed little by the actions of Abaddon; at best the window dressings were swapped out. The Imperium hasn't suffered anything meaningful, it trudges onward business as usual, while even getting stronger now with the Space Marines being stronger than ever before. With the rise of the Primarchs, Abaddon is just once more a little First Captain following in the shadows of living gods.

[MegaVolt87]

Rivals to Abaddon already exist- the surviving chaos primarchs. Even he can't boss them around, they were the first anointed and favored, He even goes out of his way to make pacts with them. He knows he can't antagonize/ bully them but he does that to their sons instead. Abaddon is a brute but he isn't stupid. 

[Marshal Rohr]

He has already bossed around one we know of and his arc is going to take him into contact with more.

[Slave to Darkness]

A grim-dark end to Abaddon would be having him in a corner, about to lose his life, then have him accept chaos into his soul so he doesn't die only to become another puppet who meets his end shortly after.

That I could get behind. 

[Lucerne]

You're barking up the wrong tree.

 

 

I say they kill off Guilliman. Let Abby do it- or better yet, Lorgar.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Ugolino

[Slave to Darkness]

You're barking up the wrong tree.

 

 

I say they kill off Guilliman. Let Abby do it- or better yet, Lorgar.

Kor Phaeron, he nearly did it without 10000+ of warp kool-aid, would be funny to see Guilliman get his throat torn out again by an old man. 

[Lexington]

Neither of those had any impact on the setting in a way that mattered.

I’m not blind to what you’re getting at, here, but this sentiment is still in desperate need of context. Abaddon’s actions were very impactful to the billions and billions and billions of human beings who are now left defenseless and triaged in the face of an enormous incursion of Chaos forces. The Imperium effectively lost halfway of its territory, military might and overall resources, largely due to Abaddon’s actions. It’s the largest and most devastating thing to happen to the Imperium of Man in its history, period, including the Horus Heresy. Abaddon’s done more than every fallen Primarch and every piddly Black Crusade in the ten thousand-year span of Imperial history, combined. He’s the single most consequential human being, likely, in the known history of 40K, and what he’s done has caused an incalculable amount of human suffering and agony.

 

The problem is, that’s the background noise of the 8th Ed storyline. Not it’s focus. 8th skipped the part where we actually experience the horror of the Rift occurring and shredding the galactic leviathan of the Imperium, instead opting to go straight to the Imperium’s attempt to strike back at that. So it doesn’t actually feel very consequential at all.

 

Like, you can say that’s the problem, and I wouldn’t disagree, but it’s one symptom of the larger disease - everything feels inconsequential these days. 40K is Bad now. It’s dumb nonsense fodder that apes the incredibly dull, unsatisfying output of the modern franchise factory farms. It’s an eternal wrestling match between IP-locked idiots across a setting that used to matter, have weight and consequence, and gave all that up for repeated quick infusions of cash via the eternally unfulfilled promise that the next thing will really be important this time. It sucks, totally, and I agree, but no amount of killing and replacing Abaddon is going to fix that.

[PeteySödes]

I wish I had at least 763 more likes for that Lex.

[MegaVolt87]

I hear you Lexington, its like we went straight from SW A new Hope to return of the Jedi, missing the Empire strikes back that would make the Rebel battles/ attacks seem more inconsequential as a comparison to how 40k is these days.  

[TorvaldTheMild]

Well we chaos fans are pretty safe, even if our characters die they'll probably become a daemon prince, but I'd hate it if Khârn died and became a daemon prince, also its a bit unfair for chaos characters to die, since we only really have one per legion, so I think whatever character has to die, the army should have multiple characters.  I mean I wouldn't be bummed out if Haarken died.  As for other armies, I think Dante should probably die as a) he's ancient and b) it would be a very cool story if he went up against Abaddon and Abaddon killed him, as it would mirror Sanguinius vs Horus.  Or even Dante could kill Abaddon and fabuis could perfect cloning and bring back Horus, though he has no memories and he isn't an agent of chaos anymore and then we could see his story and see whether he turns to Chaos again.  Because you could have him back to his Luna Wolf self but he learns of all the damage he's done to the Imperium and finds out he is the cause of all the :cuss and then turns to Chaos because of the shame etc.

[Ishagu]

@ Lexington

 

But what are you asking for? Do you just want page after page of tales about the suffering and slaughter of innocents on random planets?

 

Also keep in mind that 40k has always been dumb and silly. You can cherry pick any random bits from any edition to criticise.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Neither of those had any impact on the setting in a way that mattered.

I’m not blind to what you’re getting at, here, but this sentiment is still in desperate need of context. Abaddon’s actions were very impactful to the billions and billions and billions of human beings who are now left defenseless and triaged in the face of an enormous incursion of Chaos forces. The Imperium effectively lost halfway of its territory, military might and overall resources, largely due to Abaddon’s actions. It’s the largest and most devastating thing to happen to the Imperium of Man in its history, period, including the Horus Heresy. Abaddon’s done more than every fallen Primarch and every piddly Black Crusade in the ten thousand-year span of Imperial history, combined. He’s the single most consequential human being, likely, in the known history of 40K, and what he’s done has caused an incalculable amount of human suffering and agony.

 

The problem is, that’s the background noise of the 8th Ed storyline. Not it’s focus. 8th skipped the part where we actually experience the horror of the Rift occurring and shredding the galactic leviathan of the Imperium, instead opting to go straight to the Imperium’s attempt to strike back at that. So it doesn’t actually feel very consequential at all.

 

Like, you can say that’s the problem, and I wouldn’t disagree, but it’s one symptom of the larger disease - everything feels inconsequential these days. 40K is Bad now. It’s dumb nonsense fodder that apes the incredibly dull, unsatisfying output of the modern franchise factory farms. It’s an eternal wrestling match between IP-locked idiots across a setting that used to matter, have weight and consequence, and gave all that up for repeated quick infusions of cash via the eternally unfulfilled promise that the next thing will really be important this time. It sucks, totally, and I agree, but no amount of killing and replacing Abaddon is going to fix that.

 

 

Well said!

[b1soul]

I am not even arguing that Abaddon should die.

 

I am saying Abaddon's death (dying honorless, weeping, ashamed like his weakling father) would be perfectly in line with the theme of 40K. Everyone is an inconsequential, expendable shadow in the end, and the eternal truth is Chaos and unending strife. It wouldn't break the setting at all, no more than Calgar's death. The elimination of Chaos would break the setting.

[apologist]

@ Lexington

But what are you asking for? Do you just want page after page of tales about the suffering and slaughter of innocents on random planets?

Also keep in mind that 40k has always been dumb and silly. You can cherry pick any random bits from any edition to criticise.

 

Not addressed to me, I recognise; but what I'd like to see is less narrative spotlight on GW's characters, and redrawing the focus of the game to encourage players to create and explore their own characters.

 

Less Warmachine-style 'play with our guys in our exhaustively-mapped continent' and more D&D style 'make up your own worlds and explore them through your own lens'.

 

At root, let GW's chapters, craftworlds, dynasties, regiments, hivefleets etc. go back to what they once were: simple examples of how you might choose to paint your own, personal – unique – army... and let their cast of characters return to being archetypal or exceptional examples for you to use as a starting point to making your own.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Apologist

[Ishagu]

GW has expanded it's IP and model line significantly since the days of 3rd and 4th edition.

 

You can still create your own heroes, chapters, planets and stories - that never went away.

 

As it becomes more and more detailed, a by product of the growth, expansions, black library, video games, etc some of the mysticism was going to be lost.

[FlamingDeth]

Ishagu, I feel you're being deliberately obtuse here in your GW apologetics. You know the old writing addage if, "Show, don't tell?" We'll, we're told that half the imperium is cut off, there are devastating losses, and things are terrible for the Imperium, but what we're shown is newer, fancier super soldiers kicking butt everywhere all the time and people crossing the rift with impunity. You can show the bad side without a whole book of people being tortured by demons (or whatever.)

[apologist]

GW has expanded it's IP and model line significantly since the days of 3rd and 4th edition.

 

You can still create your own heroes, chapters, planets and stories - that never went away.

 

As it becomes more and more detailed, a by product of the growth, expansions, black library, video games, etc some of the mysticism was going to be lost.

 

See, I disagree with that fundamentally. If the model line seems expanded, that's – paradoxically – owing to a narrowing of focus. Currently, there is typically one 'Leader' model for each faction – one Space Marine Captain, one Farseer, one Ork Warboss – where in the past there were multiplehttp:// [url=http://www.solegends.com/citcat1993usd40k/c1993uscfbp0026-02.htmoptions, or by the dawn of 3rd/4th, multipart kits to create your own. 

 

Even as those multipart kits were rolled out, however, the Codices grew increasingly prescriptive: the Chapter Master of the Blood Angels was Dante, for example – with no option to create your own Blood Angels Chapter Master; both explicitly removing the option and simultaneously softly discouraging individualisation. In choosing to bring example Chapters (etc.) into closer focus – explicitly intended to provide players with inspiration to personalise their own armies – the result was that many players simply went with the easy option. I include myself here – but I think it's a real shame that, as a kid, I got the impression that you were meant to paint the models in a particular way, rather than doing so simply being an option.

 

Now, I don't want to be a grognard – I very much understand the appeal of lore-diving and doing 'future-historical accuracy' – but I think it's undeniable there's been a fundamental shift of tone and emphasis from Rogue Trader's 'it's a big galaxy – go have fun getting lost' to the new edition's 'follow the unfolding adventures of our stable of characters'.

 

+++

Certainly you can still create your own heroes etc.; but GW's support very much encourages players – particularly new players – to latch onto easy-to-grasp characters. I think that's a real missed opportunity for them, and actually uncharacteristic of the way modern GW works: in the same way that GW managed to square the circle of 'competitive versus casual' with Three Ways to Play; I'm surprised they haven't done something similar with the continuum between what are effectively historical collectors (those of us sticking to GW's characters, setting and general script) and more freeform, creative gamers.

[Tyriks]

It also doesn't help that making your own character often means nothing more than giving them a name. Many named characters will always be strictly better on the table than making up your own, in effect punishing you for not using their guys.

[Ishagu]

Ishagu, I feel you're being deliberately obtuse here in your GW apologetics. You know the old writing addage if, "Show, don't tell?" We'll, we're told that half the imperium is cut off, there are devastating losses, and things are terrible for the Imperium, but what we're shown is newer, fancier super soldiers kicking butt everywhere all the time and people crossing the rift with impunity. You can show the bad side without a whole book of people being tortured by demons (or whatever.)

Read Spears of the Emperor and the Celestine book.

 

Trust me, there is plenty of suffering and the Dark Imperium is a real problem for humanity in the setting.

 

---

 

As for creating a custom character - going off the new Astartes codex you can make some very powerful custom heroes - In some cases better than the named characters.

 

And there definitely is more unit variety across the factions. Perhaps not in numbers of generic HQs equipped the same way but the sheer size of the catalogue is massive compared to 15 years ago.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Ishagu

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

GW has expanded it's IP and model line significantly since the days of 3rd and 4th edition.

 

You can still create your own heroes, chapters, planets and stories - that never went away.

 

As it becomes more and more detailed, a by product of the growth, expansions, black library, video games, etc some of the mysticism was going to be lost.

See, I disagree with that fundamentally. If the model line seems expanded, that's – paradoxically – owing to a narrowing of focus. Currently, there is typically one 'Leader' model for each faction – one Space Marine Captain, one Farseer, one Ork Warboss – where in the past there were multiple [url=http://www.solegends.com/citcat1993usd40k/c1993uscfbp0026-02.htmoptions, or by the dawn of 3rd/4th, multipart kits to create your own.

 

Even as those multipart kits were rolled out, however, the Codices grew increasingly prescriptive: the Chapter Master of the Blood Angels was Dante, for example – with no option to create your own Blood Angels Chapter Master; both explicitly removing the option and simultaneously softly discouraging individualisation. In choosing to bring example Chapters (etc.) into closer focus – explicitly intended to provide players with inspiration to personalise their own armies – the result was that many players simply went with the easy option. I include myself here – but I think it's a real shame that, as a kid, I got the impression that you were meant to paint the models in a particular way, rather than doing so simply being an option.

 

Now, I don't want to be a grognard – I very much understand the appeal of lore-diving and doing 'future-historical accuracy' – but I think it's undeniable there's been a fundamental shift of tone and emphasis from Rogue Trader's 'it's a big galaxy – go have fun getting lost' to the new edition's 'follow the unfolding adventures of our stable of characters'.

 

+++

Certainly you can still create your own heroes etc.; but GW's support very much encourages players – particularly new players – to latch onto easy-to-grasp characters. I think that's a real missed opportunity for them, and actually uncharacteristic of the way modern GW works: in the same way that GW managed to square the circle of 'competitive versus casual' with Three Ways to Play; I'm surprised they haven't done something similar with the continuum between what are effectively historical collectors (those of us sticking to GW's characters, setting and general script) and more freeform, creative gamers.

Excellent point about Dante. It was great to see an alternative in Malakim Phoros and Seth even if it did address the underlying issue of lack of choices. This is really why they need to return to Army Lists. Character deaths wouldn’t be as significant and players would be encouraged to make their own commanders.