Chaos vs. New Marines

[Marshal Loss]

Full list of changes:

 

 

Units:

• DP with Wings 155 (-15)

• Dark Apostle 72 (-28)

• Master of Executions 60 (-10)

• Master of Possession 80 (-10)

• Sorcerer 80 (-10)

• Sorcerer in Terminator Armour 100 (-2)

• Sorcerer with Jump Pack 108 (-4)

• Cultists 4 (-1)

• Chaos Space Marines 11 (-2)

• Chosen 12 (-2)

• Fallen 11 (-3)

• Greater Possessed 60 (-10)

• Khorn Berserkers 15 (-1)

• Noise Marines 13 (-2)

• Possessed 17 (-3)

• Terminators 23 (-3)

• Chaos Spawn 20 (-5)

• Warp Talons 9 (-3)

• Noctilith Crown 80 (-20)

• Chaos Land Raider 180 (-20)

• Chaos Predator 85 (-5)

• Forgefiend 80 (-20)

• Maulerfiend 110 (-10)

• Obliterators 95 (-20)

• Venomcrawler 115 (-15)

• Chaos Rhino 65 (-5)

• Khorn Lord of Skulls 315 (-65)

• Plaguebearers 8 (+1)

• Abaddon 210 (-30)

• Fabius Bile 80 (-10)

• Haarken 92 (-23)

Weapons:

• Balaflamer 20 (-10)

• Blastmaster 12 (-8)

• Daemongore cannon 50 (-21)

• Hades gatling cannon 90 (-94)

• Ichor cannon 25 (-33)

• Magma cutter 6 (-10)

• Skullhurler 60 (-38)

• Warpflamer 8 (-2)

• Helbrutefist 20/30 (-10/-10)

• Lightning claws 6/10 (-2/-2)

• Power scourge 25 (-10)

• Thunder hammer (character) 40 (+19)

[Brom MKIV]

Ya my list from 2 nights ago gained nearly 300 pts and it was already potent. Hope to play with the new points today to see.. if I can get someone else to use their adjusted pts values too.

 

Edit- wow khorne lord of skulls got stupid cheap. 430 buys a 28w knight that regens has inherent 5++ is packing legion, heretic, daemon, daemon engine keywords, has hateful assault and shoots 12 S8 ap2 d2 plus d6 S7  ap4 d3 damage!

Oh and his attacks increase as he "degrades"..

CK who again?

Edited November 30, 2019 by Brom MKIV

[Lord_Starscream]

Ya my list from 2 nights ago gained nearly 300 pts and it was already potent. Hope to play with the new points today to see.. if I can get someone else to use their adjusted pts values too.

 

Edit- wow khorne lord of skulls got stupid cheap. 430 buys a 28w knight that regens has inherent 5++ is packing legion, heretic, daemon, daemon engine keywords, has hateful assault and shoots 12 S8 ap2 d2 plus d6 S7  ap4 d3 damage!

Oh and his attacks increase as he "degrades"..

CK who again?

 

*The Lord of Skulls is so few points because it doesn't sell at all, to be fair, lol

[Iron_Within]

My Iron Warriors Lord of Skulls idea looks more viable now (Lord of Skulls being able to regenerate a maximum of 13 wounds a turn) in a Daemon Engine horde...

[Kain Mor]

It’s a shame raptors didn’t drop at all, even though they’re only marginally more useful than warp talons and they got a fairly significant drop.

 

I’m also happy that chaos Terminators are *finally* the same price as loyalist. Even though they are still worse, but that’s just how it is these days so at least I don’t pay more anymore.

 

That being said, my list only dropped about 80 pts, I’m not sure that that is really going to help...

[Brom MKIV]

 

Ya my list from 2 nights ago gained nearly 300 pts and it was already potent. Hope to play with the new points today to see.. if I can get someone else to use their adjusted pts values too.

 

Edit- wow khorne lord of skulls got stupid cheap. 430 buys a 28w knight that regens has inherent 5++ is packing legion, heretic, daemon, daemon engine keywords, has hateful assault and shoots 12 S8 ap2 d2 plus d6 S7  ap4 d3 damage!

Oh and his attacks increase as he "degrades"..

CK who again?

 

*The Lord of Skulls is so few points because it doesn't sell at all, to be fair, lol

 

I'd say that might change now. As IW for example it gains access to some pretty potent buffs with less investment than a CK and its strictly better.

I think this thing along with untargetable oblits is gonna be part of some very competitive chaos lists.

 

I've been brewing with IW + WB this morning.. just because I want to see what they can do. 

[Captain Incompetence]

Rejoice brothers in midnight clad! 95 points for a 5-man Warp Talon unit combined with our new stratagems can actually make these majestic creatures useful on the table for locking up those pesky ranged squads and hopefully be able to make back their points.

 

I'm really surprised by the amount of point drops we got in total. I think I'm easily gaining between 100 and 300 points in my current lists now. It's a bit early to judge where CSM will fall in terms of power level, but these point changes combined with the Faith & Fury stratagems has reignited my motivation to continue fighting the Long War.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Captain Incompetence

[Marshal Loss]

Might be time for me to do some Ashen Circle/Warp Talons conversions with the points reduction. With a Master of the Union Warlord nearby, they're getting 4 attacks each on the charge (5 on the champ), re-rolling failed wound rolls. Tasty. If only they had the Possessed keyword.....

Edited November 30, 2019 by Marshal Loss

[Midnight Brotherhood]

I gained 158pts in my 2000pts list. Means I need to go out and buy some more stuff. Heavily considering warp talons now

[Guzzlrr]

It’s a shame raptors didn’t drop at all, even though they’re only marginally more useful than warp talons and they got a fairly significant drop.

 

I’m also happy that chaos Terminators are *finally* the same price as loyalist. Even though they are still worse, but that’s just how it is these days so at least I don’t pay more anymore.

 

That being said, my list only dropped about 80 pts, I’m not sure that that is really going to help...

 not sure thats an accurate statement at all. ours are more diverse and have access (arguably) to better weaponry the only thing they have i want is to take a dude with a SS & TH  

Edited November 30, 2019 by Guzzlrr

[Brom MKIV]

Ya loyalist termies aren't good guys. Only snowflake versions like WS hammernators. NL can take 5 CA/cbplas with undivided icon and use prey on the weak to make them autonomous at avoiding overheat against many/most units and thats only 180 pts.

[WarriorFish]

Some nice changes here, I like seeing a lot of my bread and butter go down. In particular my Termies with lightning claws will be happier! I agree that it's sad not to see Raptors get something too, I'm not sure why they're different

 

Worth pointing out that the point increase for Cultists has been reverted; aside from being good for the unit it shows that GW are prepared to undo changes which bodes well

[Iron_Within]

Basic thoughts on an army. I could get in 3 havocs (2 chain, 1 las), 2 Maulerfiends, 1 discolord, 4 5 man CSM with Lascannons, 2 30 strong Cultists, 3 Obliterators, 2 Sorcerers and 1 Chaos lord into a 2k list. That's gotta somethign right? RIGHT???

[Filkarion]

Ehi, I just got 225 more points and a nice blastmaster discout

[Khornestar]

12 point chosen are quite badass, as well. Other than one or two things it appears like across the board cuts for units.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Heldrake is now 140
Venoms are 115

Maulerfiend is now 122

Forgefiend is now 128

 

Evidently fate is saying: I need more engines. 

 

*fantastic* I wasn't planning on buying a second Disco Lord but if I end up running a spam list of engines I very well  may consider it. Glad the Defiler didn't drop actually because the other engines should be a smidge cheaper. 

 

Loving what I am seeing. 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Between the point drop for the guys and for the blastmasters, my 12 man noise marine units are 40 points cheaper each... enough for 10 cultists. :)

[Khornestar]

This is probably not the first time it's been pointed out, but an Alpha Legion unit can "easily" be -3 to hit, and an Alpha Legion warlord can be -4 to hit.

 

Alpha Legion Legion Trait + Dark Apostle -1 to hit prayer + Nurgle -1 to hit power + -1 to hit Alpha Legion Warlord Trait (for warlord). 

 

Nice until something that ignores penalties shoots at it, but still, pretty slick.

[Brom MKIV]

I was on the verge of running -3 to hit arkos yesterday. Just to have a to concealed positions SM but I couldn't squeeze him. I have been running a clandestine disco though. Super tanky. 

Edited December 1, 2019 by WarriorFish
Do not dodge the swear filter

[Iron Father Ferrum]

This is probably not the first time it's been pointed out, but an Alpha Legion unit can "easily" be -3 to hit, and an Alpha Legion warlord can be -4 to hit.

 

Alpha Legion Legion Trait + Dark Apostle -1 to hit prayer + Nurgle -1 to hit power + -1 to hit Alpha Legion Warlord Trait (for warlord).

 

Nice until something that ignores penalties shoots at it, but still, pretty slick.

You forgot the Shadeblade relic for another -1.

[Hannibal]

How can you say the Iron warriors trait doesn't suck? Compare them to their loyalist counter part Iron fists, regardless if you use tactical or Primaris.

 

Iron warriors get ignore cover saves on infantry, bikers, and helbrutes.

 

Iron Fists get ignore cover saves, bolter hits of 6 count as two hits, -1AP on heavies and grenades, and +1 damage to vehicles with heavies on ALL units.

 

You´re right on all of this.

 

Though...

 

...the Loyalists miss something like Veterans of the Long war.

...the Loyalists miss something like Obliterators for 95 points. Yes, Centurions are good too, but not comparable to a 95 pts Obliterator. A fully buffed Obliterator Squad is able to destroy one Knight Castellan in one turn on averages. Costing you 5 cp.

...the Loyalists miss a shoot twice stratagem that stacks with all other good shooting buffs.

...the Loyalists miss something similar do a Daemon Prince. Yes, they can get a smash captain. But just one overpowered one. We get a pretty good CC guy that flies and is able to cast some of the best spells in the game without the need for some relics.

...our psi is better than loyalist´s one.

 

Since the founding of that threat I have yet to loose a game against loyalist SM. Though it might be due to my opponents are less skilled. Who knows...

[Iron_Within]

Thoughts on the Iron Warrior Obliterators.

Instead of Slaanesh... why not Nurge?

Feculant Gnarlmaw+Dour Duty+WT Bastion makes Obliterators nearly unkillable and 2CP regenerate a lost Obliterator.

100 bolt rifles with -2 AP wouldn't kill a single Obliterator.

With Chapter Master and Lieutenant included to but would kill one (which you'd regenerate next turn).

Oh and they can fight in combat, fall back from combat and still shoot.

[Brom MKIV]

My buddy was just stewing on something like that. I like it!  Might allow you to sandbag cannon fodder at times too. Slog them up. Thats what I've been doing now with my alpha legion oblits. Option to DS midgame if that ever becomes necessary for whatever reason. 

[Scourged]

Don't forget... being Nurgle also unlock Miasma of Pestilence as a viable power to cast on them. To get super cheeky with it... bring a Master of Possession with the Bastion WT, and turn one use Chaos Familiar to swap Smite with Miasma. Then you could have a nice buff caster with the options of Miasma, Cursed Earth (probably not needed, honestly) and Infernal Power. Talk about a 24" zone of area denial. Perhaps a bit overkill, but it's nothing if not amusing. 

[Hannibal]

Thoughts on the Iron Warrior Obliterators.

Instead of Slaanesh... why not Nurge?

Feculant Gnarlmaw+Dour Duty+WT Bastion makes Obliterators nearly unkillable and 2CP regenerate a lost Obliterator.

100 bolt rifles with -2 AP wouldn't kill a single Obliterator.

With Chapter Master and Lieutenant included to but would kill one (which you'd regenerate next turn).

Oh and they can fight in combat, fall back from combat and still shoot.

 

It basically forms the base of some Nurgle Iron Warriors Daeminkin army I was thinking about. The Feculent Gnarlmaw offers protection for all DAEMONs in your army: Lord Discordants, the newly points decreased Venom Crawlers, the Defilers,...

 

Get that Nurgle Battalion Detachment consisting of 2x Poxbringer, 3x Nurglings and recieve some excetionally good board presence as well as synergies with your Iron Warriors Daemons. Poxbringers can cast Miasma, can heal via spells and with their relic can also baby sit the Oblits. Or use a Nurgle Daemon Prince instead, also gaining enhanced protection by the feculent Gnarlmaw. Poxbringers give +1 strenght while Daemon Princes offer rerolls of 1 to hit.

 

You fear that your opponent focus fires your Lord Discordant? Just put a Great Unclean One next to him. It´s one of the best distraction Carnifexes out there. And once the GUO reaches the enemy lines he is no joke. You can speed him up by a Bilepiper, too.

 

Horticulus Slimux can plant new Gnarlmaws, though it´s somewhat expensive.

 

With the new CSM Daemonkin models from Shaowspear (or the actual Start Collecting) you can get different layers of synergies on your DAEMON models.

 

Biggest drawback is the need for a seperate detachment, otherwise Gnarlmaws can not be fielded.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Hannibal