Chaos vs. New Marines

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I know the argument against Chaos Space Marines was that point drops weren't enough to make them better.. fair enough. Their point cost drops combined with all these other point drops though, that seems pretty potent. 

I'm really following what Hannibal had to say. Those drops are enough to make the Summoning Word Bearers list I've been thinking about pretty viable

[Marshal Loss]

Hm. Might need to buy a Feculent Gnarlmaw then, was already using a Poxbringer to turn my Possessed into a freight train so this wouldn't require too much investment on my behalf

[Dallas Drake]

A Daemon battalion can DS a Feculent Gnarlmaw too for 1CP. So you can drop it down where you want and then DS your Oblits right where you want them to get +2 saves & fall back & shoot. It was a good Nurgle tactic before and is certainly even better now.

[Hannibal]

A Daemon battalion can DS a Feculent Gnarlmaw too for 1CP. So you can drop it down where you want and then DS your Oblits right where you want them to get +2 saves & fall back & shoot. It was a good Nurgle tactic before and is certainly even better now.

 

That´s not true.

 

You can only deepstrike units that are part of your list, but it´s hard to fit a Gnarlmaw into any list due to its battlefield role.

 

The only possible way to "deepstrike" one is to use Horticulus Slimux and summon them with his abilities.

[Sonoftherubric21]

I know the argument against Chaos Space Marines was that point drops weren't enough to make them better.. fair enough. Their point cost drops combined with all these other point drops though, that seems pretty potent. 

 

 

I am in the same place. I have some list ideas for many marines that may have some real crunch on the table. 

 

Debating some Rhino Rushes with Raptor drops. Got some foot-slogger lists that may or may not work which I will see after some test work with Abbadon and a great number of chaos marines (15 havocs, 60 some odd base marines, and potentially cultists in front if need be) 

 

Got an Irons list that will have high amounts of firepower (3x havocs, 3x preds as the baseline of the list, debating other parts) 

 

The Noise Marines have ludicrous output potential in EC for a very easy to slot in Patrol detachment (Noises in rhino, with a cheap HQ accompanying or a Sorcerer for cross-buffing) 

 

Although until we get a mono-legion buff of some kind? Expect to see LOTS of 2-3 legion lists for sure. 

[Dallas Drake]

 

 

A Daemon battalion can DS a Feculent Gnarlmaw too for 1CP. So you can drop it down where you want and then DS your Oblits right where you want them to get +2 saves & fall back & shoot. It was a good Nurgle tactic before and is certainly even better now.

That´s not true.

 

You can only deepstrike units that are part of your list, but it´s hard to fit a Gnarlmaw into any list due to its battlefield role.

 

The only possible way to "deepstrike" one is to use Horticulus Slimux and summon them with his abilities.

Sorry I don’t understand your point. It is part of the ‘list’. Can you explain to me why I can’t use denizens of the warp on a Gnarlmaw just like any other unit. It has the Daemon keyword so I don’t see why we can’t DS it, it doesn’t matter that it’s a Chaos Daemons Fortification Detachment.

[Brom MKIV]

I've been using 2-3 legions for pretty much all of 8th and I love it. To me these are all facets of the alpha legion. The tools of war take many forms and I'm not gonna limit myself in the name of anything. 

[Sonoftherubric21]

I've been using 2-3 legions for pretty much all of 8th and I love it. To me these are all facets of the alpha legion. The tools of war take many forms and I'm not gonna limit myself in the name of anything. 

 

This is the reason I am very thankful to play Black Legion right now. 

 

Easy fluff justifications as well given that the sect of the black legion are lead by various members of the 9 legions. I plan on doing the same! 

[Brom MKIV]

 

 

A Daemon battalion can DS a Feculent Gnarlmaw too for 1CP. So you can drop it down where you want and then DS your Oblits right where you want them to get +2 saves & fall back & shoot. It was a good Nurgle tactic before and is certainly even better now.

That´s not true.

 

You can only deepstrike units that are part of your list, but it´s hard to fit a Gnarlmaw into any list due to its battlefield role.

 

The only possible way to "deepstrike" one is to use Horticulus Slimux and summon them with his abilities.

Sorry I don’t understand your point. It is part of the ‘list’. Can you explain to me why I can’t use denizens of the warp on a Gnarlmaw just like any other unit. It has the Daemon keyword so I don’t see why we can’t DS it, it doesn’t matter that it’s a Chaos Daemons Fortification Detachment.

 

I haven't come across anything preventing this and it was legal awhile back with nothing in the faq on it. The main issue is opportunity cost.. 1 whole detachment 85 pts and a cp. Potent effects though so if your not using that 3rd detachment then a couple trees could find their way into a list built around them. 

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I've been using 2-3 legions for pretty much all of 8th and I love it. To me these are all facets of the alpha legion. The tools of war take many forms and I'm not gonna limit myself in the name of anything. 

 

Brom do you mean you used them as elite choices or did you have multiple detachments?

[Brom MKIV]

That's 2-3 detachments brother. Almost always alpha legion except when I'm feeling saucy then I roll world eaters.

 

The rest varies.. 1ksons, CK, NL, EC typically. I don't do nurgle or WB. Just a personal preference. I don't see these fitting with my alpha legion.

 

1ksons was more a concession honestly. I couldn't get the playstyle I wanted until now so I dipped into that legion for greater freedom of repositioning and other shenanigans. It's about the style I enjoy playing and I'll chase that each new edition.

[Special Officer Doofy]

That's 2-3 detachments brother. Almost always alpha legion except when I'm feeling saucy then I roll world eaters.

 

The rest varies.. 1ksons, CK, NL, EC typically. I don't do nurgle or WB. Just a personal preference. I don't see these fitting with my alpha legion.

Just because a chaos space marine puts on a lot of weight, has fun smells coming off of him and his warts are starting to grow their own warts makes him not good enough for your alpha legion?!? Psshhhh. Nurgle didn't want to hangout with you anyways.

[Brom MKIV]

Lolz! I could swear I've heard that before. Must be the hearing loss..

[techsoldaten]

Writing with another NuMarines battle report.

 

Over the weekend, I played a game against Imperial Fists with a Thousand Sons army. I'm a little burned out on Daemon Primarchs right now and decided it was time for something new. This game was interesting, I learned a little about fighting mechanized Space Marines.

 

I've played this guy before, last time he took massed PEQ so I was expecting him to turtle and beat me down with large squads. Instead, he brought a lot of Dreadnoughts and Tanks - which were problems. I didn't have any anti-armor guns, it would have to be all psychic and cc. On the other hand, my army was very unorthodox, focused on lots of Sorcerers to dominate the psychic phase. I wanted to see how far I could get with smite and other powers. I took mostly characters in this army, to force him into bad shooting situations.

 

My list was 2 Supreme Command Detachments plus a Battalion including Magnus, Ahriman, 3 Exalted Sorcerers on Disks, 3 Sorcerers on Disks, 2 Sorcerers in Terminator Armor, an Exalted Sorcerer, and 2 10x Tzaangors and 1 15x Tzanngors.

 

His list was 2 Batallions and included a Primaris Psyker, a Primaris Chapter Master, a Primaris Chaplain, a Primaris Lieutenant, 4 5x Intercessors, 2 5x Infiltrators, 3 Contemptors, 2 Repulsors and a Redemptor.

 

In his deployment, he did a couple things to make it hard for Magnus to work. He infiltrated with the Infiltrators right in the path Magnus would have to take to get to his army. He bunched his Dreads up right past them, with the Repulsors behind. The Intercessors were spread out with his HQ units to move up and capture objectives. This was good for me, in that the Dreads would not have reroll auras. This was bad for me, in that TS don't do well against armor and there was a lot of it.

 

I won first turn and moved everything up the board. Magnus, Ahriman, and the 6 Sorcerers on Disk were pushing up against the Infiltrators right away. The Tzaangors and foot Sorcerers made their way towards objectives. The psychic phase went well - I had Gaze of Fate on the Sorcerer in the backfield, he cast that so I'd have a reroll. The Sorcerers were able to cast enough smites to clear out the Infiltrators and were able to buff Magnus with Diabolic Strength / Prescience / Weaver of Fates / Glamour of Tzeentch. Then Magnus did Warptime on himself, Smite on the nearest Contemptor, and Infernal Gateway on all the Dreads. He multi-charged 2 of the Contemptors, destroying one and taking one down to a couple wounds.

 

When my opponent started his movement phase, he realized the Contemptor in cc with Magnus could not fall back. He made a mistake moving up his Repulsors, there wasn't enough room to move out of 1" of Magnus' base. This meant not only he couldn't shoot Magnus, it also meant he was targeting characters behind. Each Repulsor killed an Exalted Sorcerer, the Redeemer whiffed, and the Interceptors were out of range of everything else.

 

In the charge phase, he came in with the remaining Contemptor and the Redemptor. They put about 8 wounds on Magnus, he made a ton of saves, and he responded by killing both Contemptors. At this point, he was still fighting the Redemptor but both Repulsors were in charge range - a good psychic phase would clear the way.

 

In my next turn, I moved the Tzaangor units onto objectives in the backfield and brought Ahriman + the remaining Disk Sorcerers up towards Magnus. I dropped the Terminator Sorcerers near the Intercessors to engage along the big Tzaangor unit. In the Psychic phase, I cast Gaze of Fate again, then went to town with Smites and buffs. The Redeemer went down, Magnus was fully buffed again, and he was able to put Infernal Gateway and Doombolt on the Repulsors. The Terminator Sorcerers smote one Intercessor Squad down to a single model.

 

In the charge phase, Magnus multicharged both Repulsors, taking a few wounds from overwatch, alongside Ahriman and a couple Sorcerers. In combat, Magnus destroyed one tank by himself, Ahriman and the Sorcerers managed to do a couple wounds. The Tzaangor failed a 10" charge on one of the Intercessor squads.

 

At this point, he lost all his Dreads and was down to a tank, 4 HQs, and 15 Intercessors. He fell back with the Repulsor and moved up with the rest of his guys. The Intercessors on the right side of the board were able to kill 10 Tzaangor, the 5x man squad on the other side was able to kill maybe 3. The Repulsor had Doombolt and could only move half distance, which meant maybe 5 inches. I was under the impression Repulsors could shoot when they fell back, but I guess that's an Ultramarines thing because he said that can't happen.

 

At that point, he gave up. He knew Magnus was going to eat the Repulsor next turn and the rest of his army was split across the board.

 

I know this isn't going to translate into every game against PEQ. but there were a few lessons learned.

 

1) First, he knew what I was going to do before the game began because Magnus. That was actually to my advantage, it meant his toughest units were all lined up on an optimal path. Sometimes you get this sense NuMarine players feel invincible, like they can just adjust as long as the models are on the table. Watch for people who do this, it means they are going to make poor decisions.

 

2) NuMarines are really susceptible to Character Spam. He just didn't have a good answer for all those Sorcerers on disks, it was just delete one and move to the next. This lead to him wasting a lot of shots that would otherwise be spread across my army.

 

3) Deep Strike Sorcerers are underrated, there's a lot of value in plopping in to smite things you don't like. Against NuMarines, they have so many advantages in terms of range and Stratagems, anything you can do to just hit them with MWs is a good thing.

 

4) Neither of us really used any Stratagems in the game. This might be a first for me.

[Dallas Drake]

 

 

 

 

A Daemon battalion can DS a Feculent Gnarlmaw too for 1CP. So you can drop it down where you want and then DS your Oblits right where you want them to get +2 saves & fall back & shoot. It was a good Nurgle tactic before and is certainly even better now.

That´s not true.

 

You can only deepstrike units that are part of your list, but it´s hard to fit a Gnarlmaw into any list due to its battlefield role.

 

The only possible way to "deepstrike" one is to use Horticulus Slimux and summon them with his abilities.

Sorry I don’t understand your point. It is part of the ‘list’. Can you explain to me why I can’t use denizens of the warp on a Gnarlmaw just like any other unit. It has the Daemon keyword so I don’t see why we can’t DS it, it doesn’t matter that it’s a Chaos Daemons Fortification Detachment.

I haven't come across anything preventing this and it was legal awhile back with nothing in the faq on it. The main issue is opportunity cost.. 1 whole detachment 85 pts and a cp. Potent effects though so if your not using that 3rd detachment then a couple trees could find their way into a list built around them.

Exactly. There’s nothing saying this can’t be done and it’s popped up plenty of times in other threads. I agree. It is an investment, one that has to be weighed up tbh & kinda makes one move more towards daemons. But I’m looking at an Iron Warriors detachment of 2x3 Oblits 2x Leviathans and a Warpsmith. A Gnarlmaw makes more sense if I’m dropping in 6 Oblits. Rest of the list will be Nurgle battalion of Poxbringers and Nurglings to screen/infiltrate. Leaves me about 400 points for something, probably squeeze in 3xPBCs to the Nurgle detachment since they don’t lose out much being Nurgle instead of DG & 3x T8 DR tanks is something to chew through to get at the Oblits.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

@techsoldaten, for future reference: Repulsors have FLY and units with FLY can Fall Back and shoot normally.

[Brom MKIV]

Sounds like his opponents mistake not techs since he did ask. I agree on the character spam although I don't take it to that level haha.  

 

 

 

Exactly. There’s nothing saying this can’t be done and it’s popped up plenty of times in other threads. I agree. It is an investment, one that has to be weighed up tbh & kinda makes one move more towards daemons. But I’m looking at an Iron Warriors detachment of 2x3 Oblits 2x Leviathans and a Warpsmith. A Gnarlmaw makes more sense if I’m dropping in 6 Oblits. Rest of the list will be Nurgle battalion of Poxbringers and Nurglings to screen/infiltrate. Leaves me about 400 points for something, probably squeeze in 3xPBCs to the Nurgle detachment since they don’t lose out much being Nurgle instead of DG & 3x T8 DR tanks is something to chew through to get at the Oblits.

 

I like the sound of this. I'm not sure the second unit of oblits is where you wanna be though just because most resources would be spent on the first as far as strats, cannon fodder, grandfathers blessing, miasma etc. What about 2x1 assassin oblits?

[Dallas Drake]

Sounds like his opponents mistake not techs since he did ask. I agree on the character spam although I don't take it to that level haha.

 

 

 

Exactly. There’s nothing saying this can’t be done and it’s popped up plenty of times in other threads. I agree. It is an investment, one that has to be weighed up tbh & kinda makes one move more towards daemons. But I’m looking at an Iron Warriors detachment of 2x3 Oblits 2x Leviathans and a Warpsmith. A Gnarlmaw makes more sense if I’m dropping in 6 Oblits. Rest of the list will be Nurgle battalion of Poxbringers and Nurglings to screen/infiltrate. Leaves me about 400 points for something, probably squeeze in 3xPBCs to the Nurgle detachment since they don’t lose out much being Nurgle instead of DG & 3x T8 DR tanks is something to chew through to get at the Oblits.

 

I like the sound of this. I'm not sure the second unit of oblits is where you wanna be though just because most resources would be spent on the first as far as strats, cannon fodder, grandfathers blessing, miasma etc. What about 2x1 assassin oblits?

Yeah good point. Although the second unit could be run as Slaanesh for shoot twice. 3 Nurgle under a tree & 3 Slaanesh would really give your opponent a tough choice. Especially if you have plenty of other threats.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Writing with another NuMarines battle report.

 

 

3) Deep Strike Sorcerers are underrated, there's a lot of value in plopping in to smite things you don't like. Against NuMarines, they have so many advantages in terms of range and Stratagems, anything you can do to just hit them with MWs is a good thing.

 

 

 

And this is why I've started building DG list to have a TDA Sorc drop in with a 10 man unit of Blightlords. Psychic buffs on the Blights and some backfield smite. I haven't used it in a game yet but I think I could get some good mileage out of it. 

[techsoldaten]

@techsoldaten, for future reference: Repulsors have FLY and units with FLY can Fall Back and shoot normally.

 

Thanks for clarifying.

 

Right after he said "that can't happen," he just started packing up his army. The end was abrupt, I guess he was talking about his chances of winning and not the tank.

 

We didn't talk afterward but it was clear he was frustrated by not being able to target the characters. He still stood a decent chance if he could take out the Sorcerers, they were keeping Magnus alive with the -1 to hit and the 3+ invul buffs. Without the Character rule, he would have mowed them down turn 1 and it would have been a different game.

 

 

Writing with another NuMarines battle report.

 

3) Deep Strike Sorcerers are underrated, there's a lot of value in plopping in to smite things you don't like. Against NuMarines, they have so many advantages in terms of range and Stratagems, anything you can do to just hit them with MWs is a good thing.

 

And this is why I've started building DG list to have a TDA Sorc drop in with a 10 man unit of Blightlords. Psychic buffs on the Blights and some backfield smite. I haven't used it in a game yet but I think I could get some good mileage out of it. 

 

I'd keep the Blightlords down to a unit of 6 and bring 3 Terminator Sorcerers instead.

 

Blightlords are a melee unit with poor mobility. That doesn't work well against NuMarines, with Tactical Doctrine they are only going to be getting 4+ saves against Bolt Rifles. Your opponent doesn't have a reason to let them close in.

 

Curious, what powers do you focus on with Death Guard Sorcerers? Obviously there's smite, but the range of most of their other spells is rather short. Wondering what they bring to a fight versus NuMarines.

[MasterDeath]

 

 The Feculent Gnarlmaw offers protection for all DAEMONs in your army: Lord Discordants, the newly points decreased Venom Crawlers, the Defilers,...

 

 

 

Nurgle Daemons, except Vehicles and Monsters.

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

 The Feculent Gnarlmaw offers protection for all DAEMONs in your army: Lord Discordants, the newly points decreased Venom Crawlers, the Defilers,...

 

 

 

Nurgle Daemons, except Vehicles and Monsters.

 

 

So, just give them Nurgle mark, then they would have the right keywords then? Or is mark of nurgle and just Nurgle different things for keywords? 

[Ahzek451]

@tech. I would be curious how this would do against iron hands with an astraeus. Void shield saves and fnp against mortals. And even with buffs up, the accelerator cannon suffers no modifiers against magnus, it could very likely bring him down to near death if not totally killed in one shot.

[Hannibal]

 

 

 

 

A Daemon battalion can DS a Feculent Gnarlmaw too for 1CP. So you can drop it down where you want and then DS your Oblits right where you want them to get +2 saves & fall back & shoot. It was a good Nurgle tactic before and is certainly even better now.

That´s not true.

 

You can only deepstrike units that are part of your list, but it´s hard to fit a Gnarlmaw into any list due to its battlefield role.

 

The only possible way to "deepstrike" one is to use Horticulus Slimux and summon them with his abilities.

Sorry I don’t understand your point. It is part of the ‘list’. Can you explain to me why I can’t use denizens of the warp on a Gnarlmaw just like any other unit. It has the Daemon keyword so I don’t see why we can’t DS it, it doesn’t matter that it’s a Chaos Daemons Fortification Detachment.

I haven't come across anything preventing this and it was legal awhile back with nothing in the faq on it. The main issue is opportunity cost.. 1 whole detachment 85 pts and a cp. Potent effects though so if your not using that 3rd detachment then a couple trees could find their way into a list built around them.

Exactly. There’s nothing saying this can’t be done and it’s popped up plenty of times in other threads. I agree. It is an investment, one that has to be weighed up tbh & kinda makes one move more towards daemons. But I’m looking at an Iron Warriors detachment of 2x3 Oblits 2x Leviathans and a Warpsmith. A Gnarlmaw makes more sense if I’m dropping in 6 Oblits. Rest of the list will be Nurgle battalion of Poxbringers and Nurglings to screen/infiltrate. Leaves me about 400 points for something, probably squeeze in 3xPBCs to the Nurgle detachment since they don’t lose out much being Nurgle instead of DG & 3x T8 DR tanks is something to chew through to get at the Oblits.

 

Ok, to explain my point of view.

 

I said: biggest drawback of Gnarlmaws are the additional detachment required to field them.

 

You answered: Just deepstrike them.

 

I said: you can´t di that without incorporating Gnarlmaws into your list. Which, as I pointed out, is not that easy. As others mentioned: You simply "loose" a detachment by fielding Gnarlmaws. If 2 "real" detachments is enough for you, you´re fine. I think in 2000 pts you´ll loose a lot of potential if you go with just 2 detachments + some Gnarlmaws in their own detachment.

 

So literally you´re right. It IS possible to deepstrike Gnarlmaws, but you still have to pay high opportunity costs to be able to do so.

 

BromMkIV said something about 1 cp as opportunity costs, but it is more. Because you loose a third detachment offering additional cp, you loose more than just 1 cp for deepstriking one Gnarlmaw. At least 2.

[Brom MKIV]

Ah true. That would become apparent once list building was under way. I think the gnarlmaw has a potent ability. Unfortunately ignoring cover is at an all time high in this game and IW have easy access to 30 ablatives which kinda devalues them.

But its all list dependent. If 2 detachments does what he needs for units and cp economy and theres room left then the trees make sense. I like it as an alternate approach or in addition to what will now be a typical strategy fodder screened obliterators.