Chaos vs. New Marines

[Panzer]

I think one of the big problems that everyone experiences is codex creep. GW's release schedule is not the best for the competitive scene. But it is good for keeping a constant flow of money coming into the company. It is one of the reasons they are doing so well and have stayed alive for so long. It is a good business model for profits. I won't deny that CSM have kind of been ignored for awhile now but the way that GW has been reacting to the community over the past two years is SO good for the hobby. I think we need to remind ourselves that two years ago we had a GW that was not even balancing codices at all. No FAQs, No Updates, No Chapter Approved. There are a lot of old wounds within the CSM community and they are there for a reason. But as I have been saying. Give it some time. I really doubt that GW is going to continue down the path of letting CSM be so handi-capped against space marines for too much longer. They are releasing new model ranges for CSM slowly in prep for a new codex release that will happen. 

 

I still suspect we are going to get the space marine treatment. We'll get a CSM dex and legion supplements. It is going to be amazing when it happens as well. Already building up my World Eaters in prep for it. Well, building the list of models I need to buy anyway. 

 

Sorry, but there's only so much time one can give without being frustrated. I have yet to properly start my CSM project because of lack of Noise Marine models, so I'm not of those with old wounds or whatever but I can easily see why CSM players are frustrated and I honestly feel bad for them after seeing what they got and what most loyalist Marine players get.

There's no way you can put what GW does into nice words this time. Either Kelly&Co don't have a proper plan for every faction going forward and only focus on some few things like Primaris for now ... or it's just malice and they do it on purpose to CSM, Tyranids Grey Knights and whoever else is neglected. Neither is good.

They have improved yes, but they aren't perfect and in this regard they are simply failing so it's okay and right to be frustrated with it.

[Guzzlrr]

holy Jesus thats a whole lot of rumored price drops peeps, thought obviously doesn't fix the issues at hand it may give us more bang for our bucks at least whats everyone thoughts with these changes in mind ?

 

edits : bad not long up spelling

Edited November 29, 2019 by Guzzlrr

[Lord_Starscream]

holy Jesus thats a whole lot of rumored preice drops peeps, thought obviously dosnt fix the issues at hand it may give us more bang for our bucks at least whats everyone thoughts with these changes in mind ?

 

Poor.

 

Price drops don't really help when the units themselves are tactically incompetent. But, that's just me being doom and gloom, lol

[Guzzlrr]

whilst it isnt the fix i want or frankly deserve, I cant deny the excitement i have to write a list with these rumored changes.

[Lord_Starscream]

whilst it isnt the fix i want or frankly deserve, I cant deny the excitement i have to write a list with these rumored changes.

 

I'd argue it's not a fix. It's an attempted fix. Quantity can definitely help certain armies, but I don't know if that will be the case for Chaos.

 

I'd point out, it's much like watching an army of muskets, charging into battle against an army of men equiped with bolt action rifles. Just how many musketmen will it take? 

[Guzzlrr]

its not just about musket men though with Oblits and Demon engines having rumored drops cult etc it al together when its all tallied up makes a difference

[Lord_Starscream]

its not just about musket men though with Oblits and Demon engines having rumored drops cult etc it al together when its all tallied up makes a difference

 

All Daemon Engines is just a monster mash. It's not really an army. Its just chaff and Daemons. Which isn't really Chaos Space Marines in my opinion. It's just meh.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

 

holy Jesus thats a whole lot of rumored preice drops peeps, thought obviously dosnt fix the issues at hand it may give us more bang for our bucks at least whats everyone thoughts with these changes in mind ?

Poor.

 

Price drops don't really help when the units themselves are tactically incompetent. But, that's just me being doom and gloom, lol

The units aren't "tactically incompetent." They're inanimate objects. If there's any incompetence on the tabletop, it's the player.

[Lord_Starscream]

 

 

holy Jesus thats a whole lot of rumored preice drops peeps, thought obviously dosnt fix the issues at hand it may give us more bang for our bucks at least whats everyone thoughts with these changes in mind ?

Poor.

 

Price drops don't really help when the units themselves are tactically incompetent. But, that's just me being doom and gloom, lol

The units aren't "tactically incompetent." They're inanimate objects. If there's any incompetence on the tabletop, it's the player.

 

 

Poor range. Poor survivability. Poor models. Making them cheaper doesn't change that.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

If all of that is true, then why do people take Guard infantry squads? Eldar Guardians? Dire Avengers? Scions? Kabalites? Fire Warrior? Gaunts? They all the same or worse range, worse toughness, worse armor saves...but they all get played.

 

24" isn't poor, its standard for infantry small arms. T4 3+ isn't poor defensive stats; it's actually better than the majority of infantry in the game (and unlike Guardians et al, you have a chance of making a save against bolt rifles!).

 

Stop complaining about how much greener the grass is on the Loyalist side of the fence. Load your bolter, rev your chain axe, and go kill some corpse-worshippers for Chaos' sake...or go play loyalists so you can complain about everything Chaos getting a points drop.

[Lord_Starscream]

If all of that is true, then why do people take Guard infantry squads? Eldar Guardians? Dire Avengers? Scions? Kabalites? Fire Warrior? Gaunts? They all the same or worse range, worse toughness, worse armor saves...but they all get played.

 

24" isn't poor, its standard for infantry small arms. T4 3+ isn't poor defensive stats; it's actually better than the majority of infantry in the game (and unlike Guardians et al, you have a chance of making a save against bolt rifles!).

 

Stop complaining about how much greener the grass is on the Loyalist side of the fence. Load your bolter, rev your chain axe, and go kill some corpse-worshippers for Chaos' sake...or go play loyalists so you can complain about everything Chaos getting a points drop.

 

24 inches is poor.

 

For the first time in my life of 40k, and I've played since 2nd edition, the Guard infantry horde actually isn't that great atm.

 

They get played, and they die. We can see the results in the competitive scene, and we can see it trickling into local metas.

 

As someone who lived through 7th Edition Warhammer Fantasy Daemons of Chaos, this scenario feels very familiar to me.

[Irate Khornate]

 

 

 

holy Jesus thats a whole lot of rumored preice drops peeps, thought obviously dosnt fix the issues at hand it may give us more bang for our bucks at least whats everyone thoughts with these changes in mind ?

 

Poor.

Price drops don't really help when the units themselves are tactically incompetent. But, that's just me being doom and gloom, lol

The units aren't "tactically incompetent." They're inanimate objects. If there's any incompetence on the tabletop, it's the player.

 

Poor range. Poor survivability. Poor models. Making them cheaper doesn't change that.

If all of that is true, then why do people take Guard infantry squads? Eldar Guardians? Dire Avengers? Scions? Kabalites? Fire Warrior? Gaunts? They all the same or worse range, worse toughness, worse armor saves...but they all get played.

24" isn't poor, its standard for infantry small arms. T4 3+ isn't poor defensive stats; it's actually better than the majority of infantry in the game (and unlike Guardians et al, you have a chance of making a save against bolt rifles!).

Stop complaining about how much greener the grass is on the Loyalist side of the fence. Load your bolter, rev your chain axe, and go kill some corpse-worshippers for Chaos' sake...or go play loyalists so you can complain about everything Chaos getting a points drop.

They take those units because they are either cheap points wise , their special rules, their equipment, their ability to be buffed, or any combination of the above. That's why they take them , because they work. Your basic chaos Space Marine just does not work right now oh, the same with your standard tactical Marine. And that's why we don't see them on the table

[Brom MKIV]

I'm changing my opinion on the price drops. The list I took last night with new toys was badass. And now its 154 pts cheaper to boot.. that I know of so far.

I think its a good move without mirroring SM and will re energize this faction.

We can now easily throw down a brigade or triple battalions. I think it also makes some mono lists more viable in a less than super competitive meta. At least for those legions with a key unit(s) to build around. Which is most now I believe.  

[Special Officer Doofy]

If all of that is true, then why do people take Guard infantry squads? Eldar Guardians? Dire Avengers? Scions? Kabalites? Fire Warrior? Gaunts? They all the same or worse range, worse toughness, worse armor saves...but they all get played.

 

24" isn't poor, its standard for infantry small arms. T4 3+ isn't poor defensive stats; it's actually better than the majority of infantry in the game (and unlike Guardians et al, you have a chance of making a save against bolt rifles!).

 

Stop complaining about how much greener the grass is on the Loyalist side of the fence. Load your bolter, rev your chain axe, and go kill some corpse-worshippers for Chaos' sake...or go play loyalists so you can complain about everything Chaos getting a points drop.

Because those are all non-astartes factions and those are their troop choices?

 

I find it funny an Iron Hands player with their stalker bolt rifle infantry that can move and shoot heavies, reroll 1's, 36" -3AP 2D shots, 2W Primaris, hit over watch on 5+ and 6+ FNP for 17 pts feels the need to tell chaos players "stop complaining" hahaha. You're right. We can reroll morale on our 24" 0AP 1D shots on our 1W 11pts marines if we take word bearers (like all loyalist)! Or even give something -1 LD in 6" with night lords! Our grass is so friggin' green over here...

 

Edit: Grammer

Edited November 29, 2019 by Putrid Choir

[Sonoftherubric21]

I would actually like to add to this little back-and-forth. 

 

While I lean toward Iron Father Ferrum's attitude in game-play (work with what you got, they aren't total trash, and throw down) I also totally get where Lanparth, Irate, and Putrid are coming from. 

 

Right now the biggest innate weakness of Chaos IMHO is the fact that our BASIC Troops don't fulfill a solid role function. Eldar, Tau, Orks, and Guard don't really have this issue. Their troops do ONE THING and they do it (at some level) relatively well. 

 

Cultists are just that, guardsman without orders and supporting units and as such I am glad to see them back to 4ppm. 

 

Our Marines in large part due to the nonsense of our Legion traits are *HUGELY* problematic even with the price drop. Don't get me wrong I use em and I throw down with the buggers all the time but they often are mediocre at best on table. I don't agree with "they are total trash" but they are *INCREDIBLY* limited. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Because those are all non-astartes factions and those are their troop choices?

 

I find it funny an Iron Hands player with their stalker bolt rifle infantry that can move and shoot heavies, reroll 1's, 36" -3AP 2D shots, 2W Primaris, hit over watch on 5+ and 6+ FNP for 17 pts feels the need to tell chaos players "stop complaining" hahaha. You're right. We can reroll morale on our 24" 0AP 1D shots on our 1W 11pts marines if we take word bearers (like all loyalist)! Or even give something -1 LD in 6" with night lords! Our grass is so friggin' green over here...

 

Edit: Grammer

Your comparison is laughable to me because I'm a never-Primaris-player. I fill my Troop slots with Tactical Marines.

 

And yeah, those examples are indeed Troop choices. You know what CSM are? Yeah.

 

So Word Bearers' trait sucks. Alpha Legion's doesn't. Iron Warriors' doesn't. Black Legion's isn't terrible. If you're following the incoming PA2 leaks, you'd know that Word Bearers and Night Lords got some of the scariest upgrades imaginable.

 

I'm not trying to say Chaos is better off rules-wise than Codex Marines because I'm not a liar. But we're not the turd pile some of you are painting a picture of, and the point drops combined the Faith & Fury are only going to help level the playing field.

[Brom MKIV]

The amount of d2 weaponry that is very easy to come by combined with 4 pt ablatives is a strong foundation. The combo of these two puts SM back towards where they were before in terms of durability against us. Unfortunately they are still incredibly lethal but at least now theres more options than spam FW and discos. Theres some pretty insane combo's we have access to. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

How can you say the Iron warriors trait doesn't suck? Compare them to their loyalist counter part Iron fists, regardless if you use tactical or Primaris.

 

Iron warriors get ignore cover saves on infantry, bikers, and helbrutes.

 

Iron Fists get ignore cover saves, bolter hits of 6 count as two hits, -1AP on heavies and grenades, and +1 damage to vehicles with heavies on ALL units.

 

That's fair to you? Alpha legion has the lovely -1 to be hit from 12" trait but they are the only trait worth a damn, and if/when they redo traits I doubt they will keep it (like Raven Guard).

[Irate Khornate]

Alright, I'm backing off of this because the arguing is getting nowhere in terms of how to win vs primaris.

 

So far the lists I've seen and played that work decently have been Monster Mash via daemon engines,greater daemons, Primarchs, and knights using cultists to capture objectives. The other is Black Legion Gunline.

 

My Nightlords deepstrike assault got ate via the set up strat. My Word Bearers possessed mob got exorcised before they got in charging range. Rerolls to hits and not missed hits threw off my plans with Alpha Legion. As for my precious World Eaters, the move up 9" stratagem before 1st turn makes a world of difference. But for me it became a coin flip game depending if I got 1st turn.

 

Dawn of war deployment has been my bane. All others haven't been too bad.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Irate Khornate

[Iron Father Ferrum]

How can you say the Iron warriors trait doesn't suck? Compare them to their loyalist counter part Iron fists, regardless if you use tactical or Primaris.

Because I don't compare it to other armies. I ask, "does this rule have sufficient utility that it actually helps me win games?"

 

Stop looking over the fence and concentrate on your making *your* army work.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I see a lot of posts about how CSM are supposed to play. I'm gonna got out on a limb and guess that's interpretation from how CSM are/were represented in past editions, fluff, novels, etc. Can you honestly say that any of the army's rules or lists used in competitive metas actually reflects fluff? Competitive tournaments are not the environment for that and I don't believe anyone would deny that as fact. 

 

Guys, the game is limited, and I don't really know if there is going to be a way to have every single faction in 40k play as they are supposed to in the fluff and have everything be even across the board. That's one reason I like HH so much is when it comes to the legions there is a decent amount of balance and uniqueness.

 

My first army was SWs and it's pained me to no end that my entire collection is not worth playing or is remotely competitive. Not all loyalist have it the same, so lets stop pretending like the primaris "nu-marines" are the problem.. the units themselves are not, it's just the newest rules in C:SMs, and that's not new, it's just the most recent frustration. 

Edited November 30, 2019 by Bloody Legionnaire

[Brom MKIV]

Part of the problem I believe is preconceived views on how csm is supposed to play. Related to that is loyalty to a single legion and lastly is building around model collection. I say this as someone who had/has hangups with all these and now my close friend who's only played for 2 editions is going through similar. It's a great way to play the game on the one hand. A bit idealistic, and also misplaced. Loyalty to fluff and units just can't translate to competitive or even semi competitive gaming all the time.

 

Related to that is another issue.. SM play casual at a competitive level. Their power level is so high we really can't face them in equal terms without some form of "power concession" and probably some list tailoring. But there's nothing wrong with that once we break the stigma of what we're supposed to be. It's liberating to me.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Brom MKIV

[Special Officer Doofy]

Because I don't compare it to other armies. I ask, "does this rule have sufficient utility that it actually helps me win games?"

 

Stop looking over the fence and concentrate on your making *your* army work.

If you only compare chaos space marines to chaos space marines then it's a mirror not a comparison. Loyalist and chaos have roughly 50% of the same units that after CA should have the same point costs for them. When one team has better passives that apply to everything, mono army buffs, then another chapter passive from the mono army buff when the units and costs are the same it's definately not balanced. The measly "ignore cover save" is not turning the tide and winning games against space marines.

 

And please stop asking people to stop comparing chaos to new marines in a thread titled "Chaos Vs. New Marines"...

[WarriorFish]

I think we need to sit tight and wait for confirmation on the changes from CA2019, then we will have the new baseline to go from - as the release is upcoming we don't have long to wait at least :) CA won't change any fundamental issues, but from the sounds of the leaks the point changes are looking to be a decent enough patch to help as far as could be expected. My hope is that CSM (and Daemons) get their new books soon, but we'll be looking at next year at the earliest as GW ramps up the Christmas juggernaut...

[Guzzlrr]

I think this price reduction will do alot here. Yeah it isn't a real fix but my Lord some of these point decreases are mouth watering double battalions are gonna be so sweet.

I've been running a monster mash which is also getting massive points drops I'm excited to see how this translates in terms of what I can do on the battle field.

 

I understand the negativity I've been playing chaos since the very first dark days on the 4th edition codex literally the day I started playing 40k I've been on this journey too and I understand the frustration but GW has been on point with it's community side this edition and has made significant moves forward to comunicate with fans and even attempt to balance the game regularly. Have faith peeps I really do believe we've got something coming