Chaos vs. New Marines

[RapatoR]

 

 

If this is true we could see the new Chaos Codex and supplements all released by March or April 2020.

wat

 

I would not get your hopes up for any CSM content or a new codex for the foreseeable future following this release. This is probably it.

My guess is that PA is lead-up to "new" edition. As far as I am concerned, I would like to see a new book only after it hits.

[techsoldaten]

 

You're reading this all wrong.

 

Black Blow Fly already covered the ancient. Its good especially with a captain but its still only on a 4+.

 

Chapter ancients were in the first 8th ed book and every previous book since at least 5th edition, they predate brotherhood ancients (3rd and 4th ed had one standard bearer who got to choose between company, reclusium and chapter banners, 2nd ed had chapter ancients as special characters for Ultramarines, Dark and Blood Angels with the Ultramarine one actually being called an Ancient). The Ultramarine supplement also already included rules for them since they have a unique model so its not really 'new' even if the rules are not the same.

 

Chief Librarians don't get a range boost to deny, the relic gives a boost to psychic hood range. So basically it means they get +1 to deny all the time rather than in half range. Compared to the good anti-psyker stuff out there its irrelevant.

 

Thank you for pointing this out. I overreacted a bit, just not sure how much.

 

The banner is a significant improvement on already very killy units. I've played a lot of games versus PEQ and believe this puts games against them out of reach for most Chaos lists. BS WS 2+ turns them into lawnmowers against everything MEQ in our lists.

 

I wouldn't discount the importance of buffs for DTW at 24". Primaris armies thrive on being able to extend what we consider "mid-range" to 30".  Being able to cancel an important power on our end makes the gap that much wider.

 

Still feels like these HQs can be game turners. They give just enough of a buff to put them over the top in close games.

 

Master of the Forge just means that non-Iron Hands get to spend cp to get a crappy version of Stronos. Its nothing.

Sad heldrake cries alone.

 

Chaos still massively outpace nu marines, its dealing damage once we're there that hurts. My chaos range problems are still bigger against Tau than loyalists even if both will cause issues.

 

Here's where Master of the Forge makes a big difference.

 

You're playing NuMarines v Chaos, you have a Repulsor that puts out 30+ shots a turn. The Repulsor is reduced to 1 wound. The next turn, that Repulsor responds and takes out a lot of infantry and a Helbrute or something.

 

The Chaos player's offense is suddenly diminished. What happens next? In a lot of situations, that Chaos player will only have small arms to respond with. Being able to buff that Repulsor to 4 wounds is critical when you're facing Bolters / Autocannons / etc.

 

This situation comes up in my games, especially facing Triple Repulsors. My units with heavy weapons become priority targets, suddenly I don't have any shooting besides Bolters. You have to concentrate a lot of firepower to kill those tanks or they just move to the middle of the board and a kill zone you can't cross. Having one stick around an extra turn is catastrophic, I want them off the board asap and can't always deal enough damage to make that happen.

 

Re: Heldrakes - mine are dice challenged, they never seem to make more than a 6" charge.

[Closet Skeleton]

Thank you for pointing this out. I overreacted a bit, just not sure how much.

 

The banner is a significant improvement on already very killy units. I've played a lot of games versus PEQ and believe this puts games against them out of reach for most Chaos lists. BS WS 2+ turns them into lawnmowers against everything MEQ in our lists.

 

I wouldn't discount the importance of buffs for DTW at 24". Primaris armies thrive on being able to extend what we consider "mid-range" to 30".  Being able to cancel an important power on our end makes the gap that much wider.

 

Still feels like these HQs can be game turners. They give just enough of a buff to put them over the top in close games.

 

 

The banner is okay but the 3+ shoot on death that they lost was still better than 4+ to shoot again on a 2+ to hit.

 

Its not that +1 to deny at 24" is bad, more that its such a common buff its not worth worrying about it. Tyranids basically get a better version of that as standard. The updated version of Inquisitor Greyfax does that as an ally without costing cp or breaking doctrines. Tigurius is still better, this just spreads that defense around a little. I'd just use the Reliquary of Gathamor instead every time though I suppose against thousand sons it might be worth double dipping. The simple fact is that marines still aren't bringing a lot of CP and everything is an opportunity cost.

 

I've not had to fight triple repulsors with more than once so have no idea what a little extra healing they can have will do but its still true that Iron Hands can't use a Master of the Forge without giving up Stronos so tournament meta wise they're irrelevant.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I really think Special Weapons and Heavy Weapons need to do more damage. There was a certain threat that marines had in previous edition because of the way vehicle damage tables and then HPs in 6th and 7th worked. I would even be okay with weapons like lascannons and missile launchers doing 2D6 damage as opposed to only a D6. There was a time when a single lascannon shot that penetrated had the potential to complete remove a vehicle.. I find that there is plenty of realism there as well, the U.S. Military has very highly equipped infantry units whose weapon capabilities can take out an armor or air asset in one shot. So far this edition weight of firepower has been the most effective way to remove something and a unit doesn't even need to have high strength or weapons skill to do so, they just need a lot of shots. If the weapons marines carried head more offensive threat on the table top it would make them a lot more valuable and at the list more considerable compared to a strategy like massed cultist paper cut to death. 

 

Edit for spelling

Edited November 18, 2019 by Bloody Legionnaire

[techsoldaten]

 

I've not had to fight triple repulsors with more than once so have no idea what a little extra healing they can have will do but its still true that Iron Hands can't use a Master of the Forge without giving up Stronos so tournament meta wise they're irrelevant.

 

 

I've played more than a handful of games against Triple Repulsor lists, mostly Ultramarines.

 

While there are other tough NuMarines lists right now, this one seems especially good against Chaos. Most games, 3 tanks move to the middle of the board to create a kill zone that spreads to all edges of the table, putting out about 120 shots a turn. They can wipe out infantry and vehicles very quickly, forcing you to treat them as priority targets. You have to pour everything into them before you can start fighting the rest of the army.

 

They're like a big speedbump. Each turn one is on the board, that's 40 shots to deal with and you will be losing units in the attempt. I could see someone taking 3 Repulsors and a Master of the Forge to just keep their firepoint intact throughout the game.

 

 

I really think Special Weapons and Heavy Weapons need to do more damage. There was a certain threat that marines had in previous edition because of the way vehicle damage tables and then HPs in 6th and 7th worked. I would even be okay with weapons like lascannons and missile launchers doing 2D6 damage as opposed to only a D6. There was a time when a single lascannon shot that penetrated had the potential to complete remove a vehicle.. I find that there is plenty of realism there as well, the U.S. Military has very highly equipped infantry units whose weapon capabilities can take out an armor or air asset in one shot. So far this edition weight of firepower has been the most effective way to remove something and a unit doesn't even need to have high strength or weapons skill to do so, they just need a lot of shots. If the weapons marines carried head more offensive threat on the table top it would make them a lot more valuable and at the list more considerable compared to a strategy like massed cultist paper cut to death. 

 

Edit for spelling

 

Chaos has never been more than a mid-range, melee oriented army.

 

I've played a Black Legion gunline throughout most of 8th edition featuring Abaddon and 20+ lascannons which has overall done well. The problems I've run into are with flyers, hordes and Knights, who have the range / movement to close distances quickly and take out ranged weapons. Raven Guard, Dark Eldar, Orks and Imperial Knights are hard counters to this kind of list.

 

Increasing damage isn't going to change the situation. CSMs are still MEQ, killing MEQ is too easy in this edition. If I could change one thing to make Chaos better, it would be the To Wound chart. I'd make it so you need a 5+ to wound anything with a T above the S of your gun and a 6+ for anything 2+ T over the S. That would at least make our Laspreds and Contemptors credible threats again and give our CSMs a chance against Eldar and Guard.

 

But yeah - try a game with Abaddon and 20 lascannons on Havocs, Contemptors and CSMs. Deploy on your table edge and keep all guns in range of his reroll bubble, watch what happens the first 2 turns. Just proxy if you don't have the models. Against most units, you have a  2++ / 3+ averaging 3 Damage per shot, which is some of the most efficient shooting in any Chaos army. You'll see how close we are to being a good long range army.

Edited November 18, 2019 by techsoldaten

[Closet Skeleton]

That's still 3 spammed 330+ point units that don't have invulnerable saves. 9 Obliterators is the chaos equivalent and can take them out pretty easily especially with the new Iron Warriors stuff.

[techsoldaten]

That's still 3 spammed 330+ point units that don't have invulnerable saves. 9 Obliterators is the chaos equivalent and can take them out pretty easily especially with the new Iron Warriors stuff.

 

Obliterators don't work against Triple Repulsors. Most people running them know to screen past 24".

 

Infiltrators make deep strikers ineffective in general. What's worked for me is massed lascannons and Daemon Primarchs. Thousand Sons have some hard counters for them too.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

 

Increasing damage isn't going to change the situation. CSMs are still MEQ, killing MEQ is too easy in this edition. If I could change one thing to make Chaos better, it would be the To Wound chart. I'd make it so you need a 5+ to wound anything with a T above the S of your gun and a 6+ for anything 2+ T over the S. That would at least make our Laspreds and Contemptors credible threats again and give our CSMs a chance against Eldar and Guard.

 

 

 

 

Against vehicles and higher wound creatures it absolutely makes the difference. I'm not sure how you can try to suggest otherwise. It makes the individual heavy or special weapons gunner more of an individual threat. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Bloody Legionnaire

[MegaVolt87]

I think a crown would boost that BL LC spam list a lot with the 5++ bubble if you are going to be castling anyway. T5 5++ basically adds back the extra 5 wounds from the bolter bro's havoks used to have maths wise I think. 

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

That's still 3 spammed 330+ point units that don't have invulnerable saves. 9 Obliterators is the chaos equivalent and can take them out pretty easily especially with the new Iron Warriors stuff.

 

Obliterators don't work against Triple Repulsors. Most people running them know to screen past 24".

 

Infiltrators make deep strikers ineffective in general. What's worked for me is massed lascannons and Daemon Primarchs. Thousand Sons have some hard counters for them too.

 

 

Interestingly in my time using Oblits since the chaos codex re-up I have actually never seen a successful screen against an Oblit drop that zoned out a 24 inch range threat by turn 2. 

 

Usually no matter the army there are viable important targets you can reach out and touch with the Oblits, some form of important unit, important walker, tank, or other viable target is within range even if they zone out a portion of the board. 

 

Infiltrators in particular are difficult due to the increased range but I have found that they do in fact die just like other Primaris, usually quick application of Plasma can plug the squad quickly enough and it doesn't become an issue as of yet. depending on terrain, deployment type, and other things such as both army comps of course. Varies alot per list and opponent. 

[Midnight Brotherhood]

Ugh, I played against numarines last night and it left me feeling really dejected about my chaos force. I even used the new psychic awakening rules for my Night Lords but the disparity in power between our army rules was obvious. I've half a mind to just sell off my chaos but I think that's just frustration and saltiness getting to me so I'm trying to ignore it for now and maybe put down 40k for awhile. We had a fun game and it was very close mainly because I played to objectives but there were some mechanics I noticed that just really frustrated my efforts. My friend plays Crimson Fists and I don't really have any other opponents at the moment either.

 

Things that just felt too much:

 

Crimson Fists getting additional autohits on unmodified 6s with bolt weaponry. I tried using in midnight clad (-1 to hit) and also using the benediction of darkness (-1 to hit) to dish out some -1 to hits but it felt wasted. The -1 to hits don't affect his 6s because it's unmodified. So for every roll of 2 or 3 that missed it ended up getting put back into his pot of hits with the 6s he rolled. Obviously 1s got rerolled and sometimes became 6s generating an extra autohit. Felt like a waste of my command points and resources.

 

Tactical doctrine is too powerful - all of his bolters shredded my infantry and when combined with the additional autohits from his chapter tactic and storm of fire I was regularly getting hit by -2 AP bolters at no cost to himself in command points or anything. I lost all my ground troops by start of turn 2, and they were in cover!

 

Death to the Traitors - Why is it when the loyalists use our death to the false emperor equivalent their's goes off on unmodified 6s and our's doesn't? I had Thunder Hammer terminators getting additional attacks on me on 6s while my power fist terminators lost the bonus because the wording on our rules isn't unmodified.

 

Chapter tactics affecting all of his vehicles, his land raider, his whirlwind etc. 

 

Sorry for the negative post, I'm just venting but I don't see a way out of this for me without forking out more money to buy more stuff for my chaos and I simply don't have that money. I don't want to pay to win.

[Special Officer Doofy]

I feel you midnight. Not only am I refusing to play loyalist marine players right now I'm just out of the hobby for the most part. Painting some stuff I have left over. Not giving GW another dime until the creep is addressed. I've read most of what the main chaos Legions got but it still doesn't even come close to the doctrine b.s.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Midnight Brotherhood, one small point in your narrative: you got cheated a bit. The Doctrines specifically say their AP buffs do not stack with other sources like Storm of Fire.

[Kythnos]

One thing on DttfE: while ours is effected by negative modifiers, it is also effected by positive ones. So we can make it work on 5s, 4s or even 3s, if we put in all available modifiers.

[Midnight Brotherhood]

Midnight Brotherhood, one small point in your narrative: you got cheated a bit. The Doctrines specifically say their AP buffs do not stack with other sources like Storm of Fire.

 

Oh we didn't realise that, it was his first outing with the codex too so I'll let him know. That would have made quite a difference to my marines in cover, thanks Ferrum!

 

I've been going back through this thread during my saltiness and reading the advice of other members here and how they are adapting to the numarines. I think I myself need to adapt too on reflection and perhaps build my list in different ways and try different methods of attack. So thank you to everyone who has contributed in this thread in the past for idea.

 

Here was our lists just incase anyone is interested, we played The Four Pillars mission from CA 2018. 4 Obj on the board, one in each quarter and you get 1VP a turn holding MORE than your opponent and D3 if you hold all 4. You also get a VP for destroying more units than your opponent per battle round. He won 8 - 6 after 6 battle rounds.

 

They don't show on battlescribe but I took the Out of the Night warlord trait on my jump pack lord and took stormbolt plate on the sorceror (which helped him immensely). This is using my entire collection btw so I don't have any other models I can use.

 

Night Lords:

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [55 PL, 8CP, 1,059pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Legion: Night Lords

 

+ HQ +

 

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 100pts]: Benediction of Darkness, Mark of Tzeentch, Mutating Invocation

Sorcerer [6 PL, 103pts]: Delightful Agonies, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh, Plasma pistol, Warptime

 

+ Troops +

 

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 52pts]: Mark of Slaanesh

. 8x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun

. Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Heavy stubber

. Cultist Champion: Shotgun

 

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 56pts]: Mark of Slaanesh

. 8x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon

. Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon: Flamer

. Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol

 

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 87pts]: No Chaos Mark

. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter

. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun

. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher

 

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 77pts]: Mark of Slaanesh

. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter

. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun

. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Heavy bolter

 

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 87pts]: Mark of Slaanesh

. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter

. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun

. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Reaper chaincannon

 

+ Elites +

 

Chosen [6 PL, 125pts]: Mark of Slaanesh

. Chosen Champion: Combi-bolter, Power axe

. Chosen w/ Lightning Claw: 2x Lightning Claw

. Chosen w/ Lightning Claw: 2x Lightning Claw

. Chosen w/ Lightning Claw: 2x Lightning Claw

. Chosen w/ Lightning Claw: 2x Lightning Claw

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Defiler [9 PL, 144pts]: Combi-bolter, Defiler scourge, Mark of Slaanesh, Reaper autocannon

 

Havocs [7 PL, 142pts]: Mark of Slaanesh

. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter

. 2x Havoc w/ autocannon: 2x Autocannon

. 2x Havoc w/ lascannon: 2x Lascannon

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 86pts]: Combi-bolter, Combi-flamer, Havoc launcher, Mark of Slaanesh

 

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [20 PL, 1CP, 393pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [1CP]

Legion: Night Lords

 

+ HQ +

 

Chaos Lord with Jump Pack [6 PL, 105pts]: Claws of the Black Hunt, 2x Lightning Claw, Mark of Slaanesh, Warlord

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Chaos Spawn [4 PL, 50pts]: 2x Chaos Spawn, Mark of Slaanesh

 

Raptors [5 PL, 112pts]: Mark of Slaanesh

. 2x Raptor

. Raptor Champion: Combi-plasma, Power sword

. Raptor w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

. Raptor w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

 

Raptors [5 PL, 126pts]: Icon of Despair, Mark of Nurgle

. 2x Raptor

. Raptor Champion: Combi-plasma, Lightning Claw

. Raptor w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

. Raptor w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

 

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [28 PL, , 546pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [1CP]

Gifts of Chaos (1 Relic) [-1CP]

Legion: Night Lords

 

+ HQ +

 

Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour [6 PL, 121pts]: Chainfist, Combi-melta, Mark of Slaanesh

 

+ Elites +

 

Chaos Terminators [10 PL, 199pts]: Mark of Slaanesh

. Chaos Terminator Champion: Combi-plasma, Power sword

. Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power fist

. Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power fist

. Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power fist

. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Chainfist, Reaper autocannon

 

Helbrute [6 PL, 114pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, Multi-melta

. Helbrute fist: Combi-bolter

 

Helbrute [6 PL, 112pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, Power scourge, Twin heavy bolter

 

++ Total: [103 PL, 9CP, 1,998pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe

 

For my opponent he had from what I remember:

 

1 Captain in Gravis Armour

1 Lieutenant

1 Librarian

1 Chaplain

10 Devastator Marines - 2x Lascannon 2x Missile Launcher

5 Tactical Marines - Plasma gun

5 Tactical Marines

5 Scouts - 4 snipers, 1 heavy bolter

Land Raider with the inferno cannons

5 Assault Terminators w/ Thunder hammers and storm shields

3 Centurions with grav cannons and hurricane bolters

1 Whirlwind

5  Assault Marines - power fist on serf

5 Assault Marines

1 Redemptor Dreadnought

1 Standard Dreadnought

 

Out of all that stuff I managed to kill the units in red. Turn 6 I was tabled. On reflection there are some things I was happy with, the Defiler did amazing and the havocs contributed quite well. I just need to change my buff placements and what I'm buffing. I'm thinking I might try using the Dark Apostles 5+ invuln prayer and just run him with the helbrutes, rhino, and spawn up a flank with a rabble of cultists while the marines hold the objectives. Hopefully scary enough to take fire off them. Here a few photos I took in the early couple of turns.

 

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Midnight Brotherhood

[TrawlingCleaner]

Midnight, those Night lords are absolutely gorgeous!

 

Games wise, maybe ask your friend if he wouldn't mind house ruling some stuff? An example is in my group we allow grey knights, dark angels etc (not applicable here), access to the Litanies until they get their own, or DttFE goes off unmodified for all chaos armies and when I play my Iron Hands I don't use doctrines or doctrine bonuses. I find that doctrines really unbalance the scales even when using a very fluffy list against a geared up list.

 

Maybe try playing a few more games tweaking your list and then talk about what stuff you could house rule to make things a little more even. (I totally understand not everyone likes to houserule stuff though)

[Kain Mor]

It's almost like adding gimmicks and stratagems to a broken and CP starved army doesn't fix anything! Who knew? Edited November 19, 2019 by Kain Mor

[Lord_Starscream]

It's almost like adding gimmicks and stratagems to a broken and CP starved army doesn't fix anything! Who knew?

 

That's before taking points, or even outright stats into account either. :|

[Closet Skeleton]

I feel you midnight. Not only am I refusing to play loyalist marine players right now I'm just out of the hobby for the most part. Painting some stuff I have left over. Not giving GW another dime until the creep is addressed. I've read most of what the main chaos Legions got but it still doesn't even come close to the doctrine b.s.

 

To be honest I wouldn't want to use my new marines against chaos either. Don't see why they didn't just throw in a rule that stopped it working against power armour so that marine vs marine matches didn't end so quickly.

 

It's almost like adding gimmicks and stratagems to a broken and CP starved army doesn't fix anything! Who knew?

 

Gimmicks and stratagems are basically all there is to the 2.0 loyalist book. The only other thing they really got was +1 wound on a few old units and I guess the warsuit and a bunch of models they're technically had for a while despite them not being in the codex.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Closet Skeleton

[Lord_Starscream]

 

I feel you midnight. Not only am I refusing to play loyalist marine players right now I'm just out of the hobby for the most part. Painting some stuff I have left over. Not giving GW another dime until the creep is addressed. I've read most of what the main chaos Legions got but it still doesn't even come close to the doctrine b.s.

 

To be honest I wouldn't want to use my new marines against chaos either. Don't see why they didn't just throw in a rule that stopped it working against power armour so that marine vs marine matches didn't end so quickly.

 

It's almost like adding gimmicks and stratagems to a broken and CP starved army doesn't fix anything! Who knew?

 

Gimmicks and stratagems are basically all there is to the 2.0 loyalist book. The only other thing they really got was +1 wound on a few old units and I guess the warsuit and a bunch of models they're technically had for a while despite them not being in the codex.

 

 

 

Infiltrators that shut down deepstrikes for the purposes of melee or optimized firing positions. Longer ranged weaponry on basic infantry, and said weaponry hits harder with -1 AP too. Executioner Tanks. Repulsors. 

[Closet Skeleton]

 

Infiltrators that shut down deepstrikes for the purposes of melee or optimized firing positions. Longer ranged weaponry on basic infantry, and said weaponry hits harder with -1 AP too. Executioner Tanks. Repulsors. 

 

 

Except for the Executioner they had all that stuff for months before the new codex and even for the Executioner you had silly people declaring it dead after the price increase. Repulsors are two years old and had no changes to their datasheet and were considered completely unusable on release.

 

In 2017 my plague marine based death guard could walk over any primaris army, it was points drops and a army wide patch rule that changed that.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Closet Skeleton

[Lord_Starscream]

 

 

Infiltrators that shut down deepstrikes for the purposes of melee or optimized firing positions. Longer ranged weaponry on basic infantry, and said weaponry hits harder with -1 AP too. Executioner Tanks. Repulsors. 

 

 

Except for the Executioner they had all that stuff for months before the new codex and even for the Executioner you had silly people declaring it dead after the price increase. Repulsors are two years old and had no changes to their datasheet and were considered completely unusable on release.

 

In 2017 my plague marine based death guard could walk over any primaris army, it was points drops and a army wide patch rule that changed that.

 

 

To be fair, I've thought CSM have been done for a while. 

[techsoldaten]

 

Obliterators don't work against Triple Repulsors. Most people running them know to screen past 24".

 

Infiltrators make deep strikers ineffective in general. What's worked for me is massed lascannons and Daemon Primarchs. Thousand Sons have some hard counters for them too.

 

Interestingly in my time using Oblits since the chaos codex re-up I have actually never seen a successful screen against an Oblit drop that zoned out a 24 inch range threat by turn 2. 

 

Usually no matter the army there are viable important targets you can reach out and touch with the Oblits, some form of important unit, important walker, tank, or other viable target is within range even if they zone out a portion of the board. 

 

Infiltrators in particular are difficult due to the increased range but I have found that they do in fact die just like other Primaris, usually quick application of Plasma can plug the squad quickly enough and it doesn't become an issue as of yet. depending on terrain, deployment type, and other things such as both army comps of course. Varies alot per list and opponent. 

 

 

Look at it this way.

 

In a Triple Repulsor list, the most important units are the 3 Repulsors. Inflitrators, with Infiltrate and the 12" deep strike deny bubble, create a screen that cover 36" on the board.

 

Sure, there will be games where Chaos kills enough Inflitrators to create a LZ for the Obliterators in range of the tanks. How often is that going to happen? In my experience, not often by turn 2. And by turn 3, those Repulsors have eaten a large part of a Chaos army.

 

For that matter, it doesn't have to be Infiltrators. The Gatling Cannon, the Twin Heavy Bolter and the Heavy Stubber have 30"+ range. You can screen with anything and still be out of range for Obliterators.

[MegaVolt87]

Going more ground mobile with melta bike units, melta raptors, hammer jump lords might do it. Though going all in so some of them make it through the firestorm- 2 hammer jump lords, x3 raptor squads, x3 biker squads. Oblits are bad IMO. 

[Heliomanes]

My two cents, after getting steamrolled by the New Marines a few times;
The issue still seems to be survivability. Nothing in the Chaos roster really survives multiple Centurion and Inceptor drops with their layered bonuses. Plaguebearer mobs did well for a while, but even they crumble to the weight of rerollable firepower - and nothing in the Chaos Marine codex comes close as an "anchor". We have cheap troops, some good HQs and plenty of offensive drops of our own - but we lack staying power, and an anchored table presence.

I'd be happy to hear how the rest of you deal with this. I've even contemplated building a list around a base of multiple Moirax Knights just to have some sustainable units and objective grabbers/holders that don't die to a stiff breeze.