Chaos vs. New Marines

[DreamIsCollapsing]

The 2 wounds for cult troop isnt a Rumor, it's just a whishlist.

 

If you want a rumor i can give you one : 8th edition stop in june with a 9th edition. It wont be a change like 7 to 8th. Think of it rather like the AoS V2.

All codex are to be remade for this 9th edition.

 

The new codex SM and the codex Adeptas sororitas are already "9th edition codex". So expect buff for mono army, and a new SMC codex. It will be after june (but it can be june, it can be summer or after one year of 9th edition).

Like for SM, Vigilus special detachment will be forgoten, looks like those were a dead end.

 

Obviously i wont reveal the source of this rumor/leak. I got no proof, so you can believe it, or not.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Well the French leaks and a bunch of other sites and rumors I saw said cult marines are going to 2w, and I heard far fewer rumors but some about a "new" edition next summer. Not so much a wishlist.

[Excessus]

Well, if I were making fake rumours i would definitely have the 2w cult models rumour in it since It's well spread and popular. 

 

Just saying...

[DreamIsCollapsing]

@Putrid Choir : This is false, no french leak on the two wounds for cult troops. It juste have been reported on french forum.

 

Doesnt mean it's false, but it doesnt come from nor confirmed by french leak.

[techsoldaten]

The 2 wounds for cult troop isnt a Rumor, it's just a whishlist.

 

If you want a rumor i can give you one : 8th edition stop in june with a 9th edition. It wont be a change like 7 to 8th. Think of it rather like the AoS V2.

All codex are to be remade for this 9th edition.

 

The new codex SM and the codex Adeptas sororitas are already "9th edition codex". So expect buff for mono army, and a new SMC codex. It will be after june (but it can be june, it can be summer or after one year of 9th edition).

Like for SM, Vigilus special detachment will be forgoten, looks like those were a dead end.

 

Obviously i wont reveal the source of this rumor/leak. I got no proof, so you can believe it, or not.

 

I would agree with this rumor based on a few things.

 

- Going back to 7th edition, Traitor's Hate and Traitor Legions were released just prior to a new edition. My impression was GW was beta testing some new rules to see how they impact the meta. I get the same sense with PA, only they're doing it across the board with all factions. Feels like PA is less about game balance and more about understanding who still cares about these factions.

 

- GW sees a lot of profit from selling books. Supposedly, they're cheaper to make than finished sprues. They have investors and need to keep up a steady stream of releases.

 

- 8th edition, for all it's faults, is an improvement over the bloat of 6th / 7th edition. GW would not want to throw this away, it's progress.

 

- We're seeing a lot of power imbalance between the Codexes. I don't think that gets fixed with more Codexes, that just makes the problem worse. They need to return armies to index levels to make all factions playable.

 

I would disagree with this rumor based on a few things.

 

- There's still PA books to come out. I doubt GW is going to release new rules within 6 months of a new edition. That makes players mad and GW turned that corner a while ago.

 

- There's still a lot of work to do on Primaris Marines. They have a lot of HQs, infantry choices, a couple tanks / dreads, and nothing else. I would think GW would want to do some releases before moving on.

 

- There's a persistent rumor about a new non-Imperial faction coming out. I'd think they would want that as part of 8th edition, it would give them a chance to have something that's totally OP and gets toned down when the new edition is released.

 

- I personally don't like new editions, not while I'm still building armies for the current edition. I don't think anyone else does either. There's a lot of recently released stuff people are building against, it would be very jarring to find out they are useless in 9th.

[Brom MKIV]

To return to the original topic for a moment.. 

 

I am seeing a literal metric ton of tools at our disposal now.

The issue, for some at least, is that going mono legion is not how the faction has been designed.. cool as that would be. We've been compartmentalized so to me combining legions is what is needed to compete with marines. The good news is that each legion has a pseudo second legion trait in the form of dttfe. I know its not new but I think we all gloss that when looking at nu marines. CSM has a strictly superior version of whirlwind of rage against all non xenos. 

 

As for the meta, its a marine meta I think we all agree on that. So the tools I personally am building with revolve around volume of d2 weaponry, high RoF AI and I am moving away from dedicated ranged AT almost completely. this is something I've been testing across various factions and I haven't really missed it like I thought I would. So how does chaos (I'm speaking mostly pure here not daemons/knights in this post) solve the marine meta?

 

To me its by alternate deployment rules, anti primaris, resilience to oolos attacks, assault delivery, optimizing screens, threat density.

On that note, these are my main thought processes atm, and considering I've done the walker spam thing.. 

 

-Characters

Chaos has more tools than ever before to make the most blendy characters in the game. Preferably with fly keyword. Using these characters to destroy screens and even entire units is what they're designed for. Delivery and protection are the questions. Builds to me should be slightly less focused on dedicated smash varieties than in the past. I'm looking at WE, NL, EC as the main heavy hitters due to relic, strat, trait access.

 

-D2 weaponry 

Again we've been handed some incredible tools. EC noise marines for example are custom made for anti primaris duty. On these dudes excruciating frequencies is a better version of votlw and thats saying something. No to mention it stacks. This is the backbone of a list intending to take it to marines on their own terms of lethality IMO. Then consider if they do reach combat they now have access to ap3 via cruel duelists.. just as an aside. Stellar troops choice in marine world.

 

-Screens

We need to reevaluate everything including screens and what the definition is. Cultists are definitely back on the menu. IW and AL in particular. But we need to consider screen units that can actually pose a threat. 

For an off the wall example lets consider...

NL spawns and hear me out. I feel we need options to go 'underneath' marines in terms of value while maintaining a high threat density similar to what they can throw down. Thats nearly impossible but some units can do it. In this case spawns are 6.25 ppw, 4w T5, S5 ap2 d2 can screen (more on that later) and have Ld9 while handing out -2 to enemy Ld. This means they can effectively assault forward deployed units hitting on 3s potentially ignoring power armour or rerolling wounds- thanks to MBR and prey on the weak. Plus their t5 means they can survive return damage. They also trigger several other incredible strats. 

As for screening duty, their T5 4w means that they excel at protecting key alpha legion units slogging after potentially popping fwd ops. 

 

On that note, I've been brewing with combat focused NL chaos marines. I'm talking undivided 6 chainswords and a chainaxe. For 66 pts these guys throw out 16 attacks (4 chainaxe) hitting on 2s (off prey or even from the night) triggering dttfe on 5s. yea not mainline cc but compulsory choices that occupy space, score and threaten to assault screening units means they could find a place as 1-2 ofs.  

We can't do concealed positions but we can push back keeping them in their DZ or risk losing their units to more cheaply costed units.

Other 'screens' I'm considering include lord of distraction (clandestine disco for -2 to hit) and lord arkos who can be given up to -3 to hit inherently. 

 

-oolos resilience. This factors into spawn screens aka 'units that don't get deleted when looked at'. Also feel like rhinos are back with the return of noise marines. Now also worthwhile for protecting chain havocs if going second.. right before they jump out and renascent infiltrate to solve their range issues.

 

-Assault delivery

Finally! Jump troops are back on the menu. WE (well they kinda were here before) but now EC and NL too. For NL we actually have a really really nasty tactic now. DS 15 raptors with up to +4" off 3d6 rerollable. Thats enough to put this unit into every thunderfire cannon and eliminator in the castle and tie them all up. while vox screaming. I honestly think this is gonna take so many players by surprise. A potential 23" threat radius off DS is unprecedented. 

 

-lastly I'm stewing on exactly what dedicated AT I really need, considering a variety of character AT options at my disposal. The immediate option looks to be slogging oblits- with the option to DS or renascent infiltrate should the game state develop differently than predicted after deployment. Slogging to center field while being untargetable though represents the biggest potential threat for any army built around castling and DS beta strikes.. so thats where I'm gonna start.

 

 

Anyway thats my early ideas on how to deal with nu marines using only csm. I've got tons of FW too but I'm wanting to try something new atm.. 

[Sonoftherubric21]

Nicely put Brom!  I like how you gave a solid rundown for list variants. I own a VERY large black legion army and as such will be taking advantage of various legions so I intend on mixing and matching certain units for the list. 

 

Its more about dealing damage and responding then it is about just having better stats or being able to take punishment in our case. 

 

I think that if we put out lots of damage it makes up for the other issues within the books. As you said our characters are hugely variable and some of the most dangerous single models in the game along with Noise Marines, Iron Warriors engines, Night Lords or EC Raptors, along with the (if need be) Heretical 17 would make for a very strong on-table list with solid utility. 

 

I think that as of the moment you are 100% right, we are a mutli-legion and multi-detachment book through-and-through. ATM it is required and I totally agree. 

[Slave to Darkness]

Kinda tempted at an all Possessed and Raptor/Talons list for my EC now... Sure not gonna win big but the thought of my mates face when charging all those assault troops into his Fist army will be priceless and worth it. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Nicely put Brom!  I like how you gave a solid rundown for list variants. I own a VERY large black legion army and as such will be taking advantage of various legions so I intend on mixing and matching certain units for the list. 

 

Its more about dealing damage and responding then it is about just having better stats or being able to take punishment in our case. 

 

I think that if we put out lots of damage it makes up for the other issues within the books. As you said our characters are hugely variable and some of the most dangerous single models in the game along with Noise Marines, Iron Warriors engines, Night Lords or EC Raptors, along with the (if need be) Heretical 17 would make for a very strong on-table list with solid utility. 

 

I think that as of the moment you are 100% right, we are a mutli-legion and multi-detachment book through-and-through. ATM it is required and I totally agree. 

Only nitpick I can see at the moment is that Spawn only give -1Ld because they aren't INFANTRY and therefore don't get the Legion Trait.

[Aothaine]

 

Anyway thats my early ideas on how to deal with nu marines using only csm. I've got tons of FW too but I'm wanting to try something new atm.. 

 

Great advice btw! Mono faction is going to be difficult until the CSM get their 9th ed codex but I really do think PA helps CSM a lot. They won't be top tier but you can make some pretty nasty lists with them. Also we don't need to worry about being all one legion right now I pretty sure right?

 

If you have a battalion that is Night Legion and another battalion that is Iron Warriors, they both get their legion trait right? Since we do not have disciplines yet forcing us to mono legion we can rock the "I'm have so many rules your brain melts" strategy.

 

So lets build on this. We're rocking three detatchments. What are we building?

 

1st Detachment Focus: Crowd Control (Emperor's Children)

 

Battalion - Emperor's Children

 

[HQ] - Melee Focused Lord

 

[HQ] - Sorcerer

 

[T] Noise Marines (6-man)

- All Sonic Blasters w/ banner

- Rhino

 

[T] Noise Marines (6-man)

- All Sonic Blasters w/ banner

- Rhino

 

[T] Noise Marines (6-man)

- All Sonic Blasters w/ banner

- Rhino

 

[HS] Obliterators

 

[HS] Obliterators

 

 

2nd Detachment Focus: Point Capture & Objectives

 

Battalion - Iron Hands Warriors

 

[HQ] Range Focused Lord

 

[HQ] Sorcerer

 

[T] Chaos Cultists (10-man) with guns

 

[T] Chaos Cultists (10-man) with guns

 

[T] Chaos Cultists (10-man) with guns

 

[HS] Havoc with quad lascannons

 

[HS] Havoc with quad lascannons

 

3rd Battalion Focus: Combat

 

Battalion: World Eaters

 

[HQ] Combat Lord

 

[HQ] Champion or Dark Apostle 

 

[T] Berserkers (8-man)

- Chainaxe and Bolt Pistol

- Rhino

 

[T] Berserkers (8-man)

- Chainaxe and Bolt Pistol

- Rhino

 

[T] Berserkers (8-man)

- Chainaxe and Bolt Pistol

- Rhino

 

 

Something like this maybe? Just as a first run through. Maybe make the World Eaters your warlord for that axe? I'm not sure.

[Brom MKIV]

 

Only nitpick I can see at the moment is that Spawn only give -1Ld because they aren't INFANTRY and therefore don't get the Legion Trait.

 

Ugh yes I always forget that good catch. Not a big impact since Ld 9 -1 to theirs is typically plenty.

 

 

@ Aothaine ya something like that looks like a functional place to start from.. CPs for days! High threat saturation, no real high value targets for their anti tank and most units are pretty lethal to SM. From there I'd want to trim a rhino or at least find a way to give the option for havocs to embark one as a flex opton. 

 

I think 7-8 man squads of NM are ideal btw. With the strat they are pt for pt way more efficient than the blastmaster.

 

Oblits I feel would be better in one unit as IW though. Allows the cultists to draw more fire and then the oblits can start blasting from t1 with a decent adv roll with potential for full mods. That said if you changed IW to AL then the list gets stronger IMO since that detachment doesn't really focus on what IW is about. Instead it gains the ability to tax CP with hydras wail, deny DS, better protect those oblits and redeploy units for scoring.  

 

Zerks should really have chainswords though. 

 

Anyway some of that assumes we sacrifice some theme for power concession. I typically like to build strong and then dial back to fit my for funsies stuff in. Like biker exodus!

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

Only nitpick I can see at the moment is that Spawn only give -1Ld because they aren't INFANTRY and therefore don't get the Legion Trait.

 

Ugh yes I always forget that good catch. Not a big impact since Ld 9 -1 to theirs is typically plenty.

 

 

@ Aothaine ya something like that looks like a functional place to start from.. CPs for days! High threat saturation, no real high value targets for their anti tank and most units are pretty lethal to SM. From there I'd want to trim a rhino or at least find a way to give the option for havocs to embark one as a flex opton. 

 

I think 7-8 man squads of NM are ideal btw. With the strat they are pt for pt way more efficient than the blastmaster.

 

Oblits I feel would be better in one unit as IW though. Allows the cultists to draw more fire and then the oblits can start blasting from t1 with a decent adv roll with potential for full mods. That said if you changed IW to AL then the list gets stronger IMO since that detachment doesn't really focus on what IW is about. Instead it gains the ability to tax CP with hydras wail, deny DS, better protect those oblits and redeploy units for scoring.  

 

Zerks should really have chainswords though. 

 

Anyway some of that assumes we sacrifice some theme for power concession. I typically like to build strong and then dial back to fit my for funsies stuff in. Like biker exodus!

 

For one unit of shooty Chosen or Plasma Terminators (as I mentioned in the NL subforum), it might be worth it for them to be Night Lords with an Icon of Vengeance. That +1 Leadership will help them use Prey on the Weak at range.

 

CC Chosen/Termies look to be best as EC/WE/NL.

 

Also don't forget that Bringers of Despair can stop ANY Heretic Astartes unit within range from running by spending 1CP, and things like Haarken, Legacy of Horus, etc. can also help soup armies.

 

Between Council of Traitors, We are Alpharius, and Apostle of the Dark Council, you could have an army with a fairly large number of buffed characters.

[Brom MKIV]

Hmm sounds like that might be worth exploring too! 

[Mallios]

2nd Detachment Focus: Point Capture & Objectives

 

Battalion - Iron Hands

 

[HQ] Range Focused Lord

 

[HQ] Sorcerer

 

[T] Chaos Cultists (10-man) with guns

 

[T] Chaos Cultists (10-man) with guns

 

[T] Chaos Cultists (10-man) with guns

 

[HS] Havoc with quad lascannons

 

[HS] Havoc with quad lascannons

 

 

Iron Who? ;)

The Cannon Fodder text, as rumored, specifies a specific Cultist unit, so I would think you'd want a full 30-man unit in order to have it last the full round of shooting, rather than just ten dudes.

[Aothaine]

 

 

@ Aothaine ya something like that looks like a functional place to start from.. CPs for days! High threat saturation, no real high value targets for their anti tank and most units are pretty lethal to SM. From there I'd want to trim a rhino or at least find a way to give the option for havocs to embark one as a flex opton. 

 

I think 7-8 man squads of NM are ideal btw. With the strat they are pt for pt way more efficient than the blastmaster.

 

Oblits I feel would be better in one unit as IW though. Allows the cultists to draw more fire and then the oblits can start blasting from t1 with a decent adv roll with potential for full mods. That said if you changed IW to AL then the list gets stronger IMO since that detachment doesn't really focus on what IW is about. Instead it gains the ability to tax CP with hydras wail, deny DS, better protect those oblits and redeploy units for scoring.  

 

Zerks should really have chainswords though. 

 

Anyway some of that assumes we sacrifice some theme for power concession. I typically like to build strong and then dial back to fit my for funsies stuff in. Like biker exodus!

 

 

Yeah changing the Iron Warriors to Alpha Legions is going to be the best bet there. I suppose you could dropthe noise marines units to 5-man (I was using 6 because that is Slaanesh's favorite number ) and drop two of them into one of the Rhinos. Then you can toss the extra rhino into the alpha legion detachment for the two havoc squads for alpha strike protection. 

 

Do you really think the one extra attack from the chainsword is necessary? The boys are already getting +1(Hateful Assault), +1(World Eater Legion) and fight twice. 

 

I thought Oblits were limited to 3 per unit? I could be wrong. Either way they need to be slannesh aligned for the strat to double fire for sure. But making them AL totally makes sense.

 

Ahhh gotcha! The 8-man berzerkers and 6-man noise marines were for fluff. I'm sure the points in this list are wracking up as well so I'm not sure how much else could be fit into the list. But getting 2 Melee Helbrutes in that list in the WE battalion would be ideal. Gives you extra smash and something that is really going to be able to shred tanks and take threat off the other elements of the army.

 

Battalion - Iron Warriors

 

Iron Who?

The Cannon Fodder text, as rumored, specifies a specific Cultist unit, so I would think you'd want a full 30-man unit in order to have it last the full round of shooting, rather than just ten dudes.

 

 

Not sure why you changed my comment to Iron Hands *shify eyes* lol!

 

Yeah gonna end up going AL instead of IW so the cultists are there mainly just to sit on points.

 

 

Edit:

 

Working on rebuilding the list a bit. I'll update this post in a bit.

 

Updated List

1st Detachment Focus: Crowd Control (Emperor's Children)

 

Battalion - Emperor's Children

 

[HQ] - Melee Focused Lord (Thunder Hammer Lord?)

 

[HQ] - Sorcerer

 

[T] Noise Marines (8-man)

- All Sonic Blasters w/ banner

- Rhino

 

[T] Noise Marines (5-man) (x2 in one rhino)

- All Sonic Blasters w/ banner

- Rhino

 

 

2nd Detachment Focus: Fire Base & Objectives

 

Battalion - Alpha Legion

 

[HQ] Range Focused Lord

 

[HQ] Sorcerer

 

[T] Chaos Cultists (10-man) with guns

 

[T] Chaos Cultists (10-man) with guns

 

[T] Chaos Cultists (10-man) with guns

 

[HS] Obliterators

- Slaanesh

 

[HS] Havoc with quad lascannons

- Slaanesh

 

[HS] Havoc with quad lascannons

- Slaanesh

 

3rd Battalion Focus: Combat

 

Battalion: World Eaters

 

[HQ] Combat Lord (In Rhino) (Possibly the warlord?)

 

[HQ] Champion or Dark Apostle 

 

[T] Berserkers (8-man)

- Chainaxe and Chainsword x9

- Powerfist and Chainsword x1? (This is legal right?)

- Rhino

 

[T] Berserkers (8-man)

- Chainaxe and Chainsword x9

- Powerfist and Chainsword x1? (This is legal right?)

- Rhino

 

[T] Berserkers (8-man)

- Chainaxe and Chainsword x9

- Powerfist and Chainsword x1? (This is legal right?)

- Rhino

 

[E] Helbrute (Fist x2 with heavy flamers)

 

[E] Helbrute (Fist x2 with heavy flamers)

 

 

Other Options:

 

Terminators with combi-bolters and power/chainfists, maybe just go double lightning claw? I dunno, I think giving them the combi-bolters is going to be super imporant. Not sure if these should be World Eaters or Emperor's Children though. There is also an argument for swapping out World Eaters for Night Lords but I'm hesitant to do that because you lose our on the absolute terror that Berserkers are. 

 

Instead of the Berserkers though you could potentially drop the third battalion, take a Outrider to get the raptor wing with Night Lords. That could cause some seriuosly good fun for sure. 

 

There is also the argument to try and squeeze in the heavy support specialist detachment as well.

 

This is all just theory by the way. I would not actually build this until I was for sure aware that Chaos is going to be able to still play soup safely. I really think GW is push mono-army and I think this is a really good way to normalize the meta and make even competitive games fun. But in the mean time... it doesn't hurt to have fun with theory crafting. Something else we can look into is mixing in Thousand Sons and Plague Marines. So happy this thread is turning this way. Thank you everyone again for the positive discussions! :D

[Sonoftherubric21]

 Perhaps Haarken will have a use following up a large unit of EC or NL Raptors. Wouldn't be bad with the bonuses you can get under either. 

 

He still needs a dang point drop though!!! 

[Brom MKIV]

PF/CS combo is totally legal. I don't consider myself a WE player but when I'm feeling saucy or can't decide on a list they're always my fall back for a good time.  Otherwise I usually just take 1-2 units of AL zerks. 

 

Now I'm not trying to talk anyone out of zerks. Nothing compares to their cc ability. But for those not running WE or specifically wanting to run NL check this:

5 csm, mos- icon, chainaxe, 5 chainswords.  Thats 17 attacks 4 of them S5 ap1. Crack prey on the weak and against marines we get dttfe triggering on 4s! 

 

Thats 16.24 hits from the chainswords and 5 from the chainaxe. From a csm unit. Scouts and even min sized infiltrators or incursors aren't going to like that lurking around where they want to concealed positions. Its not omgz but for a troops choice you gotta fill I think its better than what I've been running up to now so I plan on trying them.

 

For reference 5 WE zerks chainaxes/chainswords on the charge do 18.66 chainaxe hits and 4.44 chainsword hits with stoke the nails. Then fight again. So yea not even a comparison but still pretty cool.

 

 

Anyway on those lords I'd make most of them jump so they can swat aircraft and cover ground better. I know theres tons of rowdy combos but my current favorite is rapacious talons. On EC with excess of violence he can kill a full squad of primaris and has a pretty high chance of taking down a 10w flyer too. NL and WE are around the same due to their strats (+1 to hit, dttfe on 5s etc). NL also has a tasty looking slam lord with hammer and killing fury for 6-8 attacks and again +1 to hit for 1 cp. WE can make a reroll everything lord with a decent chance of mortal wounding girliman into his last rebirth.

 

EC has reroll everything lord with guaranteed charges too plus elixirs. God its like a smorgasbord of killers. 

 

 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I know it's not pure Codex: CSM, but it IS Heretic Astartes.....

 

Thousand Sons + Word Bearers could get scary. Having an auto-cast Warp Time or Death Hex available so that TS guys don't have to risk Perils could be great. Also another source of +1 to cast.....and those TS that have the Tzeentch Discipline would have nice synergy with Word Bearers Tzeentch Possessed.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

PF/CS combo is totally legal. I don't consider myself a WE player but when I'm feeling saucy or can't decide on a list they're always my fall back for a good time.  Otherwise I usually just take 1-2 units of AL zerks. 

 

Now I'm not trying to talk anyone out of zerks. Nothing compares to their cc ability. But for those not running WE or specifically wanting to run NL check this:

5 csm, mos- icon, chainaxe, 5 chainswords.  Thats 17 attacks 4 of them S5 ap1. Crack prey on the weak and against marines we get dttfe triggering on 4s! 

 

Thats 16.24 hits from the chainswords and 5 from the chainaxe. From a csm unit. Scouts and even min sized infiltrators or incursors aren't going to like that lurking around where they want to concealed positions. Its not omgz but for a troops choice you gotta fill I think its better than what I've been running up to now so I plan on trying them.

 

 

Anyway on those lords I'd make most of them jump so they can swat aircraft and cover ground better. I know theres tons of rowdy combos but my current favorite is rapacious talons. On EC with excess of violence he can kill a full squad of primaris and has a pretty high chance of taking down a 10w flyer too. NL and WE are around the same due to their strats (+1 to hit, dttfe on 5s etc). NL also has a tasty looking slam lord with hammer and killing fury for 6-8 attacks and again +1 to hit for 1 cp. WE can make a reroll everything lord with a decent chance of mortal wounding girliman into his last rebirth.

 

EC has reroll everything lord with guaranteed charges too plus elixirs. God its like a smorgasbord of killers. 

 

 

 

Brom, you ever think about a Slaanesh Alpha Legion Warpsmith with Headhunter (via we are Alpharius), a Combi-Melta, and the Mindveil? That might get crazy. If you can make it to 12 in, that's a pretty good chance of just removing a buffing character or small warlord. If people aren't REALLY careful, that could be a fair number of dead characters. A Hellwright could get even more nuts, but that's FW and not some people's thing.

 

EDIT: You could also do this with Renascent Infiltration. I could see a Slaanesh Termie Lord rigged with Viper's Bite and Head Hunter using Forward Operatives or deep strike to get close as your troops move up, shooting twice to murder a character at 24 in (once with Daemon Shell if necessary), and then using Renascent Infiltration to disappear and find somebody else next round.

[Aothaine]

All solid ideas btw! Loving this! :D

[Brom MKIV]

 

 

PF/CS combo is totally legal. I don't consider myself a WE player but when I'm feeling saucy or can't decide on a list they're always my fall back for a good time.  Otherwise I usually just take 1-2 units of AL zerks. 

 

Now I'm not trying to talk anyone out of zerks. Nothing compares to their cc ability. But for those not running WE or specifically wanting to run NL check this:

5 csm, mos- icon, chainaxe, 5 chainswords.  Thats 17 attacks 4 of them S5 ap1. Crack prey on the weak and against marines we get dttfe triggering on 4s! 

 

Thats 16.24 hits from the chainswords and 5 from the chainaxe. From a csm unit. Scouts and even min sized infiltrators or incursors aren't going to like that lurking around where they want to concealed positions. Its not omgz but for a troops choice you gotta fill I think its better than what I've been running up to now so I plan on trying them.

 

 

Anyway on those lords I'd make most of them jump so they can swat aircraft and cover ground better. I know theres tons of rowdy combos but my current favorite is rapacious talons. On EC with excess of violence he can kill a full squad of primaris and has a pretty high chance of taking down a 10w flyer too. NL and WE are around the same due to their strats (+1 to hit, dttfe on 5s etc). NL also has a tasty looking slam lord with hammer and killing fury for 6-8 attacks and again +1 to hit for 1 cp. WE can make a reroll everything lord with a decent chance of mortal wounding girliman into his last rebirth.

 

EC has reroll everything lord with guaranteed charges too plus elixirs. God its like a smorgasbord of killers. 

 

 

 

Brom, you ever think about a Slaanesh Alpha Legion Warpsmith with Headhunter (via we are Alpharius), a Combi-Melta, and the Mindveil? That might get crazy. If you can make it to 12 in, that's a pretty good chance of just removing a buffing character or small warlord. If people aren't REALLY careful, that could be a fair number of dead characters. A Hellwright could get even more nuts, but that's FW and not some people's thing.

 

EDIT: You could also do this with Renascent Infiltration. I could see a Slaanesh Termie Lord rigged with Viper's Bite and Head Hunter using Forward Operatives or deep strike to get close as your troops move up, shooting twice to murder a character at 24 in (once with Daemon Shell if necessary), and then using Renascent Infiltration to disappear and find somebody else next round.

 

 

I'd love to find a use for the mindveil and thats a pretty nifty idea especially the hellwright. I got no prob with FW either. Just sometimes I like to go pure dex options.

I did build a biker lord with the sniper rifle. I've been waiting years to play something like that aka Exodus. I think that combo is better than what even RG can throw down honestly. Hmm daemon shell is a great idea! Adding that to my toolbox. Gonna check the wordings now.. 

 

Ya looks legal- "this warlord can target CHARACTER units even if they are not the closest". So the bikes combi bolter can fire a daemon shell. If it rolls a 6 the model would take 1 mw from headhunter plus d3 mw from the shell. And then fire vipers bite. Then choose to use endless cacophony. Thats 2 dead TFC crews right there I'd say! 

[Brom MKIV]

GCoT thats genius. So for 136 pts we get a Hellwright on dark abeyant who happens to somehow be infantry so renascent infiltration, forward ops etc will trigger. Give it headhunter and mindveil and behold! Fast flyer esque sniper with 2 x 15" warpfire lances (s6 ap3 d6 damage) a S8 ap4 d3 shot and 2 mortal wound pistol shots! Plus the mortal wounds on 6s to hit plus 6s to wound trigger additional hits from the lance. Haha thats nasty. 

[Panzer]

 

So lets build on this. We're rocking three detatchments. What are we building?

 

1st Detachment Focus: Crowd Control (Emperor's Children)

 

Battalion - Emperor's Children

 

[HQ] - Melee Focused Lord

 

[HQ] - Sorcerer

 

[T] Noise Marines (6-man)

- All Sonic Blasters w/ banner

- Rhino

 

[T] Noise Marines (6-man)

- All Sonic Blasters w/ banner

- Rhino

 

[T] Noise Marines (6-man)

- All Sonic Blasters w/ banner

- Rhino

 

[HS] Obliterators

 

[HS] Obliterators

 

 

 

Pff, crowd control. You are funny. Stacking buffs Noise Marines can take on almost everything.

A unit of 10 with just Sonic Blasters buffed by VotLW, double shooting and the new Excruciating Frequencies deals on average 13 damage to a Knight (or any other T6-9 Sv3+ target).

That's quite respectable for a 190p Battleline unit of 10 models and 4CP I'd say. :P  (and if you are confident in protecting a big infantry unit early on then you could bump it up to 20 models to get even more value out of the 4CP. Tactical Perfection for 1CP could help with that too)

[Aothaine]

 

 

Pff, crowd control. You are funny. Stacking buffs Noise Marines can take on almost everything.

 

A unit of 10 with just Sonic Blasters buffed by VotLW, double shooting and the new Excruciating Frequencies deals on average 13 damage to a Knight (or any other T6-9 Sv3+ target).

That's quite respectable for a 190p Battleline unit of 10 models and 4CP I'd say.   (and if you are confident in protecting a big infantry unit early on then you could bump it up to 20 models to get even more value out of the 4CP. Tactical Perfection for 1CP could help with that too)

 

For sure! I was trying not to make something in the list too big of a threat though. Once you start doing that you're going to find that unit disappeared before it can even fire usually. The Noise Marines are great for clearing chaff and other stuff that will then allow berserkers in to the meat of it all. Then you also have the Helbrutes that are going to cause a significant threat. It was more about being subtle with the list and make sure everything was able to perform with allowing for redundancy in the list. If I was making a mono army I wouldn't have any issues at all dropping a 20-man Noise Marine squad that is around 400 points on the table. But when designing a list with the idea of using multiple factions I had to limit it somewhere ya know?

[Panzer]

 

 

 

Pff, crowd control. You are funny. Stacking buffs Noise Marines can take on almost everything.

 

A unit of 10 with just Sonic Blasters buffed by VotLW, double shooting and the new Excruciating Frequencies deals on average 13 damage to a Knight (or any other T6-9 Sv3+ target).

That's quite respectable for a 190p Battleline unit of 10 models and 4CP I'd say.   (and if you are confident in protecting a big infantry unit early on then you could bump it up to 20 models to get even more value out of the 4CP. Tactical Perfection for 1CP could help with that too)

 

For sure! I was trying not to make something in the list too big of a threat though. Once you start doing that you're going to find that unit disappeared before it can even fire usually. The Noise Marines are great for clearing chaff and other stuff that will then allow berserkers in to the meat of it all. Then you also have the Helbrutes that are going to cause a significant threat. It was more about being subtle with the list and make sure everything was able to perform with allowing for redundancy in the list. If I was making a mono army I wouldn't have any issues at all dropping a 20-man Noise Marine squad that is around 400 points on the table. But when designing a list with the idea of using multiple factions I had to limit it somewhere ya know?

 

 

I understand where you are coming from, but this kind of catching the opponent offguard only works one or two times at best before they have learned what the units are capable of. Not the best way to write a list imo.