Chaos vs. New Marines

[Aothaine]

I mean... you could just use three tri-lascannon predators and three quad lascannon Havoc squads. If you're having problems with armour. Bring anti-armour. Sure it is more expensive and more fragile than the Space Marines right now. But it is what we have until our update next year. Chaos Space Marines are getting a new codex and I imagine it will come in the same fashion that the Space Marines were released. We will have a main dex with supplements filing out everything special about each legion. Even Black Legion should be getting their own supplement. I almost don't want to type this next part.... Have faith.

 

 

Edit: Has anyone tried using Iron Warriors 20-man CSM squads with the never fail morale warlord trait?

Edited November 19, 2019 by Aothaine

[Marshal Loss]

But it is what we have until our update next year. Chaos Space Marines are getting a new codex and I imagine it will come in the same fashion that the Space Marines were released. We will have a main dex with supplements filing out everything special about each legion. Even Black Legion should be getting their own supplement. I almost don't want to type this next part.... Have faith.

 

This is a prediction without base and should not be presented as fact. You do not know that we are getting a new codex, you do not know that we will have supplements filling out everything special about each Legion, and you do not know that these things will come next year. This kind of supposition doesn't help anybody, so please stop posting it.

 

Edit: Has anyone tried using Iron Warriors 20-man CSM squads with the never fail morale warlord trait?

 

Marine blobs are not effective at all in the current environment, even ones that are immune to morale.

 

---

 

Anyway, I've got my first game with the new rules against a Salamanders army this weekend, and will be running a big blob of Possessed, which I am planning to buff into the stratosphere with the new Word Bearers shenanigans. I will report back here with my thoughts after I've been sent scurrying back to the Eye of Terror. :P

[MegaVolt87]

That's the thing with CSM now, you have to go all in for certain things to solve problems. CSM need one trick ponies/ deathstars to compete, while SM's can do balanced lists and still be effective. Balanced all rounder CSM disappeared with the 3.5 dex. If the specialization is forced on us, we should be king at it with the weaknesses we have now in doing so to make it worth it. Marine design has been jack of all trades with good all rounder builds, CSM has drifted into specialist lists that are ineffective or mediocre. PA 2 has added a bit more width not depth for CSM. Whats worse, 2.0 SM has opened up specialist SM builds as well, so SM have effective all comers builds and specialist builds now.

 

On a positive note, PA 2 opens up new interesting specialist builds for us so there is some good there. Keep in mind we haven't seen what chaos knights and demons are getting with PA which can further help us also later on. Future lost and damned + dark mechanicum is also a forlorn hope in the future too. 

[Excessus]

Made a separate topic for the terminator model discussion since it's offtopic but still good info.

[Aothaine]

On a positive note, PA 2 opens up new interesting specialist builds for us so there is some good there. Keep in mind we haven't seen what chaos knights and demons are getting with PA which can further help us also later on. Future lost and damned + dark mechanicum is also a forlorn hope in the future too. 

 

Chaos Knights are simple. Three double Avenger Gatling Cannon Big walkers with a smattering of smaller dudes for objective collection. Boom. Instant fun for you. Also, prepare the tap dancing music.

 

Edit: Ohhh right on topic!

 

I think PS2 has given CSM a lot of tools to mess around with the new rules. But most of it is going to work best in narrative games. The real update is going to happen next summer imho. Planning for that release myself.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Aothaine

[MasterDeath]

On the risk that I out myself as a non-tourny player: Have you considered Forgefiends? I see people praising the Autocannon of all things as the way to go. A Forgefiend with 2 Hades AC (146 pts. or 160 pts., depending on Ectoplasma or not) can dish out firepower similar to a Havoc squad with 4 AC (121 pts with a Plasma Champion) while being more beefy. Hits less good, wounds better and imho more support options. (Warpsmith, Master of Posession, Stratagems). Again, I am not into tourrnaments.

[Prot]

On the risk that I out myself as a non-tourny player: Have you considered Forgefiends? I see people praising the Autocannon of all things as the way to go. A Forgefiend with 2 Hades AC (146 pts. or 160 pts., depending on Ectoplasma or not) can dish out firepower similar to a Havoc squad with 4 AC (121 pts with a Plasma Champion) while being more beefy. Hits less good, wounds better and imho more support options. (Warpsmith, Master of Posession, Stratagems). Again, I am not into tourrnaments.

 

I think most of us have tried Forgefiends, and while fun, they do feel like they are an edition or two out of date. For stuff like that where GW isn't going to see a ton of new sales from kits, I think (personally) we have to see what Chapter Approved does for point costs on units like this. To me that's where most of the 'hope' lies in getting that generation of stuff functional in the current NuMarine meta.

 

Someone mentioned one trick ponies. It's been like that for a while, but most of the tricks have come in two flavours: 1. Forgeworld.IE: Purge + Levi / Deredeo's were probably the top billing for competitive play since Chaos 2.0 (update) release. That's come and gone. 2. mix in daemons. Just like most "Thousand Sons" armies where you have Ahriman, Daemon Princes and chaff.... a lot of quality chaff came from Daemon codex units... especially Plague bearers, and maybe a 20 man Bloodletter bomb, but that's beyond the scope of our codex conversation. I don't think Chaff will work anymore. 

 

A 'trick' we have... can't call it a one trick pony really, is the psychic phase. Our dabbling in it is probably only secondary to Eldar with their common combo's of Jinx, etc.  But we didn't really see that happen in PA yet. 

[techsoldaten]

 

On the risk that I out myself as a non-tourny player: Have you considered Forgefiends? I see people praising the Autocannon of all things as the way to go. A Forgefiend with 2 Hades AC (146 pts. or 160 pts., depending on Ectoplasma or not) can dish out firepower similar to a Havoc squad with 4 AC (121 pts with a Plasma Champion) while being more beefy. Hits less good, wounds better and imho more support options. (Warpsmith, Master of Posession, Stratagems). Again, I am not into tourrnaments.

 

I think most of us have tried Forgefiends, and while fun, they do feel like they are an edition or two out of date. For stuff like that where GW isn't going to see a ton of new sales from kits, I think (personally) we have to see what Chapter Approved does for point costs on units like this. To me that's where most of the 'hope' lies in getting that generation of stuff functional in the current NuMarine meta.

 

Forgefiends would have been perfect in 5th edition, with the old vehicle damage table. The problem with them now is they die too easily, just like Maulerfiends. Unlike Maulerfiends, there's no possibility of getting into combat unless you are using them wrong.

 

The one Forgefiend combo I like (for fun games) is 3 of them with Abaddon for rerolls to hit and a MoP for Cursed Earth. Not as efficient as Deredeos, but interesting to see on the battlefield.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

On the risk that I out myself as a non-tourny player: Have you considered Forgefiends? I see people praising the Autocannon of all things as the way to go. A Forgefiend with 2 Hades AC (146 pts. or 160 pts., depending on Ectoplasma or not) can dish out firepower similar to a Havoc squad with 4 AC (121 pts with a Plasma Champion) while being more beefy. Hits less good, wounds better and imho more support options. (Warpsmith, Master of Posession, Stratagems). Again, I am not into tourrnaments.

 

I think most of us have tried Forgefiends, and while fun, they do feel like they are an edition or two out of date. For stuff like that where GW isn't going to see a ton of new sales from kits, I think (personally) we have to see what Chapter Approved does for point costs on units like this. To me that's where most of the 'hope' lies in getting that generation of stuff functional in the current NuMarine meta.

 

Someone mentioned one trick ponies. It's been like that for a while, but most of the tricks have come in two flavours: 1. Forgeworld.IE: Purge + Levi / Deredeo's were probably the top billing for competitive play since Chaos 2.0 (update) release. That's come and gone. 2. mix in daemons. Just like most "Thousand Sons" armies where you have Ahriman, Daemon Princes and chaff.... a lot of quality chaff came from Daemon codex units... especially Plague bearers, and maybe a 20 man Bloodletter bomb, but that's beyond the scope of our codex conversation. I don't think Chaff will work anymore. 

 

A 'trick' we have... can't call it a one trick pony really, is the psychic phase. Our dabbling in it is probably only secondary to Eldar with their common combo's of Jinx, etc.  But we didn't really see that happen in PA yet. 

 

Word Bearers make a great addition for the Psychic Phase. A guy in Terminator Armor or w/ a Jump Pack (or a Winged Daemon Prince) who can auto-cast Death Hex or Warp-Time is going to be a big help, especially if he can survive sniper fire via things like Hexagrammatic Ward long enough to get his job done.

 

I've seen some talk on Goonhammer and elsewhere about the possibility of a competitive Word Bearers Supreme Command with a mix of Sorcerers and Apostles and a big Possessed Bomb. Being able to add 2 prayers, plus a reliable +1Damage and extra attacks to Possessed while able to auto-cast Warp Time and get +1 on other casts in the meantime seems to have potential. We'll see how it is in practice.

[Aothaine]

Just keep in mind this is only going to be a temporary fix. GW has shown that they are starting to give bonuses to mono faction armies. I suspect this is going to roll over into the CSM and Eldar armies as well. It is one of the things that is really going to help spice up the meta. Unless you have a lot of disposable income I would most likely avoid building armies built around multiple factions. 

 

That is a really interesting idea for a Word Bearers army for sure. It has a lot of components that have to fall in place though. Seem more like a hit or miss type approach. When it works it will be amazing to see but I imagine most times it will fail though.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Just keep in mind this is only going to be a temporary fix. GW has shown that they are starting to give bonuses to mono faction armies. I suspect this is going to roll over into the CSM and Eldar armies as well. It is one of the things that is really going to help spice up the meta. Unless you have a lot of disposable income I would most likely avoid building armies built around multiple factions. 

 

That is a really interesting idea for a Word Bearers army for sure. It has a lot of components that have to fall in place though. Seem more like a hit or miss type approach. When it works it will be amazing to see but I imagine most times it will fail though.

The Word Bearer's force I listed is one detachment to add spice to whatever you're fielding, not the crux of an army. All of the characters can help with whatever else you're doing. Also, the +1 Damage is a Strat, which USUALLY can't fail, and the Warp Time to get the Possessed up the field also can't fail, though there is a slim chance of denial. Hexagrammatic Ward also makes the characters REALLY hard to remove. Not perfect, but quite reliable, it seems.

[MegaVolt87]

Just keep in mind this is only going to be a temporary fix. GW has shown that they are starting to give bonuses to mono faction armies. I suspect this is going to roll over into the CSM and Eldar armies as well. It is one of the things that is really going to help spice up the meta. Unless you have a lot of disposable income I would most likely avoid building armies built around multiple factions. 

 

That is a really interesting idea for a Word Bearers army for sure. It has a lot of components that have to fall in place though. Seem more like a hit or miss type approach. When it works it will be amazing to see but I imagine most times it will fail though.

 

If you actually like CSM, multi faction is not really a problem because it could be expanded out as a second CSM force when we end up with similar to SM's rewarding mono dex/supplement armies later. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Just keep in mind this is only going to be a temporary fix. GW has shown that they are starting to give bonuses to mono faction armies. I suspect this is going to roll over into the CSM and Eldar armies as well. It is one of the things that is really going to help spice up the meta. Unless you have a lot of disposable income I would most likely avoid building armies built around multiple factions. 

 

That is a really interesting idea for a Word Bearers army for sure. It has a lot of components that have to fall in place though. Seem more like a hit or miss type approach. When it works it will be amazing to see but I imagine most times it will fail though.

 

If you actually like CSM, multi faction is not really a problem because it could be expanded out as a second CSM force when we end up with similar to SM's rewarding mono dex/supplement armies later. 

 

Not to mention, canonically, CSM's "soup" quite often and you have Black Legion Stratagems and abilities specifically designed to facilitate a multifaction army of Heretic Astartes (Abaddon, Chosen Enforcers, Legacy of Horus, etc.).

[Aothaine]

Ohh for sure. Playing Chaos soup is awesome and thematic. But it just seems like GW is really pushing mono armies. All I was suggesting is that you be careful going all in on multi-faction armies because you might want to play mono faction more later. I didn't mean to suggest that multi-faction armies were bad or that they were not thematic. My apologies if it came across that way.

 

It is also a great idea! I love that the Word Bearers have something unique, thematic, and really cool! 

[Aothaine]

For those that might have missed it. The new rumors for CA 2019 say cult troops will be getting switched to 2W each! Man I hope this is true! :D

[Kain Mor]

They all rumor sweeping point drops on Space Marines, so I’d check your enthusiasm when we’re still a month out and the leaks are very flimsy.

[Brom MKIV]

I just read something similar. Also that CA seems to have missed the mark on most of the rest.. IMO. SM getting further pts breaks being the main one I'm thinking of. And csm and oblits not getting any breaks. Edit for ninjas..

Edited November 21, 2019 by Brom MKIV

[Aothaine]

They all rumor sweeping point drops on Space Marines, so I’d check your enthusiasm when we’re still a month out and the leaks are very flimsy.

 

 

Month out? My friend. 12/7/2019 is only two weeks away. Isn't that when they release CA?

[Khornestar]

 

They all rumor sweeping point drops on Space Marines, so I’d check your enthusiasm when we’re still a month out and the leaks are very flimsy.

 

 

 

Month out? My friend. 12/7/2019 is only two weeks away. Isn't that when they release CA?

Yup, I do believe you’re right.

[Sonoftherubric21]

They all rumor sweeping point drops on Space Marines, so I’d check your enthusiasm when we’re still a month out and the leaks are very flimsy.

 

EVERY single rumor I have seen keeps saying "2 wound cult marines" so at some point the echo in the chamber gotta be coming from *somewhere* and I think that one may be legit. 

 

The rest are logical assumptions for sure. and I am sure by "Sweeping points drops" what they are referring to is the other loyalist books. Plenty to pick from. 

[Kain Mor]

Also consistent with the 2W rumor is points raises for chaos, which is the last thing we need right now. I certainly won’t be paying even more points for units that are already over costed just because they have two wounds. If two wounds made that big a difference, bikes and terminators wouldn’t be so laughable and aggressors wouldn’t have been buffed to 3.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Also consistent with the 2W rumor is points raises for chaos, which is the last thing we need right now. I certainly won’t be paying even more points for units that are already over costed just because they have two wounds. If two wounds made that big a difference, bikes and terminators wouldn’t be so laughable and aggressors wouldn’t have been buffed to 3.

 

Can you give me more then the most recent citation for "points increases for chaos" beyond the Plauges and Discordants? I didn't see any personally. 

 

I haven't seen "other chaos units will get point increases" at all. I saw the Plauge and Discordants, and 2 wound Cult troops but nothing beyond that except for what dropped today. 

[MegaVolt87]

FW units are getting a thorough review apparently. Guess my Falchion will have some company on the shelf now... 

[Aztek]

FW units are getting a thorough review apparently. Guess my Falchion will have some company on the shelf now... 

Crosses fingers for my Chaos Fire Raptor.

[Guzzlrr]

Ohh for sure. Playing Chaos soup is awesome and thematic. But it just seems like GW is really pushing mono armies. All I was suggesting is that you be careful going all in on multi-faction armies because you might want to play mono faction more later. I didn't mean to suggest that multi-faction armies were bad or that they were not thematic. My apologies if it came across that way.

 

It is also a great idea! I love that the Word Bearers have something unique, thematic, and really cool! 

 

I dont really wanna use duel Factions i like playing mono but as people have already mentioned, its not like we're doing our selves any favors by staying mono starting to think perhaps Soup should be on the menu.

 

as for the two wound cults. i don't like the sounds of that, cults are already bloody expensive nevermind without a extra tax with he wound because god forbid our guys actually be decently priced.