Chaos vs. New Marines

[Prot]

So I feel compelled to make this topic, and I'm a bit surprised I haven't really seen it yet.

 

While I do enjoy my Ultramarines, my longest standing army going back decades is my chaos collection. In playing my Ultramarines it's been a continual tug of war between enjoying the benefits of the new rules, while shaking my head in dismay at what we (chaos) have had released over the last 3 months. 

 

I came to the conclusion that things aren't going to change any time soon for Chaos. We had a warning when GW clearly stated... this is not a new Chaos codex, it's meant to be a compilation of the relevant data sheets. 

 

So be that as it may, we have to come up with some clever, hard hitting ways of fighting back. I truly don't feel we're anywhere near on equal footing, but even so I do think we have certain advantages to leverage. 

 

Perhaps one of the biggest of these advantages is the amount of "Infantry" I'm seeing for Space Marines. I think Chaos is good at killing infantry overall. I know that's going to get heavily skewed with Iron Hands which I believe will be one of the easiest 'go to' armies for competitive play. And in that case we'll see a lot of Leviathans, and survivable vehicles that can really take a beating. 

 

I'm starting to think we need to reduce the quality of shooting, and increase the volume of it. Most of the 'good' infantry is multiwound. Intercessors, White Scar bikers, Ultra Aggressors, Centurions, etc, etc. 

 

The vehicles? I think we need to focus on Mortal Wounds. Plenty of them. I anticipate (fingers crossed) that Psychic Awakening will give us greater leverage into that area but for now we have to assume we'll be relying on smite.

 

Unit wise:

 

I just bought two more boxes of Havocs. I still have fun with the Oblits, but the Havocs are a better buy in my opinion. They're easier to hide, and to duplicate. They move faster, and aren't nearly as expensive. I still am relying heavily on Chaincannons.

 

For Vehicles. I really don't know right now. I'd like input. I have recently pulled all my (3) Lord Discordants. They've been dying so easily lately, and I can't seem to get real mileage out of them, but they are a fistfull of great attacks against the right units.... Vehicles. Is this the best solution?

 

What are you guys thinking as far as keeping up with the loyalists?

[Guzzlrr]

Well my first bout with the new codex did not go terribly well LOL basically was able to lock me in my deployment and lacked real CC options in that particular list to properly counter.

 

Im starting to think time for me to get my blenders (bezerkers) & exhalted Champs out we generally have more advantages in CC so thinking of exploring close combat alternatives stacking DPs ??

 

seems to me if we let them shoot its gonna be painful.  

[Hannibal]

A DP of Khorne will shred 4-5 Primaris Space Marines in one combat phase, though he might eventually die to the return fire.

 

IMO the biggest problems are Aggressors, Inceptors and Centurions. I´d play exactely these units if I would buy into loyal SM. Aggressors and Assault Centurions shred single wound infantry like there´s no tomorrow, Devastator Centurions are just op compared to Obliterators. Each model offers 12 bolter shots and 2 lascannon OR 6 heavy bolter shots depending on the loadout. There is almost no hope to withstand such amount of firepower. Oh, and Inceptors bearing 6 heavy bolter equivalents each while moving 12"...

 

And did I mention the defensive stats? And that doctrines system allowing for even more AP?

 

 

As mentioned above by someone else, CSM rather excell in melee instead of shooting, but we miss a unit that reliably kill that toughness 5 / 3 wounds gravis armored dudes...

 

In my games Bikes performed above average as well as deepstruk Obliterators, while our Troops selection just die like flies. All they do is provide CP due to battalion detachments.

 

Oh, you can always summon in 30 Plaguebearers or play some kind of soup with plaguebearers as your real Troops choice. That and some Thousand Sons characters for heavy mortal wound output is a strong base. Though it isn´t CSM any more. On the other hand I noticed that I rarely use any special stratagems from Codex: CSM and therefore am thinking about running cherry picking "Heretic Astartes" instead of CSM. I don´t think that loosing the CSM legions traits is something to worry about.

 

Though if you think that Legion traits are mandatory, I´s head towards Alpha Legion or Red Corsairs because I think that these are the strongest we have.

[Painjunky]

I agree that GW wont be showing us any love anytime soon.

 

As SM firepower is sooo frigging lethal now i feel we need to run a sacrificial first wave of big gribblies to hopefully soak that fire and give the second wave a chance of connecting. We can't get in a shooting match, we will lose.

 

I'm going to max out on 3 maulers and 3 venomcrawlers as they are pretty fast and cheap. DPs, helbrutes, bikes and units in rhinos form the second wave.

Might work... maybe.

[Prot]

While I agree Aggressors and Centurions are phenomenal, wait until Iron Hands and I think you’ll see less of the ‘Ultramarines ‘ style infantry and a lot of Iron Leviathans.

 

You’ll see a lot of the 3” Aura relic that provides -1 damage to all within range. Combined with the start that halves all damage on a targeted Dreadnought, I think you’ll find those Leviathans incredibly potent. Keep in mind Iron Hands have FnP and 5+ overwatch AND double wound count on those same dreads. I don’t think you’re going to see a ton of infantry aside from Devs in pods which will be brutal alpha strike units with Dev Doctrines.

 

I am thinking of firing up my somewhat overpriced Soulburner Petard Decimators. Remember Mortal Wounds count as individual damage.

 

+++++++

 

I have loved the walker units.... Disco Lords and the Venoms... but they have a glaring weakness... ruins. I had a few tournament games where the opponent just stands on the second level or in areas that can’t be passed through.

 

++++++++

 

I really hate doing this but I’m thinking of blending my Chaos Knights into my Black Legion. It may not even work. I don’t know yet. But I do think transports are now a must for the infantry.

[Lucerne]

As Alpha Legion, defecting back and playing as Raven Guard makes for a more fluffy, interesting army- snipers ahoy!

[MegaVolt87]

I think we will be leaning much more heavily on FW units like dreads to keep up. Either that or double down on our more points efficient/ high model count/ tides. My new IW list has dropped the sicarans and the termi HQ and unit to 3 AC + las predators, added a sorcerer and I have taken a devastation battery detachment. I also dropped my HB havocs in favour of a unit with AC's. Just when I was ahead on painting my IW army, now I am kinda back to where I started lol. Especially when I am kinda doing my own DIY primaris army as well.... 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Any attempt at a gunline - Alphas, IWs, etc - I feel desperately needs psychic support and a Noctilith Crown. Invulnerable saves are actually pretty common place in our faction, and giving them some extra protection against those boosted-AP lascannons and krak missiles.

 

Also, our psychic powers (and litanies too) are all extremely useful, and all the Marked powers boost durability as well. A Chaos Predator isn't hard to kill until it get the Crown's 5++, a -1 from Benediction of Darkness, -1 from Miasma/4++ from Weaver/5+++ from Agonies.

[MegaVolt87]

I love our psychic powers and chaplin abilities, though they are single unit based. Maybe in psychic awakening, we could get aura buff spells that are harder to cast or something. I could fit in a crown, though I think it would be a bit of a squeeze trying to fit my 15 havocs, 3 characters and three preds in it, doing a castle. I thought three preds because of kill shot stratagem, something loyalists don't seem to have anymore. 

[DominikB]

I love our psychic powers and chaplin abilities, though they are single unit based. Maybe in psychic awakening, we could get aura buff spells that are harder to cast or something. I could fit in a crown, though I think it would be a bit of a squeeze trying to fit my 15 havocs, 3 characters and three preds in it, doing a castle. I thought three preds because of kill shot stratagem, something loyalists don't seem to have anymore.

I think that’s the main difference between us and the marines, we can usually buff 1 unit but they can buff many if not the whole army.

 

So that’s what’s we kinda have to do, provide multiple units that can have the buff applied as they’re slowly removed off the table :/

[Leonite]

As a Word Bearer.... my plan is to double down on the flavor of my army and start taking Daemonkin Detachments, summoning in Greater Daemons and Heralds, using Daemon Engines and the like. A ten man squad of cultists to screen the Possessed, two five men squads of Marines with a Melta each to provide distractions and objective holders, and the Daemon Engines (Defiler and Helldrake atm) to take attention away. In 1000 points. 

[Relic]

Hard to see it for my poor CSM. Playing vs marines they are MEQ ++. 

 

Chaos has great soup options but problem is the more you look at the other chaos options - you end up with less and less CSM units cause they aren't great overall. 

[Hannibal]

Hard to see it for my poor CSM. Playing vs marines they are MEQ ++. 

 

Chaos has great soup options but problem is the more you look at the other chaos options - you end up with less and less CSM units cause they aren't great overall. 

 

That´s exactly my feeling too. I started with Daemons and because my regular opponents didn´t like to play against Daemons any longer (I had a pretty gross winning rate), I started with CSM to give them some different experience. Well, long story short, the games are much more blanced now. Daemons are just stronger than CSM.

 

30 Plaguebearers fully equipped are just 235 points. You can get some medium tooled up 15 CSM for the same cost, it´s just funny. Never ever will 15 CSM compete with 30 Plaguebearers.

 

People tend to run Thousand Sons Supreme Command Detachments too when it comes down to competetive play. Here again: Never ever will 600 points of CSM shooting compete with 600 points of 1000Sons Sorcerers.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

When i discovered that any random anonymous pointless successor chapter can get the NL legions trait. 

But with a diminush range 

But without the limitation on max debuff  

And it's only one half of their chapter trait   

[Kain Mor]

My solution is to shelf my 5k points of fluff heavy, power armor focused Night Lords army. They were already borderline useless before, now it’s just a joke.

[TorvaldTheMild]

So I feel compelled to make this topic, and I'm a bit surprised I haven't really seen it yet.

 

While I do enjoy my Ultramarines, my longest standing army going back decades is my chaos collection. In playing my Ultramarines it's been a continual tug of war between enjoying the benefits of the new rules, while shaking my head in dismay at what we (chaos) have had released over the last 3 months. 

 

I came to the conclusion that things aren't going to change any time soon for Chaos. We had a warning when GW clearly stated... this is not a new Chaos codex, it's meant to be a compilation of the relevant data sheets. 

 

So be that as it may, we have to come up with some clever, hard hitting ways of fighting back. I truly don't feel we're anywhere near on equal footing, but even so I do think we have certain advantages to leverage. 

 

Perhaps one of the biggest of these advantages is the amount of "Infantry" I'm seeing for Space Marines. I think Chaos is good at killing infantry overall. I know that's going to get heavily skewed with Iron Hands which I believe will be one of the easiest 'go to' armies for competitive play. And in that case we'll see a lot of Leviathans, and survivable vehicles that can really take a beating. 

 

I'm starting to think we need to reduce the quality of shooting, and increase the volume of it. Most of the 'good' infantry is multiwound. Intercessors, White Scar bikers, Ultra Aggressors, Centurions, etc, etc. 

 

The vehicles? I think we need to focus on Mortal Wounds. Plenty of them. I anticipate (fingers crossed) that Psychic Awakening will give us greater leverage into that area but for now we have to assume we'll be relying on smite.

 

Unit wise:

 

I just bought two more boxes of Havocs. I still have fun with the Oblits, but the Havocs are a better buy in my opinion. They're easier to hide, and to duplicate. They move faster, and aren't nearly as expensive. I still am relying heavily on Chaincannons.

 

For Vehicles. I really don't know right now. I'd like input. I have recently pulled all my (3) Lord Discordants. They've been dying so easily lately, and I can't seem to get real mileage out of them, but they are a fistfull of great attacks against the right units.... Vehicles. Is this the best solution?

 

What are you guys thinking as far as keeping up with the loyalists?

I think my greatest peeve is that we are no longer SM's nemesis, we are second class marines to the new Primaris, which I think is GW's biggest mistake.  They think that making Primaris bigger stronger faster is going to get more people into them, but that isn't the case.  I used to collect SW's, not anymore I tried to do the Primaris thing, at the beggening I was really excited, I loved the new models but then the more models came out, the less and less like my old army they started becoming, they got rid of options, they made it a dakka army and their CC units are a joke.  I stopped collecting them, I'll keep my current army hoping it will change, but I'm a lucky one because my primary army are World Eaters and Khorne Daemons.  I think CSM's are more popular with older players now because they are still the same army as they used to be, they are still marines if that makes sense.  They should have made Primaris stronger ect in the lore and upped CSM wounds and attacks, because 40k stats aren't accurate, between st 3 and 4 for instance there is a huge variation in strength.  1 wound models don't cut it with SM's not in this edition with the insane amount of D2.

[Prot]

As far as the older players comment. I guess I fit that criteria, but I still like new marines, and the old. My new Ultras are worlds ahead of my Chaos ( I could not say this previous to this new codex though. - all marines new and old were in the same sub serviant boat. ).

 

I think a lot of armies have to adjust. It’s just much harder now for CSM using old marines with old rules. This is kind of off topic but those Primaris have the ‘primary’ purpose of selling tins of new models to old players who have closets full of the old stuff. This isn’t the case with Chaos. They put out new CSM kits and we are all over it like white on rice.

 

Be that as it may, now do we compensate now? I used to try the shooty method when assault failed me but I don’t think that’s the case now. My Daemon Engines list hit some pot holes but I like to think we have some tricks still without going to Daemons.

[TorvaldTheMild]

As far as the older players comment. I guess I fit that criteria, but I still like new marines, and the old. My new Ultras are worlds ahead of my Chaos ( I could not say this previous to this new codex though. - all marines new and old were in the same sub serviant boat. ).

 

I think a lot of armies have to adjust. It’s just much harder now for CSM using old marines with old rules. This is kind of off topic but those Primaris have the ‘primary’ purpose of selling tins of new models to old players who have closets full of the old stuff. This isn’t the case with Chaos. They put out new CSM kits and we are all over it like white on rice.

 

Be that as it may, now do we compensate now? I used to try the shooty method when assault failed me but I don’t think that’s the case now. My Daemon Engines list hit some pot holes but I like to think we have some tricks still without going to Daemons.

No I mean Primaris have turned shooty, their CC is good as in their overall abilities but they have no real CC unit, reavers are a joke.

[Hannibal]

Be that as it may, now do we compensate now? I used to try the shooty method when assault failed me but I don’t think that’s the case now. My Daemon Engines list hit some pot holes but I like to think we have some tricks still without going to Daemons.

 

I think we have to work twofold. On one hand we have to render their Dakka useless, ie running lots and lots of T8 with that Alpha Legion trait of -1 to hit. On the other hand, we need weapons with damage 2. That way, as soon as we reach their lines, they will die.

 

There is simply no way to deal with 2 wounds and armor 2+ (Primaris in cover) if you´re relying on damage 1 weapons. You need 36 Bolter shots on average to kill one Primaris in cover.

 

That being said, a Daemon Engibes list might work, though it misses T8.

 

One "unit" that always works well for me is: 2 Obliterators accompanied by a lord in Terminator armor (black mace + combi-meta). Deepstrike, shoot twice, try to reach cc. If you´re solely heading for shooting, 3 Obliterators give you more output for the same cost. Unfortunately that tactic doesn´t scale well, because it is based on a stratagem to get the most out of your shoting.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Hmmmmmm. 6 Intercessors with bolt rifles is 102 points. 5 plague marines with 2 blight launchers and combi bolter on the Champion is 102 points.

 

The 6 Intercessor bolt rifle shots (in Rapid-fire range) on average against plague marines in cover is .57 wounds.

 

The 5 plague marines blight launchers shots on average do 1.74 wounds and bolt shots (in Rapid-fire range) do .53 wounds against Intercessors in cover.

 

12 wounds taking 2.27 a turn vs 5 wounds taking .57 a turn, Math hammer has plague marines beating Intercessors by a good margin.

 

But then you add in the Intercessors range, new chapter tactics and more available buffs/synergy and they probably win out. Math hammer always betrays me haha. I think alot of what chaos needs to be competitive with space marines now is an actual new and shiny 2.0 codex with matching chapter/legion traits like the space marines got. Then I can see them putting up more of a fight.

 

Death to the false emperor!

[Iron_Within]

After over 20 years of Chaos my Iron Warriors are finally gathering dust on the shelves. The breaking point has been Codex Space Marines.

 

I don't think polishing a turd is possible. Codex Space Marines has too many tools and too many redundancies and too many *good* things that Chaos Space Marines, without going an incredibly lacklustre, janky lists we just have no chance. With those lists that do have a chance are just not Chaos Space Marines. So no.

[Balthamal]

From a pure gameplay PoV having had a fair few against the new stuff lately, plague wall is still the go to option because it despite all the new shooting it still effectively screens the nuclear bomb of characters riding behind it who annihilate everything in sight when the time comes. Shooting wise we'll never compete - the highest shooting output unit we have are oblits and 3 of those cost 345 points which is pathetic really, even accounting for shooting twice. Combat is a mixed bag as well - stuff will either melt like ice in the oven or the more higher value stuff will die and then jump up and fight before being removed, likely killing whatever dropped them in the first place.

 

The concept I'm currently trialing out are Lord Discordants - 2 minimum in a soulforged pack as flawless host. The damage potential on them is absolutely stupid - one is the warlord with Ultimate Confidence for super exploding 5s with the Intoxicating Elixar, the other has the warlord trait to increase the movement with field commander rounded out with a winged prince with the Flawless Cloak for a 9" re-roll bubble on them all with a pair of maulers backed up by a few squads of cultists and marines and a world eaters battalion with 2 lots of zerkers in rhinos with an exalted champion with Brass Collar and Khârn plus 6 bikes. Combat potential is unreal, trick is getting it all into the lines to do some damage, The World Eaters do surprisingly well tbh and Khârn mangles whatever he touches, be that the enemy or other zerkers lol. 

 

The other one is a bit more out there into the dirty territory of soup (But done in a way to squeeze into ITC faction restrictions) consisting of a battalion of Slaaneshi Black Legion (of all the actual traitors they have the most versatility imo given the likely impending nerf to Alpha Legion) including 6 bikes a sorcerer on a steed of slaanesh and a prince, a flawless host supreme command with 3 disco lords and as many goodies as possible (Ultimate confidence, Intoxicating Elixar, Field Commander and either flawless cloak or mechatendrites) and a battalion of Slaanesh daemons with 50 daemonettes; 1x30 2x10 a rapturesss a herald on a steed and syll'esske with a few points left to dot here and there as needed. 

 

Having tried this latter list last night the one take away from it is, the speed is breathtaking. The disco lords are quick, souldforged disco lords are very quick and getting the locus benefit from the herald means they're greased lightning even without Warp Time. Depending on deployment map and where things are dropped, they're easily capable of hitting combat turn one and what they hit will die. Playing against Blood Angels yesterday, the 5 Chainglaive attacks exploded into a further 15 (3 for Ultimate Confidence, 1 for DttFE and one for the Slaanesh locus) between that and the rest 2 impulsors died even with their 4++ which kicked off a further 2 D3 mortal wounds for spirit thief. If you can have the prince and Syll'esske keep pace with them to buff hits and wounds you won't go far wrong because this army will be across the board in the blink of an eye and there's enough nastyness in there to mince screening. I may try and trim down the daemonettes to include something harder hitting like a Scorpius. Bit of fine tuning and I think it'll be a decent list. Needs a lot of practicing though, very finesse type. 

[Prot]

 

Be that as it may, now do we compensate now? I used to try the shooty method when assault failed me but I don’t think that’s the case now. My Daemon Engines list hit some pot holes but I like to think we have some tricks still without going to Daemons.

 

I think we have to work twofold. On one hand we have to render their Dakka useless, ie running lots and lots of T8 with that Alpha Legion trait of -1 to hit. On the other hand, we need weapons with damage 2. That way, as soon as we reach their lines, they will die.

 

There is simply no way to deal with 2 wounds and armor 2+ (Primaris in cover) if you´re relying on damage 1 weapons. You need 36 Bolter shots on average to kill one Primaris in cover.

 

 

 

.

 

 

+++ T8 and harder hitting. I completely agree, but I'll go further and say if it's cheap enough, T5 infantry. I've been playing a ton of games with my Ultramarines and I'll tell you something they are phenomenal about: spamming boat loads of S4 AP-1 to AP -3 weaponry. 

 

+++ I did a Battle Report on my blog of my Ultra's VS. Death Guard. It was absolutely shocking to me how T5 caused me issues. 

 

+++ On the note of T8.... try not to laugh but I've been considering..... 3 Vindicators. (Perhaps with Noctlith Crown and Psyker support. But it might be better with Thousand Sons.... or no Noctlith and a Dark Apostle with the 5+ invuln litany)

 

 

After over 20 years of Chaos my Iron Warriors are finally gathering dust on the shelves. The breaking point has been Codex Space Marines.

 

I don't think polishing a turd is possible. Codex Space Marines has too many tools and too many redundancies and too many *good* things that Chaos Space Marines, without going an incredibly lacklustre, janky lists we just have no chance. With those lists that do have a chance are just not Chaos Space Marines. So no.

 

+++ I hear you. But this turd has been tied around my proverbial neck a long time, and after 3rd it's had a certain smell to it that won't go away. I just really like to think there's something here to make it competitive while waiting for.... dare I suggest.... the Campaign that fixes all? (Ducks the incoming tomatoes)

 

 

 

The concept I'm currently trialing out are Lord Discordants - 2 minimum in a soulforged pack as flawless host. The damage potential on them is absolutely stupid - one is the warlord with Ultimate Confidence for super exploding 5s with the Intoxicating Elixar, the other has the warlord trait to increase the movement with field commander rounded out with a winged prince with the Flawless Cloak for a 9" re-roll bubble on them all with a pair of maulers backed up by a few squads of cultists and marines and a world eaters battalion with 2 lots of zerkers in rhinos with an exalted champion with Brass Collar and Khârn plus 6 bikes. Combat potential is unreal, trick is getting it all into the lines to do some damage, The World Eaters do surprisingly well tbh and Khârn mangles whatever he touches, be that the enemy or other zerkers lol. 

 

 

 

+++ I have played tournies with a similar concept. It just falls really flat against a few list types. Knights really gave me problems. You're making a list that's not going to shoot much at all, so you're relying purely on CC to get rid of hard targets and (aside from Oblits and Chaincannons) I found it just... very, very hard to clear  enough Knights before getting pounded into the ground with Daemon Engines in our codex. 

 

The other issue is screens. Really good screening armies absorb that type of impact well. Without Chain cannons, or something similar (bikes/termie Cacaphony) you'll find it hard to apply the pressure early.

 

Finally the big issue I ran into that list was non-interactive match ups: Eldar Airshow was horrible (and incredibly boring) and so is a map with ruins. Aside from Berzerkers, (which will get targeted very early) the opponent just has to stand on a floor and you're stuck staring up at them all game. (It's a really silly mechanism I'd like to see fixed in 9th ed or an update of some sort).

 

 

The other one is a bit more out there into the dirty territory of soup (But done in a way to squeeze into ITC faction restrictions) consisting of a battalion of Slaaneshi Black Legion (of all the actual traitors they have the most versatility imo given the likely impending nerf to Alpha Legion) including 6 bikes a sorcerer on a steed of slaanesh and a prince, a flawless host supreme command with 3 disco lords and as many goodies as possible (Ultimate confidence, Intoxicating Elixar, Field Commander and either flawless cloak or mechatendrites) and a battalion of Slaanesh daemons with 50 daemonettes; 1x30 2x10 a rapturesss a herald on a steed and syll'esske with a few points left to dot here and there as needed. 

 

Having tried this latter list last night the one take away from it is, the speed is breathtaking. The disco lords are quick, souldforged disco lords are very quick and getting the locus benefit from the herald means they're greased lightning even without Warp Time. Depending on deployment map and where things are dropped, they're easily capable of hitting combat turn one and what they hit will die. Playing against Blood Angels yesterday, the 5 Chainglaive attacks exploded into a further 15 (3 for Ultimate Confidence, 1 for DttFE and one for the Slaanesh locus) between that and the rest 2 impulsors died even with their 4++ which kicked off a further 2 D3 mortal wounds for spirit thief. If you can have the prince and Syll'esske keep pace with them to buff hits and wounds you won't go far wrong because this army will be across the board in the blink of an eye and there's enough nastyness in there to mince screening. I may try and trim down the daemonettes to include something harder hitting like a Scorpius. Bit of fine tuning and I think it'll be a decent list. Needs a lot of practicing though, very finesse type. 

 

+++ I'm glad you had success with it. It is a good match up for that kind of list though too. It gives me hope that I could revisit my 3 Disco Lord list and have some success with it. 

 

My personal issue is I like characters too much. The 3 Disco's cost a lot. I really, really like the Venom Crawlers but if I include them I have no points for other potent stuff. I had been using Oblits, and Masters of Possession to keep them buffed and healed. I really needed a Daemon Prince.

 

I usually play as Black Legion and take Abaddon a lot which probably hurts me too much. Abe is fun, but slow, and Flawless Host just seems to be the only way I see Disco's played now.

[Trevak Dal]

I like two daemon princes of Khorne, some mauler dogs, just ripping up one side of the table with as many Berserkers in rhinos going up the other.

[Leonite]

I'm gonna test out some Possessed in an upcoming game. See how they do.