Chaos vs. New Marines

[Excessus]

Winged DPs dropping is very surprising. They're great and have been seeing constant use everywhere.

 

CSM dropping to 11ppm is...okay....but I'd much rather they get better, not cheaper. As a band-aid until our 431st update, however, it will do.

 

Same here. Marines should be marines, not cultists in armour...

[RapatoR]

To be fair, having sub-standard marine (along the lines of Inducti in HH) should be a thing, I just never envisioned them in form of standard "tactical" squad. However given recent rumors of 2W cult troops, would you take it, if Chosen became 2W, and under unmarked warlord, could become Troop choice?

[Sonoftherubric21]

Well assuming this 11 point rumor is true.... one of my favorite lists for my Black Legion just dropped by about 120 points. 

 

That will help a great deal lol. Failing getting updated tactics and a mono-codex bonus? I'll take flooding the board in marines. 

 

We have crappy gear and LOTS of legionaries. Lets make it fluffy!!!!!!!!! (This is supported entirely by the current fluff.) 

[MegaVolt87]

CSM tides are my jam. 

[Sonoftherubric21]

CSM tides are my jam. 

 

You being an Iron Warriors player I would expect nothing less 

[Brom MKIV]

Not what I want but I guess I'd take it. 11 pts is about the floor of expectation for a csm anymore. I'd say lower considering their wargear.. like sisters of battle level costs. 

 

The main issue when building lists is getting value from the troops. And close second playing what I want. 

If we had concealed position troops (not nurglings) and some form of relevant shooting I'd bring multiples and be happy.

 

I'd prefer they change doctrines and/or give csm AP access for bolter variants instead of cheaper marines. But then I'd be surprised if this rumour is real anyway.  

Edited November 25, 2019 by Brom MKIV

[Marshal Loss]

CSM aren't a "one size fits all" sort of faction and our marines should be able to stand on their own two feet when compared in a bubble to their loyalist equivalents. We definitely shouldn't be characterized by default as the "power armour horde" army.

 

Fancy Cawl gear or not even a basic chaos marine is a transhuman super-soldier armed and armoured with wargear that enabled the conquest of much of the galaxy. I'd like the rules to reflect that heritage.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Marshal Loss

[Sonoftherubric21]

CSM aren't a "one size fits all" sort of faction and our marines should be able to stand on their own two feet when compared in a bubble to their loyalist equivalents. We definitely shouldn't be characterized by default as the "power armour horde" army.

 

Fancy Cawl gear or not even a basic chaos marine is a transhuman super-soldier armed and armoured with wargear that enabled the conquest of much of the galaxy. I'd like the rules to reflect that heritage.

 

I agree on principle but within the fluff there are a bunch of examples of the opposite being true as well. 

 

The fact that the Chaos forces are both "So much stronger and yet so much weaker" then they (the legions) ever were, as Khayon put it in Black Legion.

 

Its an army of angry warriors that lack supply lines, manufactorums, and lack full coordination and make up for it in sheer gravitas and contempt. The gear they have is old and warped and screwy so I think them being the tiny pittance less then loyalist marines makes some level of sense at least in theory. 

 

In our case I will gladly take it barring a dang tactics re-write which GW seems reticent about. 

[Marshal Loss]

The fact that the Chaos forces are both "So much stronger and yet so much weaker" then they (the legions) ever were, as Khayon put it in Black Legion.

 

To put it mildly, by "so much stronger" he wasn't referring to having bucketloads of power-armoured fodder to throw at their enemies. That isn't supported by the fluff at all. Producing new marines is incredibly difficult; just look at the insane amount of influence a single individual - Fabius Bile - is able to hold over entire Legions/Primarchs because of said difficulty. Look at how big a deal the prospect of regeneration is in the NL trilogy, for instance. This isn't the heresy, CSM can't just throw a hundred thousand marines at a problem they want to go away.

 

What concerns me isn't the points drop itself but what it may indicate: that GW is not willing to give us a proper fix like the loyalists received. Only time will tell. In the meantime, the points drop will certainly help all of us who like throwing marines in their list, but it's not what I want.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Marshal Loss

[Brom MKIV]

If we are getting cheaper troops then I kinda hope it comes with the rumoured 2w cult troops.. IF they don't skyrocket in cost that is. 4 pt cultists and primaris elites (or troops for some) I could work with. That would unfortunately tilt the internal balance of legions quite a bit.

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

The fact that the Chaos forces are both "So much stronger and yet so much weaker" then they (the legions) ever were, as Khayon put it in Black Legion.

 

To put it mildly, by "so much stronger" he wasn't referring to having bucketloads of power-armoured fodder to throw at their enemies. That isn't supported by the fluff at all. Producing new marines is incredibly difficult; just look at the insane amount of influence a single individual - Fabius Bile - is able to hold over entire Legions/Primarchs because of said difficulty. Look at how big a deal the prospect of regeneration is in the NL trilogy, for instance. This isn't the heresy, CSM can't just throw a hundred thousand marines at a problem they want to go away.

 

What concerns me isn't the points drop itself but what it may indicate: that GW is not willing to give us a proper fix like the loyalists received. Only time will tell. In the meantime, the points drop will certainly help all of us who like throwing marines in their list, but it's not what I want.

 

 

Not what I want "ideally" either! but if its the only choice we have Ill gladly take it. And you have a valid point given things like possession and as you said their inherent difficulties of warp tainted geneseed. 

 

Make Chaos Marines more playable via any means, and this certainly helps a great deal given that our squads are now the same points cost as a SCOUT unit. I think we won't get any cheaper and this is the best we could hope for when looking at a short-term patch up. 

 

 

If we are getting cheaper troops then I kinda hope it comes with the rumoured 2w cult troops.. IF they don't skyrocket in cost that is. 4 pt cultists and primaris elites (or troops for some) I could work with. That would unfortunately tilt the internal balance of legions quite a bit.

 

I would not count on points drops AND two wounds. Given that these points drops were accurate its logical to think that the Cult units will follow dropping 2PPM each. 

 

15 point Plauges and 16 point Rubrics looks solid. And (what was their base cost? 16? for zerkers?) meaning that they would have either 15 or 16 points zerkers after chain axes. Even with glass-cannon intent its a pretty good deal. 

 

The Internal Balance of the codex is already topsy-turvy given the troops are the worst thing in the book by a huge margin. If cultists don't go down I can at least see more Marines hitting the table. And given I am the insane Git that owns almost a company of Rubricae and around 60 Chaos Marines I think it will work out favorably lol. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

The fact that the Chaos forces are both "So much stronger and yet so much weaker" then they (the legions) ever were, as Khayon put it in Black Legion.

 

To put it mildly, by "so much stronger" he wasn't referring to having bucketloads of power-armoured fodder to throw at their enemies. That isn't supported by the fluff at all

For Red Corsairs and BL it is fluffly, to an extent, because of the constant influx of Renegades and shattered warbands arriving to pledge fealty. Death Guard have also been INCREASING in number from Legion size over 10000 years because they can make new Plague Marines via Plague Surgeons and aggressive wars for geneseed, combined with the extremely slow rate at which they are destroyed in battle. Thousand Sons don't NEED geneseed and only require talented psykers to create new Aspiring Sorcerers through magic.

 

The Alpha Legion also seem to have means of creating their own Marines, to the point that they can embed particular organs in valuable mortal agents. They seem to be able to replace their numbers fairly well, given that they live outside the Eye in most cases and actually age.

 

So that's 5 of the subfactions that don't suffer as much from this issue. The others do indeed seem to have replacement problems (hence why Honsou went to extreme lengths to try and fix that).

 

Relating back to the topic at hand, I wouldn't mind seeing horde armies from some of the above, or even from the Iron Warriors, who still have a lot of bodies and tend to use cannon fodder.

Edited November 25, 2019 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

The fact that the Chaos forces are both "So much stronger and yet so much weaker" then they (the legions) ever were, as Khayon put it in Black Legion.

 

To put it mildly, by "so much stronger" he wasn't referring to having bucketloads of power-armoured fodder to throw at their enemies. That isn't supported by the fluff at all. Producing new marines is incredibly difficult; just look at the insane amount of influence a single individual - Fabius Bile - is able to hold over entire Legions/Primarchs because of said difficulty. Look at how big a deal the prospect of regeneration is in the NL trilogy, for instance. This isn't the heresy, CSM can't just throw a hundred thousand marines at a problem they want to go away.

 

What concerns me isn't the points drop itself but what it may indicate: that GW is not willing to give us a proper fix like the loyalists received. Only time will tell. In the meantime, the points drop will certainly help all of us who like throwing marines in their list, but it's not what I want.

 

 

Not what I want "ideally" either! but if its the only choice we have Ill gladly take it. And you have a valid point given things like possession and as you said their inherent difficulties of warp tainted geneseed. 

 

Make Chaos Marines more playable via any means, and this certainly helps a great deal given that our squads are now the same points cost as a SCOUT unit. I think we won't get any cheaper and this is the best we could hope for when looking at a short-term patch up. 

 

 

If we are getting cheaper troops then I kinda hope it comes with the rumoured 2w cult troops.. IF they don't skyrocket in cost that is. 4 pt cultists and primaris elites (or troops for some) I could work with. That would unfortunately tilt the internal balance of legions quite a bit.

 

I would not count on points drops AND two wounds. Given that these points drops were accurate its logical to think that the Cult units will follow dropping 2PPM each. 

 

15 point Plauges and 16 point Rubrics looks solid. And (what was their base cost? 16? for zerkers?) meaning that they would have either 15 or 16 points zerkers after chain axes. Even with glass-cannon intent its a pretty good deal. 

 

The Internal Balance of the codex is already topsy-turvy given the troops are the worst thing in the book by a huge margin. If cultists don't go down I can at least see more Marines hitting the table. And given I am the insane Git that owns almost a company of Rubricae and around 60 Chaos Marines I think it will work out favorably lol. 

 

Aren't Rubric Marines already 16 points before bolters?

[Brom MKIV]

Before bolters yes.

 

What I want is more ability to deal damage from troops. probably ain't gonna ever happen but thats what I want. And/or some concealed positions.

More wounds cheaper bodies doesn't really matter although I'll be happy with either over no changes. But that doesn't do anything major to impact the state of chaos troops.

 

Intercessors were considered bad before the new dex/supplements and they had the same cost iirc. What changed is their weapon profiles and doctrines. 

[Marshal Loss]

 

So that's 5 of the subfactions that don't suffer as much from this issue.

 

Yeah, let's unpack/debunk this:

 

• The Death Guard, after 10,000 years (and after being forced to use loyalist gene-seed, etc) are only barely larger than they were at the start of the heresy, and that is factoring into account the fact that they have been deliberately marshaling their strength in preparation for Mortarion's return to the material plane. They are also the dominant infantry Legion, and their tactics have always revolved around infantry.
• The AL's strength is and always has been ambiguous, but if anything they are accordingly less likely to operate on a grand scale due to the attention it attracts
• Why are you including the Thousand Sons as part of this argument? Makes 0 sense. Their strength is effectively capped due to the nature of Ahriman's Rubric. They create at most a handful of sorcerers who control a set number of automatons.
• The Black Legion & Red Corsairs are anomalies. Their size is a big part of their uniqueness.

 

There are exceptions to any rule, but CSM aren't generally a horde faction that throws spades of power-armoured bodies at their opponents. They are far less numerous than they once were. By their very nature ("chaos" space marines) this faction resists a one-size-fits-all kind of characterization.

 

At the end of the day, no matter which way you spin it, the lore does not support a galaxy where CSM are crappy and cheap and loyalists are elite and expensive. I agree with the perpetually enthusiastic rubric chap - this points reduction is the best we've got, and I'm not accusing people who like taking large numbers of marines of being unfaithful to the lore. Some warbands/legions revolve around infantry tactics, and that's cool. But GW should be giving us bonuses/better rules that make our existing marines better, not make them cheaper. Characterization matters.

 

A mono-army doctrine sort of system aside, marks are probably the best way to fix this imo. Make marks mean something again and give tangible bonuses and suddenly we are able to show how the warp is working its influence on our warriors.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Marshal Loss

[Lord_Starscream]

 

 

So that's 5 of the subfactions that don't suffer as much from this issue.

 

Yeah, let's unpack/debunk this:

• The Death Guard, after 10,000 years (and after being forced to use loyalist gene-seed, etc) are only barely larger than they were at the start of the heresy, and that is factoring into account the fact that they have been deliberately marshaling their strength in preparation for Mortarion's return to the material plane. They are also the dominant infantry Legion, and their tactics have always revolved around infantry.
• The AL's strength is and always has been ambiguous, but if anything they are accordingly less likely to operate on a grand scale due to the attention it attracts
• Why are you including the Thousand Sons as part of this argument? Makes 0 sense. Their strength is effectively capped due to the nature of Ahriman's Rubric. They create at most a handful of sorcerers who control a set number of automatons.
• The Black Legion & Red Corsairs are anomalies. Their size is a big part of their uniqueness.

There are exceptions to any rule, but by and large, the lore does not support CSM having spades of power-armoured bodies to throw at their opponents. They are far less numerous than they once were. By their very nature ("chaos" space marines) this faction resists a one-size-fits-all kind of characterization. The old Legions are all but dead. Even those that have maintained some level of organization are essentially fragmented.

 

At the end of the day, no matter which way you spin it, the lore does not support a galaxy where CSM are crappy and cheap and loyalists are elite and expensive. I agree with the perpetually enthusiastic rubric chap - this points reduction is the best we've got, and I'm not accusing people who like taking large numbers of marines as being unfaithful to the lore. Some warbands/legions revolve around infantry tactics, and as our tabletop battles are in effect snapshots, people can justify anything they like with ease. But GW should be giving us bonuses/better rules that make our existing marines better, not make them cheaper. Characterization matters.

 

A mono-army doctrine sort of system aside, marks are probably the best way to fix this imo. Make marks mean something again and give tangible bonuses and suddenly we are able to show how the warp is working its influence on our warriors.

 

 

Back in third edition, I saw the Word Bearers ability to take x3 extra troops as just a way to take more Chaos Marines. So I'd run like, 70-80 basic marines in 7-8 squads per game at 1750. It was the lulz. My opponents having to deal with almost a full company of dudes back in 3rd was so spicey. 

[Lord_Starscream]

Also, even though it's not happened yet, I think it's going to be pretty amusing once Primaris get their dedicated close combat units. Because after that what little is left of any advantage Chaos has, can evaporate. lol

 

All kidding aside, melee seems to be the only place where Chaos has anything approaching an advantage. And this edition does not support melee :|

[Lucerne]

 

 

So that's 5 of the subfactions that don't suffer as much from this issue.

 

Yeah, let's unpack/debunk this:

 

• The Death Guard, after 10,000 years (and after being forced to use loyalist gene-seed, etc) are only barely larger than they were at the start of the heresy, and that is factoring into account the fact that they have been deliberately marshaling their strength in preparation for Mortarion's return to the material plane. They are also the dominant infantry Legion, and their tactics have always revolved around infantry.
• The AL's strength is and always has been ambiguous, but if anything they are accordingly less likely to operate on a grand scale due to the attention it attracts
• Why are you including the Thousand Sons as part of this argument? Makes 0 sense. Their strength is effectively capped due to the nature of Ahriman's Rubric. They create at most a handful of sorcerers who control a set number of automatons.
• The Black Legion & Red Corsairs are anomalies. Their size is a big part of their uniqueness.

 

There are exceptions to any rule, but CSM aren't generally a horde faction that throws spades of power-armoured bodies at their opponents. They are far less numerous than they once were. By their very nature ("chaos" space marines) this faction resists a one-size-fits-all kind of characterization.

 

At the end of the day, no matter which way you spin it, the lore does not support a galaxy where CSM are crappy and cheap and loyalists are elite and expensive. I agree with the perpetually enthusiastic rubric chap - this points reduction is the best we've got, and I'm not accusing people who like taking large numbers of marines of being unfaithful to the lore. Some warbands/legions revolve around infantry tactics, and that's cool. But GW should be giving us bonuses/better rules that make our existing marines better, not make them cheaper. Characterization matters.

 

A mono-army doctrine sort of system aside, marks are probably the best way to fix this imo. Make marks mean something again and give tangible bonuses and suddenly we are able to show how the warp is working its influence on our warriors.

 

 

I'll note the Alpha Legion's size is skewed towards high numbers, and their operating style varies- but generally without being hordes of power armour.

 

The Thousand Sons are a lot of rubrics and a handful of sorcerors, so a "human" tide of the ashen dead rubric kinda fits them.

 

But yes, the Codex CSM are a terrible representation of anything but random renegade chapters or "random NPC chaos marines"- lorewise, CSM players should be taking chosen and ditching the "regular" CSM outright.

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Ugolino

[Marshal Loss]

 

I'll note the Alpha Legion's size is skewed towards high numbers, and their operating style varies- but generally without being hordes of power armour.

 

The Thousand Sons are a lot of rubrics and a handful of sorcerors, so a "human" tide of the ashen dead rubric kinda fits them.

 

Source for "skewed towards high numbers"? Genuinely curious. Beyond their dalliance with mass production during the heresy, their numbers have always been ambiguous in 40k itself, and as they typically operate as raiders deep within the Imperium, it follows that a vast AL presence is going to be a relatively rare occurrence. Their entire modus operandi is based around maximising the advantages they have over regular troops.

 

As for the TS, they really don't belong in this discussion at all.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Marshal Loss

[Lucerne]

 

 

I'll note the Alpha Legion's size is skewed towards high numbers, and their operating style varies- but generally without being hordes of power armour.

 

The Thousand Sons are a lot of rubrics and a handful of sorcerors, so a "human" tide of the ashen dead rubric kinda fits them.

 

Source for "skewed towards high numbers"? Genuinely curious. Beyond their dalliance with mass production during the heresy, their numbers have always been ambiguous in 40k itself, and as they typically operate as raiders deep within the Imperium, it follows that a vast AL presence is going to be a relatively rare occurrence. Their entire modus operandi is based around maximising the advantages they have over regular troops.

 

As for the TS, they really don't belong in this discussion at all.

 

I meant the Heresy question mark with the possiblity of entire splinter 'Alpha Legions' offscreen as in universe speculation.

 

Their numbers in 40k are basically irrelevant, but it's noted in the old lore that the bulk of them stayed in realspace with hidden bases. We do see large warbands even in the limited 40k lore every so often, so they're definitely not in the state Night Lords are but anything beyond that is up in the air for 40k numbers.

[DuskRaider]

Actually, Death Guard in the current setting are MUCH larger than they were in the Heresy. Book One states their numbers around 95,000. The codex has their number around double that. So I'd say they're doing pretty good.

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

 

I'll note the Alpha Legion's size is skewed towards high numbers, and their operating style varies- but generally without being hordes of power armour.

 

The Thousand Sons are a lot of rubrics and a handful of sorcerors, so a "human" tide of the ashen dead rubric kinda fits them.

 

Source for "skewed towards high numbers"? Genuinely curious. Beyond their dalliance with mass production during the heresy, their numbers have always been ambiguous in 40k itself, and as they typically operate as raiders deep within the Imperium, it follows that a vast AL presence is going to be a relatively rare occurrence. Their entire modus operandi is based around maximising the advantages they have over regular troops.

 

As for the TS, they really don't belong in this discussion at all.

 

 

Lets be entirely fair to the lore: Numbers of space marines are NOT consistent especially not once taking into account warp-shenanigans (the ultimate deus ex machina) 

 

At Terra (direct from black library writers) there are 10k Thousand Sons in total at the siege. 

 

However, according to the codex numbers as of the attack on the Fenris system the Thousand Sons have (wait for it...) 66,000 RUBRICS. That is not including living Sorcerers. This would be astronomically higher then the victims of Ahrimans initial rubric which chronologically takes place years AFTER the siege. 

 

Its one of those strange things due to the universe being so big and the theme being a "Setting" more-so then a coherent story. Numbers are all over the dang place even for the "smallest" legion. 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Sonoftherubric21

[Marshal Loss]

Lets be entirely fair to the lore: Numbers of space marines are NOT consistent especially not once taking into account warp-shenanigans (the ultimate deus ex machina) 

 

At Terra (direct from black library writers) there are 10k Thousand Sons in total at the siege. 

 

However, according to the codex numbers as of the attack on the Fenris system the Thousand Sons have (wait for it...) 66,000 RUBRICS. That is not including living Sorcerers. This would be astronomically higher then the victims of Ahrimans initial rubric which chronologically takes place years AFTER the siege. 

 

Its one of those strange things due to the universe being so big and the theme being a "Setting" more-so then a coherent story. Numbers are all over the dang place even for the "smallest" legion.

 

The 66,000 thing is a real ??? moment, not gonna lie, but the Thousand Sons are completely irrelevant to the broader point because no matter how many Rubrics they have, whether it be ten thousand or ten million, they're not normal marines. They don't make normal marines beyond a relative handful of sorcerers. The Cult Legions really don't belong in this discussion, which was prompted by the 11pt marine reveal, as they're not being moved in the horde direction. Please, stick to the case at hand. I appreciate you're trying to make a broader point about inconsistency, but it would be best to use a more relevant example. In any case my broader point, which I believe we are in agreement on, stands.

 

Actually, Death Guard in the current setting are MUCH larger than they were in the Heresy. Book One states their numbers around 95,000. The codex has their number around double that. So I'd say they're doing pretty good.

 

AB said they never went higher than the lower 110,000's at the largest mark pre-heresy, and were just short of 100,000 prior to the dropsite massacre. The 8th edition codex averages out their numbers as being ~120,000 + command & specialist echelons. So while you're wrong on the 190,000 marines thing, I did undersell it a bit, my bad.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Marshal Loss

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

Lets be entirely fair to the lore: Numbers of space marines are NOT consistent especially not once taking into account warp-shenanigans (the ultimate deus ex machina) 

 

At Terra (direct from black library writers) there are 10k Thousand Sons in total at the siege. 

 

However, according to the codex numbers as of the attack on the Fenris system the Thousand Sons have (wait for it...) 66,000 RUBRICS. That is not including living Sorcerers. This would be astronomically higher then the victims of Ahrimans initial rubric which chronologically takes place years AFTER the siege. 

 

Its one of those strange things due to the universe being so big and the theme being a "Setting" more-so then a coherent story. Numbers are all over the dang place even for the "smallest" legion.

 

The 66,000 thing is a real ??? moment, not gonna lie, but the Thousand Sons are completely irrelevant to the broader point because no matter how many Rubrics they have, whether it be ten thousand or ten million, they're not normal marines. They don't make normal marines beyond a relative handful of sorcerers. The Cult Legions really don't belong in this discussion, which was prompted by the 11pt marine reveal, as they're not being moved in the horde direction. Please, stick to the case at hand. I appreciate you're trying to make a broader point about inconsistency, but it would be best to use a more relevant example. In any case my broader point, which I believe we are in agreement on, stands.

 

 

Well if you want relevant examples of Legions acting in 40k as such both Word Bearers and Iron Warriors fit the bill. 

 

They are the two that really come to mind as post-heresy they stayed (more or less) at "Legion" strength and didn't fall apart the way most others did and have some level of active ability to replenish Marines.

 

Storm of Iron made a point of showing just how much power certain warbands had and it is quite drastic in scale. They did not give full Grand Company numbers under the Warsmith but some of the stuff mentioned includes having 2000+ tanks and 600 Dreadnoughts. That is VERY close to Legion-level strength even without having Legionnaire numbers for Forrix, Honsou and Kroegers companies. 

 

Though I think it changes per writer, situation, and of course the needs of GW as a company for what the "setting" of 40k does, and this especially includes GWs current predicament post-8.5 Marine dex. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

So that's 5 of the subfactions that don't suffer as much from this issue.

 

Yeah, let's unpack/debunk this:

 

• The Death Guard, after 10,000 years (and after being forced to use loyalist gene-seed, etc) are only barely larger than they were at the start of the heresy, and that is factoring into account the fact that they have been deliberately marshaling their strength in preparation for Mortarion's return to the material plane. They are also the dominant infantry Legion, and their tactics have always revolved around infantry.
• The AL's strength is and always has been ambiguous, but if anything they are accordingly less likely to operate on a grand scale due to the attention it attracts
• Why are you including the Thousand Sons as part of this argument? Makes 0 sense. Their strength is effectively capped due to the nature of Ahriman's Rubric. They create at most a handful of sorcerers who control a set number of automatons.
• The Black Legion & Red Corsairs are anomalies. Their size is a big part of their uniqueness.

 

There are exceptions to any rule, but CSM aren't generally a horde faction that throws spades of power-armoured bodies at their opponents. They are far less numerous than they once were. By their very nature ("chaos" space marines) this faction resists a one-size-fits-all kind of characterization.

 

At the end of the day, no matter which way you spin it, the lore does not support a galaxy where CSM are crappy and cheap and loyalists are elite and expensive. I agree with the perpetually enthusiastic rubric chap - this points reduction is the best we've got, and I'm not accusing people who like taking large numbers of marines of being unfaithful to the lore. Some warbands/legions revolve around infantry tactics, and that's cool. But GW should be giving us bonuses/better rules that make our existing marines better, not make them cheaper. Characterization matters.

 

A mono-army doctrine sort of system aside, marks are probably the best way to fix this imo. Make marks mean something again and give tangible bonuses and suddenly we are able to show how the warp is working its influence on our warriors.

 

I was simply pointing out that horde tactics are fluffy for roughly 5 of the major factions, a 6th if you count the Iron Warriors because they historically did and still do when they can, though that presents problems.

 

As said above, the Death Guard appear to be way larger than they were during the Heresy (if you make sure to count armor, Helbrutes, etc.).

 

The Thousand Sons were included because they often employ large formations of Rubricae without fear of losing resources. In multiple books, Ahriman's preferred tactic is a mass infantry assault after a lot of pre-battle sorcerous shenanigans.

 

These factions don't suffer from the issue in question in the fluff, and I was responding to your statement that price decreases would promote horde tactics. Also you did say:  

 

To put it mildly, by "so much stronger" he wasn't referring to having bucketloads of power-armoured fodder to throw at their enemies. That isn't supported by the fluff at all. Producing new marines is incredibly difficult; just look at the insane amount of influence a single individual - Fabius Bile - is able to hold over entire Legions/Primarchs because of said difficulty. Look at how big a deal the prospect of regeneration is in the NL trilogy, for instance. This isn't the heresy, CSM can't just throw a hundred thousand marines at a problem they want to go away.

 

The factions I mentioned can throw large enough hordes of infantry at a problem that it should be a staple of their tactics on the tabletop and therefore a points decrease doesn't hurt the army's portrayal of the fluff. 

 

Of course, you also did say:

 

I'm not accusing people who like taking large numbers of marines of being unfaithful to the lore.

 

So maybe I'm just confused by your choice of words. I agree that CSM should receive buffs as well, especially for Marks and Icons and such. However I'm not as dismayed by receiving a points decrease instead.

 

Hopefully we both understand each other better and we can move on to some other details.