Chaos vs. New Marines

[Marshal Loss]

edit: this is turning into a walloftextathon, so I'm spoiler tagging all of this and just leaving the summary at the bottom so we can move on. It's a bit frustrating repeating myself, but I mean no insult to my fellow veterans of the long war, so forgive the terse tone.

 

 

Well if you want relevant examples of Legions acting in 40k as such both Word Bearers and Iron Warriors fit the bill. 

 

They are the two that really come to mind as post-heresy they stayed (more or less) at "Legion" strength and didn't fall apart the way most others did and have some level of active ability to replenish Marines.

 

Storm of Iron made a point of showing just how much power certain warbands had and it is quite drastic in scale. They did not give full Grand Company numbers under the Warsmith but some of the stuff mentioned includes having 2000+ tanks and 600 Dreadnoughts. That is VERY close to Legion-level strength even without having Legionnaire numbers for Forrix, Honsou and Kroegers companies. 

 

Though I think it changes per writer, situation, and of course the needs of GW as a company for what the "setting" of 40k does, and this especially includes GWs current predicament post-8.5 Marine dex.

 

Mate you are completely missing the point here and I'm not sure how. This is getting a little frustrating. First things first:

1. If you are comparing books written 15+ years ago with more modern texts, of course there are going to be differences. Even the HH series multiplied the size of the Legions tenfold a quarter of the way through. I would point out, of course, that Forrix/Kroeger/Falk are three of the most important people in the entire IV Legion, and it follows that their force is going to be abnormally large and powerful. I'd also point out that they're not exactly using horde tactics...
2. The Word Bearers and Iron Warriors regularly rely on infantry, yes, but that does not = they are "infantry horde armies".

None of these points are at all relevant to what I'm saying. I'll hearken back to my original post on the matter:

 

CSM aren't a "one size fits all" sort of faction and our marines should be able to stand on their own two feet when compared in a bubble to their loyalist equivalents. We definitely shouldn't be characterized by default as the "power armour horde" army.

 

Fancy Cawl gear or not even a basic chaos marine is a transhuman super-soldier armed and armoured with wargear that enabled the conquest of much of the galaxy. I'd like the rules to reflect that heritage.

 

Nowhere have I said that large CSM armies don't exist, or that there is not justification for somebody to happily field a giant wave of marines, etc. All I'm saying - all I've ever been saying - is that I don't want CSM to be characterized as the "power armour horde" army, for which there is absolutely 0 justification relative to the broader setting. Every single inconsistency you and others have pointed out can be leveled at the loyalist side, and yet they have received rules which emphasize their elite "marine" quality rather than cheap crappy "horde" quality. We deserve the same treatment.

 

The factions I mentioned can throw large enough hordes of infantry at a problem that it should be a staple of their tactics on the tabletop and therefore a points decrease doesn't hurt the army's portrayal of the fluff.

 

Of the factions you listed, two (DG & TS) are cult legions, and are thus irrelevant, given that the discussion is predicated on the points decrease to vanilla chaos space marines. More broadly speaking, infantry being a staple of a faction's tactics does not = infantry horde army.

 

 

So maybe I'm just confused by your choice of words.

 

I get that feeling. Nowhere have I said that a mass-infantry action is not fluffy. What I have (repeatedly) been saying is that dropping the points cost of vanilla CSM below those of loyalists, giving them a range of buffs that reflect them being actual "marines" while nudging us towards being the "power armour horde" faction, does not reflect the lore. It's about discrepancy, about parity, and so I am unsure why you & others are throwing examples at me like they derail the broader point. They don't.

 

 

To put it as succinctly as I possibly can: GW "fixed" loyalist marines by buffing the actual marine units. So far, the only "fix" we have received is a points decrease. This creates a scenario where CSM appear the inferior horde version of the loyalist marine. Relative to each other, this does not reflect the lore, and is an inappropriate characterization. We are not and should not be the "power armour horde" faction, and this has no bearing on some subfactions relying on infantry-heavy tactics.

 

Hopefully this clears it up for you two.

[Brom MKIV]

Not to mention no one does PA hordes unless they ARE effective. Primaris spam is a thing. Tacs not so much. Csm get reduced to cp batteries or the niche Las spam list. That I've seen anyway.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Here is an apt question: Is the basic Chaos Space Marines worth the 6 PPM difference between them and a Intercessor?  Due to all of their overlapping and tactics the loyalists have I'd probably say no. BUT; I think that there is potential once we get a fuller picture combined with all our recent rules drops in Faith and Fury. 

 

Given that what we have now is cheap Chaos Marines which in this case might be notably better then cultists considering the cost.... (slightly over x2 cost but T4 and a 3+ save over T3 and a 6+ save) along with easily spammable special/heavy weapons if need be. 

 

This could potentially work out in our favor. Or at the VERY least it will come close briding the gap. A 10 man unit, combi champion, and 2 Reaper cannons is now 152 and on paper this feels right to me, but perhaps I am being too optimistic and MSU is the way to go this edition? 

 

A 5 man unit with 1x reaper and combi champ is 77. Seems like a decent troop choice for Battallion CP generation and they will actually accomplish something. If you really want to scrimp you can always just take 5x marine at 55 which is (IMHO) better then 10 cultists for 5 points more. Less wounds but if you stick them in cover on objective they may actually stand their ground with a 2+ save. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Now that we've moved past some earlier confusion, I've turned to looking at 5 man Marine Squads. 5 Marines w/Plasma, Combi-Plasma, and Chainaxe could be 78 if the weapons don't change. 1pt more than Sonoftherubric21 brought up, but pretty flexible.

 

You could go upfield with, say, 10 of these in 5 Rhinos, jumping out to spam Plasma shots and Grenades and then any charging opponents run into a thicket of Chainaxes. If they don't rush you, then you take the initiative instead. Could be fun.

 

Possibly risky in ITC, though.

[DuskRaider]

 

 

Actually, Death Guard in the current setting are MUCH larger than they were in the Heresy. Book One states their numbers around 95,000. The codex has their number around double that. So I'd say they're doing pretty good.

AB said they never went higher than the lower 110,000's at the largest mark pre-heresy, and were just short of 100,000 prior to the dropsite massacre. The 8th edition codex averages out their numbers as being ~120,000 + command & specialist echelons. So while you're wrong on the 190,000 marines thing, I did undersell it a bit, my bad.

Are you sure about that? From what I recall, in the current setting they're much more than 120,000. Some doing the math were going into the 200,000s although while I don't think they're that high I also wouldn't put it past them.

[Brom MKIV]

Here is an apt question: Is the basic Chaos Space Marines worth the 6 PPM difference between them and a Intercessor? Due to all of their overlapping and tactics the loyalists have I'd probably say no. BUT; I think that there is potential once we get a fuller picture combined with all our recent rules drops in Faith and Fury.

 

Given that what we have now is cheap Chaos Marines which in this case might be notably better then cultists considering the cost.... (slightly over x2 cost but T4 and a 3+ save over T3 and a 6+ save) along with easily spammable special/heavy weapons if need be.

 

This could potentially work out in our favor. Or at the VERY least it will come close briding the gap. A 10 man unit, combi champion, and 2 Reaper cannons is now 152 and on paper this feels right to me, but perhaps I am being too optimistic and MSU is the way to go this edition?

 

A 5 man unit with 1x reaper and combi champ is 77. Seems like a decent troop choice for Battallion CP generation and they will actually accomplish something. If you really want to scrimp you can always just take 5x marine at 55 which is (IMHO) better then 10 cultists for 5 points more. Less wounds but if you stick them in cover on objective they may actually stand their ground with a 2+ save.

 

In the abstract the pt's difference seems appropriate, but it's not. Primaris are lethal and durable. Csm are mostly worthless. 1.5 csm cannot contribute what 1 primaris does. 3 couldn't. I still use 1-2 unit's sometimes because they're the namesake.. But mostly I dip into tzaangors or cult troops or daemons sorry to say.

The lethality of the game is just too high. The generic csm will never be worth fielding in 8th as we know it except for aesthetic or fluff value. And that's a shame. SM were in the same state before doctrines. AP is better than ppm in this case.

 

This came across maybe a tad too negative but I'm not a negative person and it's not my intent to discourage anyone. I make due with what we got just sayin..

[Closet Skeleton]

I tested Black Legion chaos marine spam in two small ITC tournaments and 1 ETC 5 game tournament. It was definitely the 24" range limit in my list that screwed me over but I could just weigh down non-optimal lists pretty easily.

 

30 dead marines a turn was pretty normal.

 

Game lethality can be pretty alpha-strike dependent. If your opponent is killing more stuff than you are then you'll be tabled around turn 3, if high output targets can be dropped on turn 1 then everything else will last longer.

[Khornestar]

I tested Black Legion chaos marine spam in two small ITC tournaments and 1 ETC 5 game tournament. It was definitely the 24" range limit in my list that screwed me over but I could just weigh down non-optimal lists pretty easily.

 

30 dead marines a turn was pretty normal.

 

Game lethality can be pretty alpha-strike dependent. If your opponent is killing more stuff than you are then you'll be tabled around turn 3, if high output targets can be dropped on turn 1 then everything else will last longer.

 

How many units of CSM? Any heavy weapons?

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Isn't it a bit futile to make the argument that massed infantry on the tabletop is equatable to a horde army? Horde is mostly an in game term that probably wouldn't exist the way we hobby enthusiast use it, in universe. 

There are typically 16-44 Soldiers in a U.S. Army platoon. A Company has about 150 soldiers in it. If you all are making the argument that on the tabletop 90 marines are a horde then fine but I don't think you can try to relate that to the fluff. If legions were adequately represented on the tabletop it would be called a horde and those numbers would be well above the 90 marines in a list that was being discussed. 90 marines would make perfect sense for the majority of CSM (including the "legions" like DG). I think it'd be a fun list and I definitely agree some armies may have issues dealing with all of the saturation. 

[nanosquid]

I hope Chosen come down to match, or if the 2w thing is true it applies to them as well. 10 Iron Warriors thunder hammer wall-breakers will be really nice with our new Cannon Fodder strategem to protect them.

[Midnight Brotherhood]

I've come to accept that my CSM troops just won't contribute as much as they did pre-8th. In a way the only way for me to be happy about the basic CSM troop is to lower my expectations for them in this edition. Their stats and costs initially were the same as 7th and carried over but their offensive output and durability didn't. Where as back in 7th I could take a few squads and feel confident in their AP5 bolters messing most infantry up, and their power armour mitigating most most small to medium arms fire I felt pretty good about CSM troops combined with the buffs they got at the end of 7th in the traitor supplement.

 

When 8th rolled around bolters were nerfed with the AP changes, and shooting became much more lethal against power armour. Terrain also became weaker (remember static 5+ cover saves or 4+ cover saves against plasma, las, etc etc?). Rerolls were handed out in boat loads. Suddenly CSM died quicker and did much less damage and the rules of engagement changed. It's taken me a long time to just accept that the CSM troops role has changed in this edition and they are not what they once were, they can't do as much heavy lifting anymore imo. They are there to just sit behind terrain on an objective now, maybe tank a few hits.

 

I'd like to see them improve but I don't think it will happen, so now I just treat them as objective holders in my deployment zone rather than units that actually support my offensive wings in my army. Will the pts discount do much or fix the problem? Meh, for me personally not really. I'm gaining 30pts in my 2000pt army, it wont change a thing to be honest but I'll take whatever I can get.

[techsoldaten]

 

I was simply pointing out that horde tactics are fluffy for roughly 5 of the major factions, a 6th if you count the Iron Warriors because they historically did and still do when they can, though that presents problems.

 

...

 

These factions don't suffer from the issue in question in the fluff, and I was responding to your statement that price decreases would promote horde tactics. Also you did say:  

To put it mildly, by "so much stronger" he wasn't referring to having bucketloads of power-armoured fodder to throw at their enemies. That isn't supported by the fluff at all. Producing new marines is incredibly difficult; just look at the insane amount of influence a single individual - Fabius Bile - is able to hold over entire Legions/Primarchs because of said difficulty. Look at how big a deal the prospect of regeneration is in the NL trilogy, for instance. This isn't the heresy, CSM can't just throw a hundred thousand marines at a problem they want to go away.

 

The factions I mentioned can throw large enough hordes of infantry at a problem that it should be a staple of their tactics on the tabletop and therefore a points decrease doesn't hurt the army's portrayal of the fluff. 

 

Of course, you also did say:

 

I'm not accusing people who like taking large numbers of marines of being unfaithful to the lore.

 

So maybe I'm just confused by your choice of words. I agree that CSM should receive buffs as well, especially for Marks and Icons and such. However I'm not as dismayed by receiving a points decrease instead.

 

Hopefully we both understand each other better and we can move on to some other details.

 

 

Honestly, who believes a points decrease will lead to CSM horde armies?

 

If there was really a case for CSM hordes, it would lie with Cultists. Right now, you could take a Battalion with 6 max-sized squads and have 180 models on the table. In a 2000 point game, that would be less than half the cost of your army.

 

At 11 ppm, you could max out CSM squads the same way for 120 models. In a 2000 point game, it would be more than half the cost of the army. You'd have 2/3rds the number of wounds in exchange for a slightly better save in a meta where AP -2 is now common.

 

Arguably, you'd be better off with Cultists. For less wounds and a diminished save, what's the compelling reason to pay more for infantry? You could load up on heavy weapons but the best one - the chaincannon - is expensive and only shoots 24" against armies where line troops have guns that shoot 30". You still have to deal with morale, which will dictate HQ choices, and every transport that could carry a full unit costs more than 200 points.

 

GW solved the wrong problem. It's not about points, it's about durability. Army-wide AP -2 on Bolt Rifles means CSMs are outclassed, NuMarine shooting wounds 33% more often versus MEQ.

 

GW compensated by reducing the cost of CSMs to 33% of Intercessors. That would be fine, except that CSM shooting also wounds 33% less often versus 2 wound PEQ models (who still have a 3+ save.) In a stand up shootout between 10 Intercessors and 20 CSMs, the Intercessors win the majority of times because they make their saves 33% more often, while the CSMs fail at a rate 33% higher. They keep more guns on the field while taking out their opponents at a higher rate.

 

It's much greater than a 33% difference in efficiency. Talk about special weapons all you want, the basic math says if NuMarines shoot first they win that firefight about 80% of the time just due to model loss in the first turn of shooting. If CSMs shoot first, they lose that firefight about 65% of the time. And remember, those Bolt Rifles have a 30" range. It's a lose - lose for Chaos.

 

So CSM hordes are not an answer. 11 ppm doesn't solve anything, the current meta is defined by NuMarines and nothing about this changes how we think about lists. Maybe we see some better options for camping objectives or protecting the backfield, or maybe Red Corsairs get a boost because of their Stratagem. But any real benefit we may see from CA 2019 depends entirely on what happens with other units, this isn't the buff we need.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

Arguably, you'd be better off with Cultists. For less wounds and a diminished save, what's the compelling reason to pay more for infantry? You could load up on heavy weapons but the best one - the chaincannon - is expensive and only shoots 24" against armies where line troops have guns that shoot 30". You still have to deal with morale, which will dictate HQ choices, and every transport that could carry a full unit costs more than 200 points.

 

 

 

What about the venerable autocannon though? For 10 points you get 2 shots, the -1 ap bolters are missing and 2D at 48" range for dealing with primaris or other armies that fire at the 30" range. Yes those squads would have to be fairly static to take full advantage of the pewpew phase but it definitely helps and you could sprinkle plenty throughout a list with the lower cost of CSM. 

[Sonoftherubric21]

I find it interesting that the 30 inch range for Bolt Rifles keeps coming up. Its *AT BEST* a 1 turn advantage in most games from my experience. Its nifty but hardly game-breaking. 

 

Does EVERY marine player just castle this edition? Is that most peoples experiences?  My local Meta is Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Salamanders as the primary marine variants so perhaps I am not dealing with the IF and IH castle lists that most probably think of and more "come out and play" marines that don't generally castle up. 

 

Also when playing objective games (Note: I CANNOT speak to ITC as I know nothing about their mission/game types) I have found that the extra range is a neat bonus but its not the crux of the Primaris use. Those types of games usually force them to move out of their standard "castle and brick" formation for overlapping auras. 

[Irate Khornate]

I find it interesting that the 30 inch range for Bolt Rifles keeps coming up. Its *AT BEST* a 1 turn advantage in most games from my experience. Its nifty but hardly game-breaking. 

 

Does EVERY marine player just castle this edition? Is that most peoples experiences?  My local Meta is Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Salamanders as the primary marine variants so perhaps I am not dealing with the IF and IH castle lists that most probably think of and more "come out and play" marines that don't generally castle up. 

 

Also when playing objective games (Note: I CANNOT speak to ITC as I know nothing about their mission/game types) I have found that the extra range is a neat bonus but its not the crux of the Primaris use. Those types of games usually force them to move out of their standard "castle and brick" formation for overlapping auras. 

I mostly play against Iron Hands, Smurfs, and Imperial Fists, the castling is unreal when they are going against a shorter ranged army. Smurfs in particular are nasty about it since they get to back pedal and treat it as if they didn't move. However there is good news, with the new found time I have since I no longer play, my army is getting painted much faster.

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

I find it interesting that the 30 inch range for Bolt Rifles keeps coming up. Its *AT BEST* a 1 turn advantage in most games from my experience. Its nifty but hardly game-breaking. 

 

Does EVERY marine player just castle this edition? Is that most peoples experiences?  My local Meta is Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Salamanders as the primary marine variants so perhaps I am not dealing with the IF and IH castle lists that most probably think of and more "come out and play" marines that don't generally castle up. 

 

Also when playing objective games (Note: I CANNOT speak to ITC as I know nothing about their mission/game types) I have found that the extra range is a neat bonus but its not the crux of the Primaris use. Those types of games usually force them to move out of their standard "castle and brick" formation for overlapping auras. 

I mostly play against Iron Hands, Smurfs, and Imperial Fists, the castling is unreal when they are going against a shorter ranged army. Smurfs in particular are nasty about it since they get to back pedal and treat it as if they didn't move. However there is good news, with the new found time I have since I no longer play, my army is getting painted much faster.

 

 

Ouch. That is fair. Against something like that I would probably have to stoop to list tailoring. I hate doing that but sometimes against chicanery like that you need to unfortunately. 

[Lord_Starscream]

 

 

Arguably, you'd be better off with Cultists. For less wounds and a diminished save, what's the compelling reason to pay more for infantry? You could load up on heavy weapons but the best one - the chaincannon - is expensive and only shoots 24" against armies where line troops have guns that shoot 30". You still have to deal with morale, which will dictate HQ choices, and every transport that could carry a full unit costs more than 200 points.

 

 

 

What about the venerable autocannon though? For 10 points you get 2 shots, the -1 ap bolters are missing and 2D at 48" range for dealing with primaris or other armies that fire at the 30" range. Yes those squads would have to be fairly static to take full advantage of the pewpew phase but it definitely helps and you could sprinkle plenty throughout a list with the lower cost of CSM. 

 

 

That's the route I'm trying. I'm loading up x3 to x4 squads with Autocannons, and then maybe even adding Havoc autocannos, to see how it fairs.

[techsoldaten]

I find it interesting that the 30 inch range for Bolt Rifles keeps coming up. Its *AT BEST* a 1 turn advantage in most games from my experience. Its nifty but hardly game-breaking. 

 

Does EVERY marine player just castle this edition? Is that most peoples experiences?  My local Meta is Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Salamanders as the primary marine variants so perhaps I am not dealing with the IF and IH castle lists that most probably think of and more "come out and play" marines that don't generally castle up. 

 

Also when playing objective games (Note: I CANNOT speak to ITC as I know nothing about their mission/game types) I have found that the extra range is a neat bonus but its not the crux of the Primaris use. Those types of games usually force them to move out of their standard "castle and brick" formation for overlapping auras. 

 

I'm the one who keeps bringing up the 30" range on Bolt Rifles.

 

It matters. A game of 40k is 5 turns. 6 and 7 are bonus rounds. A one turn advantage is 20% of the game.

 

With guns that wound 33% more often. Against troops with 50% fewer wounds. Who have tanks that can put out 30+ more shots per turn than ours for +50% of the cost. And who can outright deny charges from deep strike. And who evade charges while keeping your army in range just by moving backwards.

 

The cumulative effect of these buffs add up to a major advantage. Range is the key factor, it's not just the extra shooting but the fact it's outside all but the longest charge distances. Chaos always has to close a gap.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

I find it interesting that the 30 inch range for Bolt Rifles keeps coming up. Its *AT BEST* a 1 turn advantage in most games from my experience. Its nifty but hardly game-breaking. 

 

Does EVERY marine player just castle this edition? Is that most peoples experiences?  My local Meta is Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Salamanders as the primary marine variants so perhaps I am not dealing with the IF and IH castle lists that most probably think of and more "come out and play" marines that don't generally castle up. 

 

Also when playing objective games (Note: I CANNOT speak to ITC as I know nothing about their mission/game types) I have found that the extra range is a neat bonus but its not the crux of the Primaris use. Those types of games usually force them to move out of their standard "castle and brick" formation for overlapping auras. 

I mostly play against Iron Hands, Smurfs, and Imperial Fists, the castling is unreal when they are going against a shorter ranged army. Smurfs in particular are nasty about it since they get to back pedal and treat it as if they didn't move. However there is good news, with the new found time I have since I no longer play, my army is getting painted much faster.

 

 

Ouch. That is fair. Against something like that I would probably have to stoop to list tailoring. I hate doing that but sometimes against chicanery like that you need to unfortunately. 

 

It doesn't even have to be castling. They can move FORWARD on turn 1 to get into optimal range and blast away with stratagems, litanies, etc. Rapid Fire + a Chapter Master and LT means a squad just dies....and somewhere else on the table, they're firing away with Stalkers and Target Sighted to delete characters.  A charge brings rerolled Overwatch, sometimes at easier numbers, and then they still have 3 Attacks per Model (4 for the Sarge) and possibly a Thunder Hammer in the squad for just such an occasion.

 

That's if you make combat, because it's raining Tremor Shells from that double-firing Thunderfire Cannon  in the back.

 

Tactical Doctrine kicks in, the folks with the Auto Bolt rifles Advance and drop Boltstorm.....ANOTHER squad just vaporizes while Aggressors move up and plant their feet for the apocalypse to come.

 

This is the type of hell that's honestly SUPPOSED to face those who fight Marines.

 

Unfortunately, there are a huge chunk of "Marine" armies that just can't pull it off correctly.

 

For CSM, the tricks were once there in both lore and rules.....veteran skills, bonuses from marks, heavily armed squad leaders, close-range summoning that enabled auto-charges from daemons, Possessed that could either choose their options or made their dice rolls before the game (depending on edition). There was a great deal more reliable, potent offense available, though it was very front-loaded and usually required a very offensive playstyle.

 

Loyalists establish superiority with shock and awe and then wear you down with mechanistic precision until you're done. Chaos just keeps hitting you in the face from the opening bell until you fall over, while screaming the names of their dark gods and throwing insults at enemies who've been dead for millennia. We need that hitting power back. 

 

There was a very brief golden period right at the end of 3rd Edition when the 4th Edition rules were released in beta form and both CSM and Loyalist SM had their Pete Haines codexes. The two were well matched against each other with the Loyalists being more durable and more able to seize and hold ground while CSM had bucketloads of raw killing power that allowed them to often make up the difference. We need that type of balance between the two again if at all possible without wrecking the meta for everyone else.

 

In the meantime? Tailor for NuMarines and find ways to add bits around the edges that will help you against others. That should work fairly often, especially in more holistic GW-style tournaments where every army faces at least a mission or two that takes it out of its comfort zone.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

I tested Black Legion chaos marine spam in two small ITC tournaments and 1 ETC 5 game tournament. It was definitely the 24" range limit in my list that screwed me over but I could just weigh down non-optimal lists pretty easily.

 

30 dead marines a turn was pretty normal.

 

Game lethality can be pretty alpha-strike dependent. If your opponent is killing more stuff than you are then you'll be tabled around turn 3, if high output targets can be dropped on turn 1 then everything else will last longer.

 

How many units of CSM? Any heavy weapons?

 

 

6 (+1 of raptors) but they were all different sizes due to trying to squeeze a collection into a points value. I had two plasma squads and a melta squad. Only heavy weapons were a heavy bolter each in two five man units because I needed to spend all my time advancing using the black legion trait to get any shots off with most of my army.

 

I posted the list somewhere in the Black Legion thread.

 

Had a summary of the first time I used it in my wip thread.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339226-cs-plogging-for-chaos-unleash-the-hounds/?p=5337567

 

 

 

I've come to accept that my CSM troops just won't contribute as much as they did pre-8th. In a way the only way for me to be happy about the basic CSM troop is to lower my expectations for them in this edition. Their stats and costs initially were the same as 7th and carried over but their offensive output and durability didn't. Where as back in 7th I could take a few squads and feel confident in their AP5 bolters messing most infantry up, and their power armour mitigating most most small to medium arms fire I felt pretty good about CSM troops combined with the buffs they got at the end of 7th in the traitor supplement.

 

You must have been in a very lucky 7th ed meta.

 

Only time I ever had regular marines count for anything was the 5th ed BA codex where everyone could get 4+ feel no pain.

 

 

 

If there was really a case for CSM hordes, it would lie with Cultists. Right now, you could take a Battalion with 6 max-sized squads and have 180 models on the table. In a 2000 point game, that would be less than half the cost of your army.

 

Presumably you weren't paying attention because before the points hike and drop on max unit size cultist horde WAS the chaos marine competitive meta.

 

I understand that 200 cultists is something only dedicated tournament players would bring around but there weren't any other chaos space marine lists worth anything on the top tables and the nerfs basically meant there weren't any competative lists once people realized Lord Discordants and Chaincannon havocs didn't make an army.

 

 

I find it interesting that the 30 inch range for Bolt Rifles keeps coming up. Its *AT BEST* a 1 turn advantage in most games from my experience. Its nifty but hardly game-breaking. 

 

Does EVERY marine player just castle this edition? Is that most peoples experiences?  My local Meta is Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Salamanders as the primary marine variants so perhaps I am not dealing with the IF and IH castle lists that most probably think of and more "come out and play" marines that don't generally castle up. 

 

Also when playing objective games (Note: I CANNOT speak to ITC as I know nothing about their mission/game types) I have found that the extra range is a neat bonus but its not the crux of the Primaris use. Those types of games usually force them to move out of their standard "castle and brick" formation for overlapping auras. 

 

My 30" primaris infantry army gets just as screwed over by everything that screws over my 24" chaos infantry army. If anything they're more screwed because there aren't really any long range primaris options other than suppressors and repulsors.

 

ITC is an objective game, you can't win ITC by castling.

[techsoldaten]

 

 

Arguably, you'd be better off with Cultists. For less wounds and a diminished save, what's the compelling reason to pay more for infantry? You could load up on heavy weapons but the best one - the chaincannon - is expensive and only shoots 24" against armies where line troops have guns that shoot 30". You still have to deal with morale, which will dictate HQ choices, and every transport that could carry a full unit costs more than 200 points.

 

 

 

What about the venerable autocannon though? For 10 points you get 2 shots, the -1 ap bolters are missing and 2D at 48" range for dealing with primaris or other armies that fire at the 30" range. Yes those squads would have to be fairly static to take full advantage of the pewpew phase but it definitely helps and you could sprinkle plenty throughout a list with the lower cost of CSM. 

 

 

We could talk about that.

 

Let's say I took 6 20x man CSM squads with 2 autocannons each. At 11ppm, with the Autocannons that's 240 per squad or 1440 points total. That gives me 12 S7 AP-1 shots per turn with 48" range.

 

I could take 3 Scorpius tanks for less than half that. That would mean 18D3 S6 AP -2 D2 shots with indirect fire with the same range (which averages around 30 per turn.) With some LOS blocking terrain, Primaris could never shoot them.

 

The difference in weapon strength doesn't matter, both need the same roll to wound. The real difference is all those Bolt Guns, which are going to lose gunfights to PEQ > 60% of the time. OTOH, with rerolls to hit and an average number of shots, each Scorpius destroys a 5 man Intercessor squad per turn.

 

In that scenario, do Bolt Guns matter? What do you gain from units with heavy weapons when there's better options? Even if you cut the CSMs down to 10 man squads, leaving the same number of heavy weapons for half the price, the Scorpius battery still costs less and does more damage per turn firing from a concealed position.

 

Again, I don't think GW did us any favors with 11ppm CSMs. They are outclassed by NuMarines and other Chaos units.

[techsoldaten]

 

If there was really a case for CSM hordes, it would lie with Cultists. Right now, you could take a Battalion with 6 max-sized squads and have 180 models on the table. In a 2000 point game, that would be less than half the cost of your army.

 

Presumably you weren't paying attention because before the points hike and drop on max unit size cultist horde WAS the chaos marine competitive meta.

 

I understand that 200 cultists is something only dedicated tournament players would bring around but there weren't any other chaos space marine lists worth anything on the top tables and the nerfs basically meant there weren't any competative lists once people realized Lord Discordants and Chaincannon havocs didn't make an army.

 

My point was Cultists are still a better horde option in a NuMarine meta than 11ppm CSMs. The points change is meaningless because CSMs are so outclassed by NuMarines.

 

I am not saying anyone should actually do this, CSMs should never take a horde army. That's suicide.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

I am not saying anyone should actually do this, CSMs should never take a horde army. That's suicide.

 

 

Its no more suicide than taking pretty much any other chaos list into a competitive environment.

[Lord_Starscream]

 

 

I am not saying anyone should actually do this, CSMs should never take a horde army. That's suicide.

 

 

Its no more suicide than taking pretty much any other chaos list into a competitive environment.

 

 

FIFY

[nanosquid]

I find it interesting that the 30 inch range for Bolt Rifles keeps coming up. Its *AT BEST* a 1 turn advantage in most games from my experience. Its nifty but hardly game-breaking. 

From your experience, maybe. But you're dead wrong. The advantage is not 6" on the long range - it's 3" extra inches of rapid fire (ignoring the strategems and bolter discipline that let that happen at 30"...).

 

If you don't think 3" makes a big difference, ask a Tyranid player about how many models they can tie up with their hormagaunts.