Character Deaths

[bluntblade]

 

@ Lexington

But what are you asking for? Do you just want page after page of tales about the suffering and slaughter of innocents on random planets?

Also keep in mind that 40k has always been dumb and silly. You can cherry pick any random bits from any edition to criticise.

 

Not addressed to me, I recognise; but what I'd like to see is less narrative spotlight on GW's characters, and redrawing the focus of the game to encourage players to create and explore their own characters.

 

Less Warmachine-style 'play with our guys in our exhaustively-mapped continent' and more D&D style 'make up your own worlds and explore them through your own lens'.

 

At root, let GW's chapters, craftworlds, dynasties, regiments, hivefleets etc. go back to what they once were: simple examples of how you might choose to paint your own, personal – unique – army... and let their cast of characters return to being archetypal or exceptional examples for you to use as a starting point to making your own.

 

 

I'd advocate doing a solid round of campaigns and such focusing on the havoc created by Chaos. Heck, use it to spotlight some neglected Chapters as they fight to stem the tide, introduce the heroes of the new generation as older ones fall to Abaddon and co...

[Evil Eye]

I think character deaths should happen occasionally. Not too often, but more than the "Characters duel to the death except not really" standard we have now. This includes characters with models, and I don't think those characters need to be "squatted" and rendered unplayable. If you look at WHFB, there were plenty of characters with models and rules who were dead at the "present" of the Old World. Heck, Azhag the Slaughterer got a big £50 metal model long after his canonical death, because he was a cool character with a great story that people would want to retell through games. Likewise, whilst his model was rather old by that point, I remember Gorthor the Beastlord getting a rather interesting WD article shortly after the Beastmen army book was released. And in the case of 40K of course, Erasmus Tycho was created and killed off BEFORE he got a model and rules! The "fictional historical" nature of the game means that long dead characters should still be represented in some form in the game, at least IMO, and killing off a character doesn't mean that they need to be retired from shelves and rules.

 

Honestly there's a few characters I'd like to die, not because I dislike them at all but because I think it would either A: make the storyline more interesting (the point about Calgar dying was a good one) and B: for axed characters unlikely to return, if they had a well written demise it would make for nice closure. Like, Wazdakka Gutsmek is sadly unlikely to return, but well written fluff where he goes out in a final blaze of glory would be a decent sendoff. As far as characters with models (though I would like a newer, more in scale one) I'd actually kinda like to see Huron Blackheart meet his end. Perhaps make a mini-campaign called "Turmoil in the Maelstrom" where the Red Corsairs and their many piratical allies fall upon each other in civil war (with new characters and a new model for Huron himself) and depending on the outcome Huron either finally runs out of luck, or alternatively emerges stronger than ever before.

But yeah, I wish GW would stop shying away from character deaths, and also get it into their heads that dead characters aren't unsellable. Sanguinius sold pretty well after all and his death is one of 40K's defining moments.

[Slave to Darkness]

Back in 1st ed when GW did rules for Yarrick and Ghaz they said they were to give a bit of 'flavour' to the army, is archetype the right word?? Character 'x' isnt the be all and end all of the army. I say feel free to kill off any characters, doesnt mean Calgar cant get replaced by another chapter master with two funky mittens, Dante could be replaced by any shmo with a jump pack. Hell Tycho is already dead, Sgt Naman... Boom, blown up by an exploding Ork Dread, Brother Bethor, he got written out of the lore, Doomrider may as well be dead, I cant use the mini any more as intended (yea sure use him as a lord or champ on a bike I hear you say... but you can do that with any other special character). 

 

I wouldnt shed a tear if GW killed off every named character, at least I wouldnt be facing the same characters every time I play a game. Or at least go back to opponents permission... 

[Fajita Fan]

I'm all for characters dying to advance a *well written* story (note the bolded emphasis) but any character who had a model or rules whom players may have lovingly converted should always stay in the codices and still be playable.  There's no reason to make characters unplayable since the entire HH is still playable...

[Marshal Reinhard]

Why is Shadowsun even still alive anyway?

[Panzer]

Why is Shadowsun even still alive anyway?

 

Shadowsun and Kais get put into stasis for most of the time and only are active during bigger campaigns.

Farsight and friends all have some form of immortality/life support/successor thing going on.

Aun'Va is already dead and only exist as a hologram for propaganda reasons (can't have your big leader get killed like a chump while defending one of your planets).

There's no excuse for characters like Darkstrider, Longstrike and the other Ethereals though.

[Guest Triszin]

There's also the cloning thing.

 

Kai's is getting cloned I think now, and Tau are lore progressing towards, they clone their heroes.

 

Which I kinda don't mind, you can kill off some clones, and it's lining up an artificial wall the Tau are making for themselves

[Panzer]

Cloning? Is that some weird thing Kelly introduced in one of his crappy novels again?

[Guest Triszin]

Yaaaaaa..........

 

I'll have to go back and read it again,but I'm like 90% it's cloning

[Antarius]

I'm really torn on newer 40K lore. On the one hand, it just doesn't really grab me at all and I find the writing rather stale (although my glasses might be sligtly rosetinted when it comes to the quality of the older fluff, I'll freely admit). On the other hand, I guess lots of people really DID want them to advance the storyline and I do think there are some genuinely cool ideas in there (even if it's more in theory than practice).

While I saw the problems with the "setting, not storyline" approach, I was personally much happier with the pre-Gathering Storm 40K setting. That being said, I think we have to acknowledge that thy actually DID make a go of making some pretty big changes when they advanced the storyline: Cadia went boom, the Imperium was torn in two and the map of the galaxy redrawn, Guilliman returned, Cypher finally got to Earth (and inexplicably did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING when he got there, what the heck?!?!), something happened with Fenris(?), Daemon Primarchs returned fully to realspace, we got a completely new range of technological discoveries including Supermarines as well as (apparently) an Imperium that's actually producing genuinely New Stuff™.
I mean, credit where it's due, even if I *personally* don't like the new fluff, they didn't exactly play it safe (the reactions to Guilliman and Primaris should tell you as much, if nothing else does).

The problem is, of course, that 40K STILL has to be first and foremost a setting for a wargame where everyone can play everyone all the time. So now that the storyline is advanced we're just stuck at 0,5 minutes to (past?) midnight, rather than 2 minutes. And that's why you have people complaining about lack of meaningful change, lots of duels to the death-but not really, and campaigns that don't really go anywhere.
Part of this is just the nature of the beast (wargame setting) and part of it is actually due to us fans. People moan every time they show blue marines on a box, can you imagine what would happen if a named non-Ultramarine was killed off?
I don't think it's a circle that can be easily squared, if it can be done at all.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Antarius

[Son of Sacrifice]

I didn't want the storyline to advance quite so fast. I would have been happy to spend a couple of years in the gathering storm timeline.

[Antarius]

I didn't want the storyline to advance quite so fast. I would have been happy to spend a couple of years in the gathering storm timeline.

Yeah, I think that would definitely have been much better. I also think it would be super hard in practice, but from a storytelling point of view, it would have felt more impactful and "real".

 

Edit: also, let's face it, Gathering Storm was when they should have killed off a whole bunch of named dudes to really hammer the point home (and avoid the weird "everything changed and a hundred years went by, but everything's still the same and everyone's still around" feel of the current setting).

Edited January 5, 2020 by Antarius

[Claws and Effect]

I'm good with most character deaths, as long as it doesn't make said character unplayable in games. Not everyone wants to play in the "current" timeline all the time.

 

I mean, it's been a couple hundred years at this point, so most purely human characters should be dead or so old they can't take part in battle anymore. Except Yarrick, he gets a pass because being immortal because the Orks think so is just cool.

 

Same with the Tau. Everyone but Shadowsun, Farsight, and the one Ethereal should be long dead by now.

 

Marines might be functionally immortal, but you've got to think some of them would have fallen in battle by now.

 

It does take away from stories a bit when you know that no one important is going to die because they have other stuff to get to. Especially in the Heresy novels. We know pretty much who lives and who dies at this point, so putting them in "danger" feels contrived unless the author is really good at their craft.

[Ishagu]

So who should die and why?

[Lexington]

So who should die and why?

 

This would've been a good question for the Studio to have asked before vaulting the timeline forward by a couple of human lifetimes, but...well, like a lot of the Dark Imperium, not a lot seems to have been thought out, so much as simply tossed out because "kewl."

[Fajita Fan]

So who should die and why?

Guilliman. Ain't no reason to have a loyal primarch strolling around 40k.

[Claws and Effect]

So who should die and why?

Sicarius or Cassius. Just to reinforce that the Ultras plot armor is not inviolate.

 

At least 2 of the Space Wolves characters. They have half a dozen Captain equivalents and could stand to lose a couple of them in glorious fashion.

 

My wife won't like it, but probably Lemartes. He even knows himself that holding off the Black Rage can't last forever.

 

Someone or other from the Dark Angels. Don't care who or why there.

 

Helbrecht. Because finding a new High Marshal would make a hell of a story.

 

Maybe Korvydae of the Raven Guard. He lost his rules after 7th edition ended anyway. And apparently Solaq is already dead because he's nowhere to be seen in the Supplement.

 

Maybe have He'Stan die after finding an artifact and his successor's introduction can be the mission to recover it.

 

Longstrike and Darkstrider both for the Tau. There's just no lore justification for either of them to still be alive.

 

Lucius. Have him die in an artillery bombardment or something so his reincarnation trick won't work. Can't be satisfied by his death if you don't know it happened.

 

I'd say most of the Imperial Guard guys except for Yarrick. They've all WAY outlasted a Guardsman's expected lifespan anyway.

 

Have one of the Eldar Phoenix Lords armor get destroyed.

 

Generally speaking, the factions and sub factions that only have 1 character in the game should be left alone.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I know my views are somewhat contradictory on this. I, on the one hand, don't think any characters should just be killed off to satisfy a number game, but on the other hand I also think that no subfaction realistically needs more than three special characters (At the very most five? Think only Ultras and some of the big 3 top that number.) Characters shouldn't be wasted, but it would have lended much more credence to big events if character deaths actually resulted from them. Like if half the Ultra roster actually died as result of hive fleet Behemoths assault on Macragge. Or similiar.

 

Honestly GW is shooting themselves in the foot by being a bit cowardly here, people are thirsting for consequences from the big narrative events, and at the same time I doubt GW is gonna update every single one of the Ultras what, 9?, special characters, why not have someone die for a change? Make it epic, kill many birds with one stone.

[Volt]

So who should die and why?

Anybody and everybody who has completed their character arcs or is simply a waste of space. Everybody from Marneus Calgar to Bjorn is up for axing, the only person who shouldn't die is Guilliman as an unfortunately integral part of the setting now, but there is no need to grant immortality to any Imperial or Xenos character beyond a few linchpins.

 

 

 

 

So who should die and why?

Sicarius or Cassius. Just to reinforce that the Ultras plot armor is not inviolate.

 

At least 2 of the Space Wolves characters. They have half a dozen Captain equivalents and could stand to lose a couple of them in glorious fashion.

 

My wife won't like it, but probably Lemartes. He even knows himself that holding off the Black Rage can't last forever.

 

Someone or other from the Dark Angels. Don't care who or why there.

 

Helbrecht. Because finding a new High Marshal would make a hell of a story.

 

Maybe Korvydae of the Raven Guard. He lost his rules after 7th edition ended anyway. And apparently Solaq is already dead because he's nowhere to be seen in the Supplement.

 

Maybe have He'Stan die after finding an artifact and his successor's introduction can be the mission to recover it.

 

Longstrike and Darkstrider both for the Tau. There's just no lore justification for either of them to still be alive.

 

Lucius. Have him die in an artillery bombardment or something so his reincarnation trick won't work. Can't be satisfied by his death if you don't know it happened.

 

I'd say most of the Imperial Guard guys except for Yarrick. They've all WAY outlasted a Guardsman's expected lifespan anyway.

 

Have one of the Eldar Phoenix Lords armor get destroyed.

 

Generally speaking, the factions and sub factions that only have 1 character in the game should be left alone.

 

Lucius has been killed by bombardment before and it doesn't work. He is quite literally unkillable due to Slaanesh's favor.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Volt

[Knight Artorias]

I know my views are somewhat contradictory on this. I, on the one hand, don't think any characters should just be killed off to satisfy a number game, but on the other hand I also think that no subfaction realistically needs more than three special characters (At the very most five? Think only Ultras and some of the big 3 top that number.) Characters shouldn't be wasted, but it would have lended much more credence to big events if character deaths actually resulted from them. Like if half the Ultra roster actually died as result of hive fleet Behemoths assault on Macragge. Or similiar.

 

Honestly GW is shooting themselves in the foot by being a bit cowardly here, people are thirsting for consequences from the big narrative events, and at the same time I doubt GW is gonna update every single one of the Ultras what, 9?, special characters, why not have someone die for a change? Make it epic, kill many birds with one stone.

 

I hope they learn from the lukewarm (even cold) reception to the Vigilus 'outcome'. 

[Ishagu]

Anybody and everybody who has completed their character arcs or is simply a waste of space. Everybody from Marneus Calgar to Bjorn is up for axing, the only person who shouldn't die is Guilliman as an unfortunately integral part of the setting now, but there is no need to grant immortality to any Imperial or Xenos character beyond a few linchpins.

 

 

No, that's silly and serves no purpose.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

I know my views are somewhat contradictory on this. I, on the one hand, don't think any characters should just be killed off to satisfy a number game, but on the other hand I also think that no subfaction realistically needs more than three special characters (At the very most five? Think only Ultras and some of the big 3 top that number.) Characters shouldn't be wasted, but it would have lended much more credence to big events if character deaths actually resulted from them. Like if half the Ultra roster actually died as result of hive fleet Behemoths assault on Macragge. Or similiar.

 

Honestly GW is shooting themselves in the foot by being a bit cowardly here, people are thirsting for consequences from the big narrative events, and at the same time I doubt GW is gonna update every single one of the Ultras what, 9?, special characters, why not have someone die for a change? Make it epic, kill many birds with one stone.

 

I hope they learn from the lukewarm (even cold) reception to the Vigilus 'outcome'. 

 

 

Vigilus was a huge disappointment. Could've been Calgar's glorious end.

[Panzer]

 

I know my views are somewhat contradictory on this. I, on the one hand, don't think any characters should just be killed off to satisfy a number game, but on the other hand I also think that no subfaction realistically needs more than three special characters (At the very most five? Think only Ultras and some of the big 3 top that number.) Characters shouldn't be wasted, but it would have lended much more credence to big events if character deaths actually resulted from them. Like if half the Ultra roster actually died as result of hive fleet Behemoths assault on Macragge. Or similiar.

 

Honestly GW is shooting themselves in the foot by being a bit cowardly here, people are thirsting for consequences from the big narrative events, and at the same time I doubt GW is gonna update every single one of the Ultras what, 9?, special characters, why not have someone die for a change? Make it epic, kill many birds with one stone.

 

I hope they learn from the lukewarm (even cold) reception to the Vigilus 'outcome'. 

 

 

You mean like the lukewarm receptions of practically every campaign they did? Unlikely they'll ever learn from that. ^^

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I always thought lucuis should be a venom class entity, jumping from person to person, corrupting their form or being. Least that way when he's killed he can just materialise in the warp.

[Panzer]

I always thought lucuis should be a venom class entity, jumping from person to person, corrupting their form or being. Least that way when he's killed he can just materialise in the warp.

 

Well that's kinda what he does. Except that he can only jump under a certain condition (death of the current body and satisfaction of the one who killed it).

 

However we know that bombarding the planet he is on without knowing he's there would never work out. He's the champion of Slaanesh and the chaos gods don't like losing their toys just like that. He would get revived like Khârn got and eventually be back in business.