Chaos vs. New Marines

[Balthamal]

 

 

The other one is a bit more out there into the dirty territory of soup (But done in a way to squeeze into ITC faction restrictions) consisting of a battalion of Slaaneshi Black Legion (of all the actual traitors they have the most versatility imo given the likely impending nerf to Alpha Legion) including 6 bikes a sorcerer on a steed of slaanesh and a prince, a flawless host supreme command with 3 disco lords and as many goodies as possible (Ultimate confidence, Intoxicating Elixar, Field Commander and either flawless cloak or mechatendrites) and a battalion of Slaanesh daemons with 50 daemonettes; 1x30 2x10 a rapturesss a herald on a steed and syll'esske with a few points left to dot here and there as needed. 

 

Having tried this latter list last night the one take away from it is, the speed is breathtaking. The disco lords are quick, souldforged disco lords are very quick and getting the locus benefit from the herald means they're greased lightning even without Warp Time. Depending on deployment map and where things are dropped, they're easily capable of hitting combat turn one and what they hit will die. Playing against Blood Angels yesterday, the 5 Chainglaive attacks exploded into a further 15 (3 for Ultimate Confidence, 1 for DttFE and one for the Slaanesh locus) between that and the rest 2 impulsors died even with their 4++ which kicked off a further 2 D3 mortal wounds for spirit thief. If you can have the prince and Syll'esske keep pace with them to buff hits and wounds you won't go far wrong because this army will be across the board in the blink of an eye and there's enough nastyness in there to mince screening. I may try and trim down the daemonettes to include something harder hitting like a Scorpius. Bit of fine tuning and I think it'll be a decent list. Needs a lot of practicing though, very finesse type. 

 

+++ I'm glad you had success with it. It is a good match up for that kind of list though too. It gives me hope that I could revisit my 3 Disco Lord list and have some success with it. 

 

My personal issue is I like characters too much. The 3 Disco's cost a lot. I really, really like the Venom Crawlers but if I include them I have no points for other potent stuff. I had been using Oblits, and Masters of Possession to keep them buffed and healed. I really needed a Daemon Prince.

 

I usually play as Black Legion and take Abaddon a lot which probably hurts me too much. Abe is fun, but slow, and Flawless Host just seems to be the only way I see Disco's played now.

 

 

I think Abaddon and 3 Slaaneshi Oblits with a Master of Possesion and a Dark Apostle will be a premier shooting unit, but anyone with an ounce of brain activity will simply hide away anything nasty from them. Abaddon definitely has his uses, just a matter of careful consideration getting the best out of him. Big fearless blobs isn't a bad thing but then that needs some seriously huge hitters to take on big nasties on the opposite side of the table. I didn't find 3 discos too bad points wise tbh, certainly not when compared what they bring to the army. The real issue with them is board layout and keeping all 3 arrayed in such a way that their buffs all overlap and they can all make combat if required.

[Prot]

 

 

 

 

+++ I'm glad you had success with it. It is a good match up for that kind of list though too. It gives me hope that I could revisit my 3 Disco Lord list and have some success with it. 

 

My personal issue is I like characters too much. The 3 Disco's cost a lot. I really, really like the Venom Crawlers but if I include them I have no points for other potent stuff. I had been using Oblits, and Masters of Possession to keep them buffed and healed. I really needed a Daemon Prince.

 

I usually play as Black Legion and take Abaddon a lot which probably hurts me too much. Abe is fun, but slow, and Flawless Host just seems to be the only way I see Disco's played now.

 

 

I think Abaddon and 3 Slaaneshi Oblits with a Master of Possesion and a Dark Apostle will be a premier shooting unit, but anyone with an ounce of brain activity will simply hide away anything nasty from them. Abaddon definitely has his uses, just a matter of careful consideration getting the best out of him. Big fearless blobs isn't a bad thing but then that needs some seriously huge hitters to take on big nasties on the opposite side of the table. I didn't find 3 discos too bad points wise tbh, certainly not when compared what they bring to the army. The real issue with them is board layout and keeping all 3 arrayed in such a way that their buffs all overlap and they can all make combat if required.

 

 

Well it does work... as you say with their limited range there's a big risk you take putting them out (in competitive play) or putting them on the field to start. They have a very limited range and a lot of tournament armies are very good at wrecking characters (Not just sniping, but FW Tau dudes, Eldar Flyers, etc).

 

Abaddon works, but maximizing him is VERY hard. If someone let me, then yes, I will confront them in the middle of the board, providing some cultist blobs live, but I'll tell you it can be a boring grind with blobs of fearless cultists. 

 

It's a lot of points too. 

[Aothaine]

I still think that if you're going to play competitive you need to run soups. Chaos does this amazingly well. Between CSM/CKnights/Daemons/TS/DG we have so much we can bring to the table to really throw people off their game. Just like the loyalists do. 

 

Unless I am mistaken you just need the detachments to be mono faction right? So you could have that nice brick of Daemon Plague bearers with hq support and throw in three plague burst crawlers with an hq reroll support then throw in a chaos knight. Seems pretty solid to me. But I don't have all the miniatures to play test games. 

 

I'm still planning on making my Renegade White scars for now and I think I have a pretty solid list. You can see it in the Renegade White Scars link in my signature if you're interested. The second list is what I am working on right now. 27 Chaos Bikers, 1 biker lord, 3 daemon princes, 2 chaos quad lascannon predators. This has not been updated for new point costs however. It may be more or less, hopefully less. Still clearing the board of 27 bikers and two predators should be kind of difficult. Giving me time to deep strike in all three of my princes which absolutely trounce things when they show up.

[Iron_Within]

 

 

Be that as it may, now do we compensate now? I used to try the shooty method when assault failed me but I don’t think that’s the case now. My Daemon Engines list hit some pot holes but I like to think we have some tricks still without going to Daemons.

 

I think we have to work twofold. On one hand we have to render their Dakka useless, ie running lots and lots of T8 with that Alpha Legion trait of -1 to hit. On the other hand, we need weapons with damage 2. That way, as soon as we reach their lines, they will die.

 

There is simply no way to deal with 2 wounds and armor 2+ (Primaris in cover) if you´re relying on damage 1 weapons. You need 36 Bolter shots on average to kill one Primaris in cover.

 

 

 

.

 

 

+++ T8 and harder hitting. I completely agree, but I'll go further and say if it's cheap enough, T5 infantry. I've been playing a ton of games with my Ultramarines and I'll tell you something they are phenomenal about: spamming boat loads of S4 AP-1 to AP -3 weaponry. 

 

+++ I did a Battle Report on my blog of my Ultra's VS. Death Guard. It was absolutely shocking to me how T5 caused me issues. 

 

+++ On the note of T8.... try not to laugh but I've been considering..... 3 Vindicators. (Perhaps with Noctlith Crown and Psyker support. But it might be better with Thousand Sons.... or no Noctlith and a Dark Apostle with the 5+ invuln litany)

 

 

After over 20 years of Chaos my Iron Warriors are finally gathering dust on the shelves. The breaking point has been Codex Space Marines.

 

I don't think polishing a turd is possible. Codex Space Marines has too many tools and too many redundancies and too many *good* things that Chaos Space Marines, without going an incredibly lacklustre, janky lists we just have no chance. With those lists that do have a chance are just not Chaos Space Marines. So no.

 

+++ I hear you. But this turd has been tied around my proverbial neck a long time, and after 3rd it's had a certain smell to it that won't go away. I just really like to think there's something here to make it competitive while waiting for.... dare I suggest.... the Campaign that fixes all? (Ducks the incoming tomatoes)

 

The frustration I have is we talk about 2-3 Lord Disco's with Soul Forged pack and Flawless Host.... well I don't want to play Flawless Host I want to play my Iron Warriors, and they're terrible compared to Space Marines. My favourite match is the IFvsIW grudge match, which was always close and bloody and nasty, which is as it should be, now, even before their codex supplement, it's a curb stomp without severely taking janky stuff to compensate. But the age old adage goes "but I want to play my Chaos Space Marines"... hell they even got new models.. just why GW? Why?!

 

For those continuing to play. Vs Space Marines, shooting game is a loser, they're more adaptable and have more firepower now. In combat some armies are on par with us. So, to beat a fluffy SM army or at least to be on par, your list has to be competitive. So no fluffy Legions, no IW, certainly no Word Bearers. 

 

Go Flawless Host, the ability to get two extra attacks on 6's is great. combo with Sorcerers and Dark Apostles. Soup it, soup the hell out of it cherry picking the best combo's we know. then you might have a chance. 

[Espresso]

It is a strange situation indeed. 

 

I have played against the new SM on three different accounts and all went very bad for me. The sheer weight of firepower that a SM army can produce is staggering and I am kinda worried with the IH hitting the scene soon. 

 

I play a classic BL list with lots of PA, two units of Havocs, one of Obliterators, a meaty core of CSM and Cultists... all things considering I should have the bodies, I should have the resilience to endure the enemy fire, but even with Abaddon leading the assault it was dismal. My units just evaporated...

 

Alas this Sunday I will play Chaos Knights and see if they will fare better against the SM. 

 

I think that at this stage the CSM have few answers to a tuned SM list and while we can tackle them in melee with reasonable success we can in no shape or form compete with the SM flexibility with their new stratagems, traits and artefacts. The problem is that a SM can put so many modifiers on a basic marine for free that even without playing a competitive list, they have numerous advantages over us. 

 

Keep in mind that the SM pay no points for Chapter Traits (of which now they have two sets and not one), Doctrines and Warlord Traits. Those abilities are now updated and more flexible, compared to our ones from almost four years ago.

 

Bodies don't work, shooting neither, melee is a forlorn hope... so our only option is Chaos Soup. 

[Iron_Within]

It is a strange situation indeed. 

 

I have played against the new SM on three different accounts and all went very bad for me. The sheer weight of firepower that a SM army can produce is staggering and I am kinda worried with the IH hitting the scene soon. 

 

I play a classic BL list with lots of PA, two units of Havocs, one of Obliterators, a meaty core of CSM and Cultists... all things considering I should have the bodies, I should have the resilience to endure the enemy fire, but even with Abaddon leading the assault it was dismal. My units just evaporated...

 

Alas this Sunday I will play Chaos Knights and see if they will fare better against the SM. 

 

I think that at this stage the CSM have few answers to a tuned SM list and while we can tackle them in melee with reasonable success we can in no shape or form compete with the SM flexibility with their new stratagems, traits and artefacts. The problem is that a SM can put so many modifiers on a basic marine for free that even without playing a competitive list, they have numerous advantages over us. 

 

Keep in mind that the SM pay no points for Chapter Traits (of which now they have two sets and not one), Doctrines and Warlord Traits. Those abilities are now updated and more flexible, compared to our ones from almost four years ago.

 

Bodies don't work, shooting neither, melee is a forlorn hope... so our only option is Chaos Soup. 

GW have hit a magic balance with Codex Space Marines by making them feel like Marines. Chaos Space Marines just are not the same by comparison.

[Aothaine]

 

GW have hit a magic balance with Codex Space Marines by making them feel like Marines. Chaos Space Marines just are not the same by comparison.

 

Yet. They have said that last codex was just an update. Give them some time and we'll have an amazing codex with supplements as well. World Eaters supplement coming up!

[Khornestar]

 

It is a strange situation indeed. 

 

I have played against the new SM on three different accounts and all went very bad for me. The sheer weight of firepower that a SM army can produce is staggering and I am kinda worried with the IH hitting the scene soon. 

 

I play a classic BL list with lots of PA, two units of Havocs, one of Obliterators, a meaty core of CSM and Cultists... all things considering I should have the bodies, I should have the resilience to endure the enemy fire, but even with Abaddon leading the assault it was dismal. My units just evaporated...

 

Alas this Sunday I will play Chaos Knights and see if they will fare better against the SM. 

 

I think that at this stage the CSM have few answers to a tuned SM list and while we can tackle them in melee with reasonable success we can in no shape or form compete with the SM flexibility with their new stratagems, traits and artefacts. The problem is that a SM can put so many modifiers on a basic marine for free that even without playing a competitive list, they have numerous advantages over us. 

 

Keep in mind that the SM pay no points for Chapter Traits (of which now they have two sets and not one), Doctrines and Warlord Traits. Those abilities are now updated and more flexible, compared to our ones from almost four years ago.

 

Bodies don't work, shooting neither, melee is a forlorn hope... so our only option is Chaos Soup. 

GW have hit a magic balance with Codex Space Marines by making them feel like Marines. Chaos Space Marines just are not the same by comparison.

 

 

 

Yeah, this is exactly it. We'll see what happens in the future, but the pessimistic tendency within me can't help but feel like 6th/7th edition again. I just started an IH primaris army, kinda shelving chaos until our codex gets revisted or they actually release Codex: World Eaters. Not that the game isn't fun, but just really stale for me with CSM.

[Espresso]

I have to admit that my opponent did not play a "tuned" list, but still it had two units of Agressors, Stalker Intercessors and a wealth of characters to support them. When he fielded Marneus, it was over by turn three. Against the IH pre Supplement I managed to resist four turns, against Papa Smurf and his boys it was over in three turns. 

 

I have noticed that whilst we can play objectives since we usually have more bodies than the loyalists, we cannot hold them for long. Once the Tactical Doctrine kicks in, it is bad news.

[Iron_Within]

Yet. They have said that last codex was just an update. Give them some time and we'll have an amazing codex with supplements as well. World Eaters supplement coming up!

 

I am dearly looking forward to eating crow and climbing down from my high horse when this happens as it means I get to play with my toys again.

[techsoldaten]

I have a real problem with NuMarines.

 

 

Yet. They have said that last codex was just an update. Give them some time and we'll have an amazing codex with supplements as well. World Eaters supplement coming up!

 

I am dearly looking forward to eating crow and climbing down from my high horse when this happens as it means I get to play with my toys again.

 

 

I have a real problem with NuMarines, several characteristics mess with game mechanics in a way that bothers me.

 

Space Marine players can build an army entirely made of units that can shoot at a range of 30" or greater. Bolt Rifles, Ironhail Heavy Stubbers, Bolt Sniper Rifles, Stalker Bolter Rifles all do this (along with heavy weapons.)

 

Omni-Scramblers make it so that deep striking units cannot arrive within charge range. While there's only 2 units that can use them (currently), it invalidates a tactic used by most other armies. Combined with the Tactical doctrine, you have a lot of shooting that forces power armor opponents to save at a 5+ (and non-power armor to have no save.)

 

Those are pretty big advantages.

 

Chaos armies do best at mid-range, we rely on delivering powerful melee units into battle. If you stop and think about it, NuMarines no longer have an incentive to close in, they can hang back and fire at range. For mid-range armies, that translates into facing an extra turn of small-arms shooting before being able to charge. With AP modifiers due to doctrines, one extra round of shooting is deadly.

 

Being able push deep strikers out of charge range is significant. It means Space Marines have a strong counter to Bloodletter Bombs, one of our most powerful tactics. Think about the problems in 6th and 7th edition where Daemon Princes needed to land and wait a turn before charging, because that's happening again (relative to a couple units.) 3 units of Infiltrators on the front lines can cover a space of 39 inches to shut down deep strike along an entire flank.

 

My concerns aren't theoretical, I've gotten in about 6 games versus NuMarines. Each time, my opponent exploited the new rules in a way that was almost impossible to overcome. The worst was when one guy brought Triple Repulsors and wiped out most of my forces in turns 1 and 2 - just with the tanks with 40 shots each. One Ultramarine player brought 6 Intercessor squads and walked them backwards to gun down 3 Maulerfiends that never got into battle. One player gunned down Abaddon, a Chainlord and a Daemon Prince second turn with snipers, eliminating all of my auras and leaving me to fight with vanilla troops.

 

Everything about these games felt unfamiliar, like I was on the wrong foot from the start. It wasn't the armies themselves so much as the soft-counters to blunt the force of assaults coupled with the effectiveness of their counter-attacks. So much was being lost each turn that it seemed futile fighting an opponent with so much more tactical depth.

 

Not sure if there's an easy way to compensate without breaking universal mechanics. Like, the natural solution to greater ranged shooting would be to increase movement / charge range. Maybe that works for CSMs, but how does that work against Nids, Orks and Eldar. Suddenly they are at a serious disadvantage and need adjustments that affect performance against each other faction. It could become very chaotic until GW arrives at some happy medium that suits all armies.

 

Dunno where they're headed. 40k should not be static and change is usually for the better. But GW may have arrived at a sea-change with NuMarines. Most of my games are friendlies in a very competitive meta where both sides min/max with knowledge of the opponent beforehand. While I'm sure I could build an army that does better against NuMarines, I don't think it will do as well against other factions.

 

And that's what bothers me. TAAC lists are important in a game with expensive models, faction-specific variations of lists are unaffordable for most people and not compatible with organized play. If we're really going in a direction where factions can optimize around tactical choices that mitigate / invalidate the advantages of other armies, we will see the end of TAAC lists entirely. To me, NuMarines look like a major step in that direction and one GW can't take back, even with a new edition. Not sure I want to learn what NuCSM would look like in response.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Everything about these games felt unfamiliar, like I was on the wrong foot from the start. It wasn't the armies themselves so much as the soft-counters to blunt the force of assaults coupled with the effectiveness of their counter-attacks. So much was being lost each turn that it seemed futile fighting an opponent with so much more tactical depth.

 

 

 

I agree with it feeling unfamiliar and kind of wrong-footing us, but Space Marines are supposed to have this tactical depth per fluff and have been lacking it since 5th edition or so. 

 

Based on what the playtesters I've listened to have been saying, SM is the first true codex that benefits from the experience of watching 8th edition unfold and is intended to take the game in a new direction. "Sea change" is the right phrase.

 

I hope that they put as much consideration and craft into the next Codex and keep it going, but they need to put in some stopgaps and/or speed the release schedule if they want to keep this new design philosophy from hurting game balance for too long.

 

As for CSM's specifically, I think a durability increase might be in order. Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, and SM can all exploit our units' relative fragility, so that increase might bring greater balance against all of them evenly.

 

EDIT: Also, Reece from FLG sait that in playtesting, SM vs SM games were routinely over by Turn 2 because neither side could withstand the other's offensive firepower for long. Because of stratagems, etc, Alpha Strikes didn't necessarily decide games, but both sides were doing so much constant damage in all phases (including Overwatch, etc) that both armies just melted.

[Kain Mor]

1-2 turn games is why I am so deeply frustrated with this new codex. Even if GW somehow manages to make *all* factions balanced with numarines, the issue GreaterChicken brought up in his edit will be a thing, and I hate that. Driving half an hour to a FLGS or GW, meeting someone new, spending 30-40 minutes setting up, talking and deploying to then play a 30 minute game isn’t fun. It’s incredibly frustrating to lose in the first or second turn, and honestly it isn’t even satisfying to win that fast either.

 

I want games that regularly go to T4-5, where you have to start making tactical choices and really test yourself against the opponent’s skills.

[Special Officer Doofy]

With how stacked the new marines are compared to chaos space marines and by some of the play testing I've watched, I'm sure it's only a matter of time before chaos space marines get a 'similar' treatment. Similar as in better legion traits that are army wide, possible doctrine like shenanigans (or maybe something different that promotes mono gods or unaligned or something) and hopefully a redo or new character for each Legion (some Legions are fine some need one). That's just new codex/supplements and a couple single models, everything else is just rule changes which don't cost GW anything. But considering a replacement codex more recently came out for chaos, it's probably further out than what most chaos players want. Not to mention they might tend to Xenos factions first.

 

I'm going to relate this question back to chaos vs new marines, but do you guys think DA, BA and SW are going to get simalar love to the new supplements? I only ask because I wouldn't want thousand sons or death guard left out if they did redo some chaos space marine stuff.

 

Trying to stay positive and hope chaos gets some love but even if we do it's not on the horizon I bet. Guess I should just stick to the modeling and painting aspects of the hobby until they balance the game out. I'll admit space marines were a little under whelming pre new codex but they cranked them to a solid 10/10 now. Iron hands now make Death Guard look more like Imperial Guard...

[techsoldaten]

Trying to stay positive and hope chaos gets some love but even if we do it's not on the horizon I bet. Guess I should just stick to the modeling and painting aspects of the hobby until they balance the game out. I'll admit space marines were a little under whelming pre new codex but they cranked them to a solid 10/10 now. Iron hands now make Death Guard look more like Imperial Guard...

 

I'm skeptical about a new Codex.

 

GW could certainly publish new rules but something about NuMarines is fundamentally wrong.

 

A practical example. Let's say 2 units are separated by 36 inches of space and there's 12 inches of space behind each side.

 

- SM are capable of 30" range shooting average across the army. CSM max move + advance is 12".

 

- In the first player turn, the SM moves forward 6" and shoots. The CSM player moves and advances 6", the total distance is 18" - outside charge range.

 

- In the second player turn, the SM player moves back 6" and shoots. The CSM player moves and advances 6", the total distance is 12" - just outside charge range.

 

- In the third player turn, the SM player moves back 6" and shoots. The CSM player moves and advances 6". Maybe he's in charge range if he really advanced 6 inches each of the previous turns (and if he has the right legion trait allowing an advance and charge.)

 

- Add to this the Space Marine player might be using the Tactical doctrine, getting negative AP for a couple turns. The CSM player is taking a lot of wounds while all this happens.

 

- The game is 5 turns, 2 more if you're lucky. The CSM player has 2 turns to get something done with that wounded unit or is doomed.

 

Something about the 24" range for standard rifles made the game "fair" on a 6' x 4' table. Now you have units with power armor, more wounds, rapid fire weapons, increased AP, and longer shooting range than their average opponent. This lets them create conditions where they get 3 rounds of shooting before a charge can occur.

 

I don't see good ways to address this. Under optimal play, a Space Marine player now has a way to guarantee 3 turns of shooting against most pure melee units. GW isn't going to buff a statline that suddenly reduces the impact of that mechanic, a lot of other things have to change about the game to account for it.

 

EDIT: points matter too. Let's pretend for a minute that Berzerkers cost 50% of the cost of Intercessors with Bolt Rifles. You have 20 Berzerkers moving up on 10 Intercessors and the Space Marine player gets 3 turns of shooting. Without going into the Mathhammer, the Berzerkers are going to lose that fight more than 60% of the time - and that's with fighting twice.

 

Of course, each model actually costs roughly the same, meaning there's a points efficiency issue on top of the kiting tactic. It just gets worse the more you think about it.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Trying to stay positive and hope chaos gets some love but even if we do it's not on the horizon I bet. Guess I should just stick to the modeling and painting aspects of the hobby until they balance the game out. I'll admit space marines were a little under whelming pre new codex but they cranked them to a solid 10/10 now. Iron hands now make Death Guard look more like Imperial Guard...

 

I'm skeptical about a new Codex.

 

GW could certainly publish new rules but something about NuMarines is fundamentally wrong.

 

A practical example. Let's say 2 units are separated by 36 inches of space and there's 12 inches of space behind each side.

 

- SM are capable of 30" range shooting average across the army. CSM max move + advance is 12".

 

- In the first player turn, the SM moves forward 6" and shoots. The CSM player moves and advances 6", the total distance is 18" - outside charge range.

 

- In the second player turn, the SM player moves back 6" and shoots. The CSM player moves and advances 6", the total distance is 12" - just outside charge range.

 

- In the third player turn, the SM player moves back 6" and shoots. The CSM player moves and advances 6". Maybe he's in charge range if he really advanced 6 inches each of the previous turns (and if he has the right legion trait allowing an advance and charge.)

 

- Add to this the Space Marine player might be using the Tactical doctrine, getting negative AP for a couple turns. The CSM player is taking a lot of wounds while all this happens.

 

- The game is 5 turns, 2 more if you're lucky. The CSM player has 2 turns to get something done with that wounded unit or is doomed.

 

Something about the 24" range for standard rifles made the game "fair" on a 6' x 4' table. Now you have units with power armor, more wounds, rapid fire weapons, increased AP, and longer shooting range than their average opponent. This lets them create conditions where they get 3 rounds of shooting before a charge can occur.

 

I don't see good ways to address this. Under optimal play, a Space Marine player now has a way to guarantee 3 turns of shooting against most pure melee units. GW isn't going to buff a statline that suddenly reduces the impact of that mechanic, a lot of other things have to change about the game to account for it.

 

If they didn't have such devastating screening and the ability to easily kill transports, it wouldn't be as big a deal, but they do, so it is....though I wonder about a full mech army with tanks/walkers to draw fire and troops double-stacked in transports, plus Apostle/Sorcerer support. Nothing stopping an Apostle from mounting up after doing his Prayer.

 

As for the other poster's comment about 2 turn games, I actually like them because I like playing 2K, but have a busy schedule and I love seeing the crazy carnage that this game is capable of (and the stories that come out of it). However, I don't have to drive very far for my games.

[Zodd1888]

There are a whole lot of words coming out of this discussion so I'll be short and sweet:

 

- New Space Marines have double the options in models, strategems, powers, etc.

- Iron Hands are better plague marines with better vehicles

- Raven Guard are the answer to all of our characters

- CSM only hold superiority on Assault.

 

Based on the above, we need to push for the assault because we'll lose the shooting/objective game because of offensive/defensive advantages granted from new marines options.

 

Hate to be the bitter potato, but I don't think we'll ever catch-up to Space Marines.

 

We're broken down in such a way that our variety is compartmentalized, where marines unique models are typically only characters or a dreadnought. Any marines that are in the same boat as us in that regard are also left behind, ie. Grey Knights/Dark Angels/Space Wolves.

 

That said, psychic powers can help, at the end of the day the general typically is what matters. It's when the general doesn't matter we know there is a problem.

[Painjunky]

Yep, unless you're into soup all we have is assault and numarines have the insane firepower and tactical flexibility to shut down and kill assault easily.

 

When we get a new codex in a year or 2 at the earliest i doubt it will change anything.

The whole mechanics of the assault V shooting game will need to change.

 

Currently a CSM should be 8pts.

[Khornestar]

There's just no consistent design philosophy across this edition, and unless they release every book at the same time taking that into account (which they 100% never will), the game will always be this way. It's frustrating, but I also don't mind trying out a new army/armies at this point.

[MegaVolt87]

There's just no consistent design philosophy across this edition, and unless they release every book at the same time taking that into account (which they 100% never will), the game will always be this way. It's frustrating, but I also don't mind trying out a new army/armies at this point.

 

Yeah the game would be stronger for it if everything was released at once, smaller supplements/expansions that can more easily be fixed as the core would be largely solid. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

There's just no consistent design philosophy across this edition, and unless they release every book at the same time taking that into account (which they 100% never will), the game will always be this way. It's frustrating, but I also don't mind trying out a new army/armies at this point.

The Indexes were all written at the same time, as were all of the first run of codexes, though they went back and made radical changes before release to many of them as the meta shifted. I remember seeing something about the late Geoff Robinson being shocked at what was actually in the Custodes final book, compared to what he got to playtest. This is one of the reasons that the playtesters don't have the greatest record for predicting stuff.

[Espresso]

I have found that the problem with CSM vs SM is that when we connect with them in close combat, our units are so depleted that they struggle to kill something. Even on tables with lots of terrain it is hard to close, since the average marine player has either Infiltrators, Eliminators or other tricks to force us to move more and therefore be shot up more. 

 

I had some moderate success with shooty deep strikers like terminators and obliterators, but it is only in the turn when they arrive, after that they are dust. 

[techsoldaten]

There's just no consistent design philosophy across this edition...

 

We'll see. Until there's another Codex, we won't really know if GW has adopted some new direction or if they just wanted to make Space Marines OP for a while.

 

I suspect the final Sisters Codex will clarify.

 

In my earlier post, I talked about how the range of Space Marine guns skews the game towards a certain outcome. GW gave them a mechanic that affects the fundamental mechanics of the game in a way that can be used predictably and to overwhelming affect against most armies.

 

When you dig deeper into Chapter Tactics, Doctrines, and specific unit abilities, it becomes clear other mechanics are also affected. -2 AP for Bolt Rifles is a big one, the best power armor save against that is now 5+ (and GEQ is DOA.) Basically, pick the right units and the save mechanic no longer applies to anything without power armor or an invulnerable.

 

Let's call these a 'skew.' There are a lot of other things that could be skewed for each faction.

 

- Unit Type

- Psychic

- Summoning

- Charges

- To Wound Chart

- Movement / Advance

- Morale

- etc...

 

If this does represent a new design philosophy, color me concerned. On the one hand, there will be tiers, and people will be picking the faction with the best rules. On the other hand, how do you build a TAAC list when every faction has abilities that fundamentally affect game mechanics?

 

Dunno the answer. This is the most uncertain I've ever been about the future of 40k. The new Codex has reduced every other faction to a shooting gallery for the Emperor. I don't see an easy solution.

[Prot]

I still play both sides and while I agree with a lot that's being said, I think there are some key things I personally disagree with.

 

Iron Hands aside (I think they are easily superior to most other choices we've seen), the marines are still just marines. They die to bad power armour match ups nearly as easily as before. I've experienced this first hand.

 

Overall marines are absolutely fantastic at annihilating baseline infantry. But survivable, high T armies really slow the whole 'machine' down a lot.

- I play against a super strong, highly competitive GSC army and since the new codex came out, I have all the tools that have allowed me to push back on it really hard. This just wasn't plausible before. There just wasn't the 'time'. but with immense output at S4 AP-1-2, I can clear droves of these guys out while pushing them back.

 

- I've played armies that have given me shockingly difficult times with casualties. T5 Death Guard really shocked me. T5, 3+, FNP just really slows thing down. Their Blightlord Termies for example required a ridiculous amount of firepower to shift.

 

- example game 3 is an old nemesis. Tau. That's why I say marines still die like marines (unless IH). This is still a strong counter. Sure you can chew through marker lights and perhaps drones but the highly competitive armies feature survivable units that tear marines apart.

 

That's a microcosm of how my games have been going. If you bring Poxwalkers, loads of cultists, tons of plaguebearers.... they're going to get vaped now. 

 

Where I think Chaos is in a tough spot is it's still largely a shooty edition, and playing gunline exchanges with NuMarines is going to be really difficult, yet the assault just doesn't really work at a high level of play. (I've certainly tried!)

 

Yet I'm used to relying on units like Havocs, and even Termies, and to a lesser degree Oblits. Now I'm not so sure anymore, however the assault units feel largely.. gimmicky. The Possessed stuff is very fun, but it's always been over blown. It takes a TON of resources to get rolling but it falls apart very fast. Daemon Engines are 'fun' as well, but too dated to bring relevance to competitive match ups. 

 

I'm still stumped. I'm thinking of just going to the Chaos Knights with Black Legion for now. I have a LOT invested in Chaos but it can be very frustrating. 

[Khornestar]

Red Corsairs for CP, seems like a start. From there, not sure. Still learning what our knights can do, but I'm told daemon princes and lords discordant are some of our better units to be using.