Chaos vs. New Marines

[Sonoftherubric21]

I think that If you did something with the Noise Marines in an EC list I would make it either 10 in rhinos OR a huge 20 man, hit it with the +1 toughness buff pre-game and a -1 to be from an apostle. 

You now have a brick that your opponent *HAS* to deal with and when it opens fire it'll cut swathes through most things. If you go first? your screaming knights, tanks, and any squad you want off the table. Its got potential for sure though it is very much an 'all in" strat since you are putting about 6 CP. a Dark Apostle, and the squad itself down which probably adds up to roughly a quarter of your list and about half of your CP in most games. 

 

Make sure that remaining 1500 points is solid without em if that is the case (engines, tanks, contemptors/walkers, lots of combaty characters that can move up with em) 

 

I think its got great potential but DAMN they are pricy! 

[Aothaine]

Yeah they are quite expensive. Would be cool if we got a rule that said if a squad of such or such units was the size of the god's favored number they got +1W or something. That could be really fluffy and work pretty well imho.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

GCoT thats genius. So for 136 pts we get a Hellwright on dark abeyant who happens to somehow be infantry so renascent infiltration, forward ops etc will trigger. Give it headhunter and mindveil and behold! Fast flyer esque sniper with 2 x 15" warpfire lances (s6 ap3 d6 damage) a S8 ap4 d3 shot and 2 mortal wound pistol shots! Plus the mortal wounds on 6s to hit plus 6s to wound trigger additional hits from the lance. Haha thats nasty.

TBH a Hellwright with Headhunter was Goonhammer's idea. Adding Mindveil was mine.

[nanosquid]

After playing more games with the leaked rules I've gone right back into despair. It really didn't take long for my Marine opponents to figure out exactly how to make my list crumble and sidestep all the fancy new strats and traits.

 

I think I might finally give up on CSM for now.

[BrainFireBob]

Which/what legions and what subfactions were your opponents

[Brom MKIV]

Mind sharing more details like the lists and format etc?

[Slave to Darkness]

Dont give up, its not called the long war for nothing brother. Ive been on since they got rid of the 3.5 dex and Im still fighting... Let the hate embrace you.....

[WarriorFish]

Times can be tough, I always look back to remind myself that this isn't new. Inquisition, Sisters, Guard... the dread gaze of GW rests where it pleases What goes around comes around, it's why it's always good to have more than one army. Aside from keeping your hobby fresh it lets you play in different ways, and should one army fall too far behind you can park it and focus elsewhere - it's why you pick armies you like, not rules that are good I figure if I could wait enough years for Guard to finally be good, I can wait out anything

[Slave to Darkness]

Times can be tough, I always look back to remind myself that this isn't new. Inquisition, Sisters, Guard... the dread gaze of GW rests where it pleases What goes around comes around, it's why it's always good to have more than one army. Aside from keeping your hobby fresh it lets you play in different ways, and should one army fall too far behind you can park it and focus elsewhere - it's why you pick armies you like, not rules that are good I figure if I could wait enough years for Guard to finally be good, I can wait out anything

^^ This. Chaos have only been good in 1st ed, ok ish in 2nd and great in the 3.5 era. Always handy to have other armies on the go, I have Wolves, Templars, Guard and Eldar as my backup armies, and have my eye on Orks atm (but the 9th ed rumours have put the breaks on starting that, cba buying a load of Boys just for them to get 'Biggerized', GW already burnt me with Marines/Primaris, not falling for that again. 

[DuskRaider]

Pffft... peasants and your "ooo, play another army".

[techsoldaten]

 

Times can be tough, I always look back to remind myself that this isn't new. Inquisition, Sisters, Guard... the dread gaze of GW rests where it pleases What goes around comes around, it's why it's always good to have more than one army. Aside from keeping your hobby fresh it lets you play in different ways, and should one army fall too far behind you can park it and focus elsewhere - it's why you pick armies you like, not rules that are good I figure if I could wait enough years for Guard to finally be good, I can wait out anything

^^ This. Chaos have only been good in 1st ed, ok ish in 2nd and great in the 3.5 era. Always handy to have other armies on the go, I have Wolves, Templars, Guard and Eldar as my backup armies, and have my eye on Orks atm (but the 9th ed rumours have put the breaks on starting that, cba buying a load of Boys just for them to get 'Biggerized', GW already burnt me with Marines/Primaris, not falling for that again. 

 

 

Eh... Chaos has been pretty good throughout most of 8th edition. At least in tournaments.

 

https://www.40kstats.com/subfaction-results

 

There's a spreadsheet here that allows you to drill down by tournament, timeframe and ruleset. You're going to find CSM results started dipping after Dark Eldar, Imperial Knights, and Orks Codexes were released (May 2018 through November 2018.) Up until then, we were cleaning up and Daemons were doing even better. We're still learning about the impact of NuMarines - it's bad for us and not good for anyone else either.

 

I'm not really a tournament player and see these numbers as reflective of relative power of TAAC lists. There's been tournaments in the last 12 months where Grey Knights have won, list design is only one factor and no single faction is just going to run away with every tournament. There's nothing stopping players from tailoring their lists for friendly games against specific factions, which is what I enjoy.

 

Some factions enjoy a statistical advantage that allows them to win more often against other types of lists. Right now, mid-range armies are taking it on the nose, if you rely on hard-hitting melee or 24" shooting, you are at a disadvantage. Having fun with CSM means breaking from tradition and having good long range shooting, extensive psychic offense, indirect fire, multiple detachments with highly optimized units, Primarchs, etc.

 

This is my run down of what works and what doesn't for Chaos. I've played a lot of games since then and don't see a reason to change it. Scorpius tanks with rerolls eat PEQ, Black Legion Chainlords dish a ton of mortal wounds, Daemon Princes are still Daemon Princes, Primarchs are more hit than miss, Bikers tricked out with lots of plasma have a role. Maybe I could bend on Obliterators, I'm probably overlooking a few Supreme Command Detachments from PA2.

 

But the situation for CSM v NuMarines is not as bleak as some people make it out to be. They have natural advantages in terms of range, concentration of offense on tanks, deep strike denial and the whole Doctrines mess. Beating them means optimizing in response these advantages, overcoming distance to smack around key units, blowing up tanks before they get to shoot, hitting their infantry before they get to Tactical. Unfortunately, the things that work against MEQ don't always work against Orks, Dark Eldar and Imperial Knights. The fundamental mechanics for hordes / flyer spam / big mech are too different.

 

This is the real problem with Chaos right now. Lists that perform well against all comers are hard to come by. They are very good when optimized to fight a specific faction, they're just not good at fighting any faction. NuMarines have the opposite problem, they are very good against any faction but not as much against lists optimized to beat them. It's harder to optimize them to fight a specific faction because nothing strays far from the baseline.

 

People should start posting more lists and battle reports.

[Brom MKIV]

I do that too. My former loyalty to a single army lead to entire editions of disappointment. Yea I have my favorites and preferences and there's plenty of armies I'll never ever play with. But I own multiple armies and I'll use them. Also playing with different tools has really increased my skill with the game.

 

That said it's good to remember this is a marine meta. Build to hate out marines and you'll have more success.

 

Edit-ninja'd. I meant I use multiple armies..

[WarriorFish]

If nothing else, having a second army helps prevent "one army syndrome" Shelving an army is not what anyone wants and should not be a thing, but it's better than finding yourself no longer enjoying it due to GW's (in)action - it might be too late if you reach that stage

[Slave to Darkness]

Pffft... peasants and your "ooo, play another army".

My Wolves and Templars have yet to grace the tabletop, my Guard and Eldar are barely playable forces they are so small. I cant wage war without Chaos marines it seems. When I get bummed out by Chaos I just stop 40k and play Necromunda for a break. 

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

 

 

Eh... Chaos has been pretty good throughout most of 8th edition. At least in tournaments.

 

 

 

I dont pay attention to tournaments, I find no fun in that style of game... 

[nanosquid]

Which/what legions and what subfactions were your opponents

 

Iron Warriors, and my opponent was a Space Wolves player both times. He out-dakka'd me with longfangs and out-melee'd me with Wulfen.

[BrainFireBob]

What did you both run?

[MegaVolt87]

CA19 can't come soon enough IMO. We need to know where we stand going forward.

[Sonoftherubric21]

CA19 can't come soon enough IMO. We need to know where we stand going forward.

 

I'm right there with ya. So much info being thrown around and no confirmations in any direction is mind-numbing. 

 

It makes list building going forward irritating until we know exactly what is coming. 

[Slave to Darkness]

I expect it to all be crap, that way Im never let down. 

[Midnight Brotherhood]

Get a display cabinet. When I'm not in the mood for 40k or my chaos or things just aren't looking encouraging in gaming I shove them in the cabinet to just adore them. Don't sell them off, I've sold many armies off and reinvested in another force or game system and I've almost always regretted it. At least keep your Iron Warriors so that you can dip into kill team with them or in a future edition 40k when they might shine again.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

There's an image purportedly from the German GW page on Facebook showing some incoming points drops from CA...including CSM dropping to 11 and Winged Daemon Princes down to 155.

 

Discuss!

[Marshal Loss]

Winged DPs dropping is very surprising. They're great and have been seeing constant use everywhere.

 

CSM dropping to 11ppm is...okay....but I'd much rather they get better, not cheaper. As a band-aid until our 431st update, however, it will do.

[Khornestar]

Only 5 more points than a unit of 10 cultists.

 

An increasingly enticing way to get not-totally-useless CP via Red Corsairs.

[Brom MKIV]

Link to the leak please?