Chaos vs. New Marines

[Lord_Starscream]

 

I find it interesting that the 30 inch range for Bolt Rifles keeps coming up. Its *AT BEST* a 1 turn advantage in most games from my experience. Its nifty but hardly game-breaking. 

From your experience, maybe. But you're dead wrong. The advantage is not 6" on the long range - it's 3" extra inches of rapid fire (ignoring the strategems and bolter discipline that let that happen at 30"...).

 

If you don't think 3" makes a big difference, ask a Tyranid player about how many models they can tie up with their hormagaunts.

 

 

It also means you can start killing before they even get a shot off. Once that rapid fire eats into the CSM unit, they're going to suffer. 20 shots, 14 hit, 7 wound, 3/4 CSM die. They move into range the next turn, no rapid fire, but maybe special weapons. Let's say they brought twin chain cannons. 8 hits, 5 wounds, 1.5 Space Marines die, + another 1 from bolter rounds (maybe). 

 

Marines fire back. 16 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds, another 3 dead CSM.

The thing is, the marines get the benefits of 2 rounds of rapid fire, where as the CSM don't. And that 30 each range gives benefits beyond that. It let's you be tactically flexible, and forces your enemy to come to you. That's HUGE.

[MegaVolt87]

I am considering a move to a batalion, adding in 3x5 AC combi plas squads to complement my three double rotor rhino units for my IW's.

[BrainFireBob]

Fundamental issue is the change to ASM instead of AP- it cannot be balanced for the Marine power armor theme, combined with moving toward Apoc level games.

 

Against Numarines, CSM are a s4t4 5+ save unit. Against Guard, a s4 t4 3+ save unit. Their performance and "value" is too variable to point accurately, point them against Numarines and Guard becomes pointless. Their value becomes dependent on what they are facing- which is why game lethality is out of control.

 

Reverting was a stupid mistake by the studio with Marines being the flagship. Marines went from being en elite army that received saves most of the time and made most of those saves to having a small chance of saving more often than other armies.

 

Add to that, that the game went from platoon level combat with light armor support to adding Knight level units, and you have today's mess. Lethality has to cope with Knights, but units-not models, units- become glass cannons at best.

 

Edit: Imagine it- or try it. Doctrines mean Numarines go from wiping guard to wiping Aspect Warriors and Scions- but other Marines, even Oldmarines, become an attrition war. That can be balanced via points

Edited November 26, 2019 by BrainFireBob

[Closet Skeleton]

 

 

 

I am not saying anyone should actually do this, CSMs should never take a horde army. That's suicide.

 

 

Its no more suicide than taking pretty much any other chaos list into a competitive environment.

 

 

FIFY

 

 

Nah, I'd stomp through tons of casual environments with 100 power armoured chaos marines, this being from someone who takes weak lists to tournaments so gets to lose the decent lists and see what the bottom tables are like. I lost by a mere 2-3 points against a triple riptide list at ITC because my opponent took an unnecessary risk. Player skill matters a lot, its very easy for casual players to make game losing mistakes even when they're using stronger codexes.

 

Outside of the very forgiving marine book an optimized army from any codex will crush a randomly put together army and spamming models is a form of optimization. There are probably casual marine lists I could crush as well (for example a highlander list with a predator, land raider and plasma cannon devastators, some terminator squads and some inefficient character spam).

 

 

Fundamental issue is the change to ASM instead of AP- it cannot be balanced for the Marine power armor theme, combined with moving toward Apoc level games.

 

Power armour was garbage in the old AP system. 4+ saves were better and 2+ saves were completely worthless.

 

Super heavy proliferation is one thing but if 2k in 8th ed is anything close to apocalypse you were never playing apocalypse. Standard points score is 1750 for GW events in 8th ed, it was 1850 for 7th so even with points drops you're not getting a ton more models in 8th than in 7th.

 

Lots of things have also gone up in points in 8th ed. 8th ed rhinos are 67-72 points, 7th ed ones were free. A 7th ed double demi-company is way over 1850 points in 8th ed.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Closet Skeleton

[BrainFireBob]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am not saying anyone should actually do this, CSMs should never take a horde army. That's suicide.

 

Its no more suicide than taking pretty much any other chaos list into a competitive environment.

FIFY

Nah, I'd stomp through tons of casual environments with 100 power armoured chaos marines. I lost by a mere 2-3 points against a triple riptide list at ITC because my opponent took an unnecessary risk. Player skill matters a lot, its very easy for casual players to make game losing mistakes even when they're using stronger codexes.

 

Outside of the very forgiving marine book an optimized army from any codex will crush a randomly put together army and spamming models is a form of optimization. There are probably casual marine lists I could crush as well (for example a highlander list with a predator, land raider and plasma cannon devastators, some terminator squads and some inefficient character spam).

 

Fundamental issue is the change to ASM instead of AP- it cannot be balanced for the Marine power armor theme, combined with moving toward Apoc level games.

Power armour was garbage in the old AP system.

 

Super heavy proliferation is one thing but if 2k in 8th ed is anything close to apocalypse you were never playing apocalypse. Standard points score is 1750 for GW events in 8th ed, it was 1850 for 7th so even with points drops you're not getting a ton more models in 8th than in 7th.

 

Lots of things have also gone up in points in 8th ed. 8th ed rhinos are 67-72 points, 7th ed ones were free. A 7th ed double demi-company is way over 1850 points in 8th ed.

I go back to to 3rd, I'm not talking about "7th". Rhinos cost anywhere from 50 points to free.

 

And points are diving down in 8th- and they have to, is part of my point. Yes, they initially raised them, and it's disappearing.

 

And I am talking about Apoc units, not size of game. Superheavies should never have been included, they are either coin toss units (you can handle them or stand there and get shredded) or the lethality of everything needs to go up or their durability down to not do what debaters call "defining your opponent out of the round"

[BrainFireBob]

Can't edit.

 

Is it really your opinion that power armor is better today? What used to ignore it still does, and what used to allow your full save allows only a reduced save. In your reality, is a 4+ or 5+ versus small arms truly better than a 3+?

[Lord_Starscream]

Can't edit.

 

Is it really your opinion that power armor is better today? What used to ignore it still does, and what used to allow your full save allows only a reduced save. In your reality, is a 4+ or 5+ versus small arms truly better than a 3+?

 

I'm of the opinion most armour is flatly bad now, given the state of things that ignore it / reduce it.

WOUNDS, wounds are what matter now. They're the real armour :(

[BrainFireBob]

Right, but the marine cost model is to pay for that armor as if they get it.

 

Some people think points are absolute indicators of performance, thers's utility cost, opportunity cost, etc.

Sure, storm bolters are good now. Power weapons have value. Setting each with an absolute "value" gives the obscenity of GK strike squads being worthless. Sometimes 2 is more than twice as good as 1, but there are also diminishing returns. 1 vet sarge boosts a unit, a unit of vet sergeants yields little gain.

[techsoldaten]

 

 

I am not saying anyone should actually do this, CSMs should never take a horde army. That's suicide.

 

 

Its no more suicide than taking pretty much any other chaos list into a competitive environment.

 

 

Chaos can win games. We need to adapt to the meta and stop pretending NuMarines are omnipotent.

 

I play in a competitive meta. Right now, I'm running a Daemon Primarch list, a Black Legion Gunline, and an 'Experimental' list. The opponents I face most often are Ultramarines, Dark Eldar, Guard, Imperial Knights and Orks. I'm starting to see some Iron Hands and Imperial Fists.

 

It helps to think about NuMarines as an elite army whose power diminishes with each unit lost. Their main advantages are Chapter Tactics / Doctrines, their secondary advantages are better stats and mechanics.

 

My Daemon Primarch list works because I'm charging turn 1, before Tactical Doctrine has a chance to kick in. As long as one Primarch gets into close combat, I can count on most of my opponent's army being tied up until the end of turn 3. I bring a Nurgle detachment to hold points and a Sicaran to snipe tanks from the backfield.

 

My Black Legion Gunline works because I have 20+ lascannons shooting at 48" with rerolls to hit from Abaddon. My opponent can't turtle or cross the board safely, he usually can't shoot back with much until turn 3. Something NuMarines don't have a lot of is long range shooting, I can usually pick off the units with good guns early (i.e. Repulsors.) Sometimes, I swap some lascannons for Scorpius tanks - think about what that does to an army trying to turtle.

 

Anything I want to test goes into the Experimental list. Last game, I ran a list consisting of double Heldrakes, Bikes, Havocs, Oblits, and Daemon Princes and lost. But I did learn how to screw with NuMarine deployment, I kept most of his army pinned on his side of the table the first three turns of the game and separated his HQs from his main force. It ended closer than I expected.

 

In each case, the list is designed to make it hard for NuMarines to execute on one or more of their strengths. There's no magic to it, you just have to win without fighting a mid-range battle. It's different than a traditional Chaos list, but it can be done.

[nanosquid]

 

I play in a competitive meta. Right now, I'm running a Daemon Primarch list, a Black Legion Gunline, and an 'Experimental' list. The opponents I face most often are Ultramarines, Dark Eldar, Guard, Imperial Knights and Orks. I'm starting to see some Iron Hands and Imperial Fists.

 

I'm just going to quote this and let you think about it for a second.

 

You are taking Daemon Primarchs to stay competitive vs Ultramarines, Iron Hands, and Imperial Fists.This is a game design problem. My first loyalty will always be to my Orks, but as my Iron Warriors are my current army project, I've been engrossed in this section of the hobby. Frankly, I find the level of Stockholm Syndrome I have observed among the online CSM playerbase genuinely sickening. Centerpiece models like Magnus and Mortarion should not be a requirement to have a chance of winning a game vs regular armies. It is not the responsibility of the customer to balance game systems professionals are, presumably, being paid well to make engaging and rewarding to play regardless of your choice of miniatures.

[MegaVolt87]

I think we are about the only faction that needs our FW stuff as mandatory, not extra's to compete. A lot of the enmity is as well is SM can play straight out of the dex effectively, we are more of an artisan, bespoke force right now. "Competitive" CSM will lean on FW, its ironic I could do chaos knights with red corsairs CP battery and no one bats an eye, then I roll up with sicarans and people get mad- when the CK battery is the more OP cheese build.   

Edited November 26, 2019 by MegaVolt87

[techsoldaten]

 

 

I play in a competitive meta. Right now, I'm running a Daemon Primarch list, a Black Legion Gunline, and an 'Experimental' list. The opponents I face most often are Ultramarines, Dark Eldar, Guard, Imperial Knights and Orks. I'm starting to see some Iron Hands and Imperial Fists.

 

I'm just going to quote this and let you think about it for a second.

 

You are taking Daemon Primarchs to stay competitive vs Ultramarines, Iron Hands, and Imperial Fists.This is a game design problem. My first loyalty will always be to my Orks, but as my Iron Warriors are my current army project, I've been engrossed in this section of the hobby. Frankly, I find the level of Stockholm Syndrome I have observed among the online CSM playerbase genuinely sickening. Centerpiece models like Magnus and Mortarion should not be a requirement to have a chance of winning a game vs regular armies. It is not the responsibility of the customer to balance game systems professionals are, presumably, being paid well to make engaging and rewarding to play regardless of your choice of miniatures.

 

 

Two points in response:

 

- I get the problem, you're preaching to the choir. I just finished arguing in other posts that 11ppm CSMs do nothing for Chaos and picked apart all the ways NuMarines outclass them. GW is trying to address game design problems with points alterations and it leaves a lot of players in the dust.

 

- I didn't say Daemon Primarchs are required to beat NuMarines. I did say my lists focus on the weaknesses of NuMarines. Huge difference. I've played a Black Legion Gunline throughout most of 8th edition and still am, can't get more fluffy than that.

 

I don't see how that can be considered Stockholm Syndrome. Earlier in this thread, I posted a breakdown of what works and what doesn't for Chaos armies in a NuMarines meta. This is me trying to deconstruct the situation and figure out how to adapt.

 

Maybe try to find a constructive way to respond instead of reacting to the imbalances that currently exist. There is nothing new about GW changing the meta, it's been part of the game since I first started. No matter what, the current meta is not as bad for CSMs as they were late 6th / all of 7th editions.

[nanosquid]

 

 

Two points in response:

 

- I get the problem, you're preaching to the choir. I just finished arguing in other posts that 11ppm CSMs do nothing for Chaos and picked apart all the ways NuMarines outclass them. GW is trying to address game design problems with points alterations and it leaves a lot of players in the dust.

 

- I didn't say Daemon Primarchs are required to beat NuMarines. I did say my lists focus on the weaknesses of NuMarines. Huge difference. I've played a Black Legion Gunline throughout most of 8th edition and still am, can't get more fluffy than that.

 

I don't see how that can be considered Stockholm Syndrome. Earlier in this thread, I posted a breakdown of what works and what doesn't for Chaos armies in a NuMarines meta. This is me trying to deconstruct the situation and figure out how to adapt.

 

Maybe try to find a constructive way to respond instead of reacting to the imbalances that currently exist. There is nothing new about GW changing the meta, it's been part of the game since I first started. No matter what, the current meta is not as bad for CSMs as they were late 6th / all of 7th editions.

 

 

It's less what you said specifically and more the fact that Lords of War, in general, drive me up the wall. Once upon a time (or so I'm told), 40k was a platoon-level tactics/strategy game. There's very little strategy to me in "I brought the biggest toys and the requisite minions". I don't like the way the game plays with juggernauts like that on the field, and find very little enjoyment in playing LoW units on EITHER side. I get it, the scale of 40k is absurd and that's part of the charm - but to use a chess analogy, I'd find a game of 4 bishops vs 2 knights and 2 rooks way more interesting than 4 bishops vs a queen and 3 pawns, even if they were perfectly balanced somehow. I don't feel like I've outsmarted a player when I use my LoW choice or destroy theirs. I feel like I've rolled some dice and got luckier than they did. The reason the new SM vs CSM matchup infuriates me so is because they get "pawns" and "bishops" that are superior versions of the other side's.

 

NONE of this would have been an issue if they hadn't insisted on printing a version 2 codex for CSM. If they had simply left things alone and printed the new content in Vigilus and now Faith and Fury no one would be as upset - but to have a "new" codex handed to you right before the other most similar faction gets an ACTUAL new codex with major fixes to balance and fun factor is straight-up insulting, and I don't want to support a company that does that, regardless of how much I love their models.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Nazgob

[MegaVolt87]

If LOW are going to be in the game, GW let them. I will never forgive them for the points increases on the FW legion super heavy tanks, which should be immediately reversed to the release points in the FW Chaos index or even discounted a bit from the release points. 

[Khornestar]

If LOW are going to be in the game, GW let them. I will never forgive them for the points increases on the FW legion super heavy tanks, which should be immediately reversed to the release points in the FW Chaos index or even discounted a bit from the release points. 

 

Revising those changes would do a lot for the faction. Same with the daemon units. Same with R&H, but I think that's just not gonna happen.

[Irate Khornate]

I've tried gun line sans black legion and it doesn't work nearly as well. The part that I've never understood was Abaddon being the only source of the chapter master aura that chaos has (small exception of Khârn's 1" bubble). Not even the Daemon Primarchs have it which really throws me for a loop.

[techsoldaten]

 

 

 

Two points in response:

 

- I get the problem, you're preaching to the choir. I just finished arguing in other posts that 11ppm CSMs do nothing for Chaos and picked apart all the ways NuMarines outclass them. GW is trying to address game design problems with points alterations and it leaves a lot of players in the dust.

 

- I didn't say Daemon Primarchs are required to beat NuMarines. I did say my lists focus on the weaknesses of NuMarines. Huge difference. I've played a Black Legion Gunline throughout most of 8th edition and still am, can't get more fluffy than that.

 

I don't see how that can be considered Stockholm Syndrome. Earlier in this thread, I posted a breakdown of what works and what doesn't for Chaos armies in a NuMarines meta. This is me trying to deconstruct the situation and figure out how to adapt.

 

Maybe try to find a constructive way to respond instead of reacting to the imbalances that currently exist. There is nothing new about GW changing the meta, it's been part of the game since I first started. No matter what, the current meta is not as bad for CSMs as they were late 6th / all of 7th editions.

 

 

It's less what you said specifically and more the fact that Lords of War, in general, drive me up the wall. Once upon a time (or so I'm told), 40k was a platoon-level tactics/strategy game. There's very little strategy to me in "I brought the biggest toys and the requisite minions". I don't like the way the game plays with juggernauts like that on the field, and find very little enjoyment in playing LoW units on EITHER side. I get it, the scale of 40k is absurd and that's part of the charm - but to use a chess analogy, I'd find a game of 4 bishops vs 2 knights and 2 rooks way more interesting than 4 bishops vs a queen and 3 pawns, even if they were perfectly balanced somehow. I don't feel like I've outsmarted a player when I use my LoW choice or destroy theirs. I feel like I've rolled some dice and got luckier than they did. The reason the new SM vs CSM matchup infuriates me so is because they get "pawns" and "bishops" that are superior versions of the other side's.

 

NONE of this would have been an issue if they hadn't insisted on printing a version 2 codex for CSM. If they had simply left things alone and printed the new content in Vigilus and now Faith and Fury no one would be as upset - but to have a "new" codex handed to you right before the other most similar faction gets an ACTUAL new codex with major fixes to balance and fun factor is straight-up insulting, and I don't want to support a company that does that, regardless of how much I love their models.

 

 

That makes sense, and sorry if I responded too sharply.

 

The situation with CSMs doesn't seem as dire to me as others describe it. NuMarines do outclass a traditional CSM list by a wide margin, but I'm glad we have so many options to choose from.

 

The hardest part for me has been losing Bloodletter Bombs. Most of the lists I face now feature at least one unit of Infiltrators, which makes deep strike charges impossible. OTOH, I've enjoyed exploring different playstyles, which has always been part of the appeal for me.

 

I disagree with the idea that C:CSM v2 is the source of the problem. With all the new models, they needed to consolidate the rules in a single place. I'd rather have that book than a dated, incomplete version.

 

I've tried gun line sans black legion and it doesn't work nearly as well. The part that I've never understood was Abaddon being the only source of the chapter master aura that chaos has (small exception of Khârn's 1" bubble). Not even the Daemon Primarchs have it which really throws me for a loop.

 

All I ever do is put everything in range of Abaddon's reroll bubble. Shoot tanks and long-range units first, then move onto elites / heavy infantry. I keep various beatsticks nearby to go after anything that gets close and a Cultist screen to prevent easy charges.

[Guzzlrr]

I find a red Corsairs monster mash with smash Lord & lascannon havoks work quite well but again most of you who've seen my posts around here know my general opinions.

 

I love the fact Primartchs are back. Don't care if they're not as good as the should be but I love me some big scary I'm gonna wreck your entire life units, Magnus & Mortarion if played correctly do just that even against NU-marines

Points reductions are definitely required in CA

 

Right now CSM is in a sorry state. But it's a challenge. When I beat my friends who are just as competitive as me, its definitely I beat your shenagins with a borked codex situation.i managed to figure out a Death Guard list that owns in our meta after some lengthy refining I kinda love that process and I'm getting there with black legion

 

I've been trying to make my Black legion with abaddon work as a pure gunline, not using DPs and trying to play differently. Was fun being able to switch a couple things out and put the hurt on big time especially with NU-marines kick the poop out of them and be able to say let's not get too cocky

Edited November 27, 2019 by Guzzlrr

[Sonoftherubric21]

I find a red Corsairs monster mash with smash Lord & lascannon havoks work quite well but again most of you who've seen my posts around here know my general opinions.

 

I love the fact Primartchs are back. Don't care if they're not as good as the should be but I love me some big scary I'm gonna wreck your entire life units, Magnus & Mortarion if played correctly do just that even against NU-marines

Points reductions are definitely required in CA

 

Right now CSM is in a sorry state. But it's a challenge. When I beat my friends who are just as competitive as me, its definitely I beat your shenagins with a borked codex situation.i managed to figure out a Death Guard list that owns in our meta after some lengthy refining I kinda love that process and I'm getting there with black legion

 

I've been trying to make my Black legion with abaddon work as a pure gunline, not using DPs and trying to play differently. Was fun being able to switch a couple things out and put the hurt on big time especially with NU-marines kick the poop out of them and be able to say let's not get too cocky

 

Yes the codex is totally goosed like up Creek without a paddle and a leaky boat in gator country, but i do firmly believe that (based on no actual facts I can perceive atm) that were getting love down the pipe. I think 2.0 was a miscommunication. A sign that we know it's borked somethings coming but here's everything consolidated in the meantime.

 

Is it yeah CSM Has always been the ginger step child but there's nothing better than winning in the face of some righteous bull:cuss.

 

Iron Within.

 

THAT is the attitude I like to see! Lol. 

 

I totally agree with the line of reasoning you use. I am the same in that regard trying variable unique lists....not all of which work 

 

However, 2.0 does feel like a stop-gap until a real "next edition" chaos codex comes following the new design philosophy of Marines and Sisters dexs with mono-codex bonuses and such. 

 

I personally would love to run my entire list as a singular legion.  Unfortunately due to the rules being in such an odd disparate state I find myself going 2-3 detachments and EACH are different legions or renegades. And this is coming from *ME* as I don't even play in a super competitive meta. The new marine dex has gone above and beyond in power level and as such I have to compensate though mix-and-matching Legion choices. 

 

I actually hate doing that, but its almost required at this point to put up a fight. 

[Midnight Brotherhood]

Well the rumour goes that the 40k 9th edition is coming in next summer and that the current SM codex is almost like a 9th edition codex. So what we might see is a new edition heralded in by new codexes given a 2.0 treatment so to speak. Similar to when AoS made the jump from 1.0 to 2.0 and the codexes creeped up in power in 2.0. Our codex was second after SM at the release of 8th so it wouldn't surprise me if we saw a new codex next summer, followed by 2.0 codexes and releases after that. It would keep the money rolling in for GW and appease their shareholders of constant release so it wouldn't surprise me. The psychic awakening also seems to point to Endless 'psyker' spells AoS style, wouldn't be the first time of 40k borrowing off AoS.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Midnight Brotherhood

[Marshal Loss]

There's a good chance that Faith & Fury is intended to be forward compatible with a new codex (thus the lack of traits), but it's best to keep expectations low given GW's horrific track record. For all we know it might be well 1-2 years + until a major CSM-specific update.

[TrawlingCleaner]

Well the rumour goes that the 40k 9th edition is coming in next summer and that the current SM codex is almost like a 9th edition codex. So what we might see is a new edition heralded in by new codexes given a 2.0 treatment so to speak. Similar to when AoS made the jump from 1.0 to 2.0 and the codexes creeped up in power in 2.0. Our codex was second after SM at the release of 8th so it wouldn't surprise me if we saw a new codex next summer, followed by 2.0 codexes and releases after that. It would keep the money rolling in for GW and appease their shareholders of constant release so it wouldn't surprise me. The psychic awakening also seems to point to Endless 'psyker' spells AoS style, wouldn't be the first time of 40k borrowing off AoS.

 

I agree with this. AoS was definitely a test bed for a lot of things. Edition 1.0 was the testing ground, getting a majority of the first founding factions rules out there with adding in a few new entirely factions/update old ones. Over two years they changed how the game works and refined things, culminatiing in edition 2.0 where they release a few more new factions/updated factions. 1.0 was setting down the ground works and 2.0 is seeming to be way more in depth, giving fluffy bonuses and changing the way lists are built. The SM codex and the sisters codex are proof of this and it's pretty clear this is the way forward. I also wholeheartedly believe that the Slaanesh release was a test bed for 40k test models and the "artist liberty" (read weird demon nudity) that they could get away with.

 

I have no idea on the timeline of it but this is definitely a tide-over for the next 6 months if rumours are to be believed.

[Closet Skeleton]

 

I go back to to 3rd, I'm not talking about "7th". Rhinos cost anywhere from 50 points to free.

 

In 3rd ed there was no apocalypse and super heavies could show up in any game that allowed forge world or vehicle/monster design rules.

 

Can't edit.

 

Is it really your opinion that power armor is better today? What used to ignore it still does, and what used to allow your full save allows only a reduced save. In your reality, is a 4+ or 5+ versus small arms truly better than a 3+?

 

Its really my opinion that power armour was better at the start of 8th then during some previous editions like the world of triple plasma gun guard veteran squads in 5th. I'm not sure about 'today'. 2+ or 3+ saves in cover was better than 4+/5+ cover saves.

 

It wasn't until cheap dark eldar disintegrator fire started proliferating that my marines started dying fast.

 

AP -1 is the old AP 4, AP-2 is the old AP 3 so yes, 5+ vs small arms is better than no save at all which is what hotshot lasguns and rubric marine bolters give and tactical doctrine intercessors now do much better. Then 4+ in cover is exactly what you got in previous editions (or at least in 5th onwards, skipped 4th and 3rd ed cover saves were usually only 5+).

 

The weight of shots matters more than the AP system.

[Guzzlrr]

There's a good chance that Faith & Fury is intended to be forward compatible with a new codex (thus the lack of traits), but it's best to keep expectations low given GW's horrific track record. For all we know it might be well 1-2 years + until a major CSM-specific update.

 

 

this is my hope. because looking at it especially with the Tyrannid changes seems PA2 chaos seems out of place here no?

[Aothaine]

I think one of the big problems that everyone experiences is codex creep. GW's release schedule is not the best for the competitive scene. But it is good for keeping a constant flow of money coming into the company. It is one of the reasons they are doing so well and have stayed alive for so long. It is a good business model for profits. I won't deny that CSM have kind of been ignored for awhile now but the way that GW has been reacting to the community over the past two years is SO good for the hobby. I think we need to remind ourselves that two years ago we had a GW that was not even balancing codices at all. No FAQs, No Updates, No Chapter Approved. There are a lot of old wounds within the CSM community and they are there for a reason. But as I have been saying. Give it some time. I really doubt that GW is going to continue down the path of letting CSM be so handi-capped against space marines for too much longer. They are releasing new model ranges for CSM slowly in prep for a new codex release that will happen. 

 

I still suspect we are going to get the space marine treatment. We'll get a CSM dex and legion supplements. It is going to be amazing when it happens as well. :D Already building up my World Eaters in prep for it. Well, building the list of models I need to buy anyway. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Aothaine