Chaos vs. New Marines

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

 

 

Writing with another NuMarines battle report.

 

3) Deep Strike Sorcerers are underrated, there's a lot of value in plopping in to smite things you don't like. Against NuMarines, they have so many advantages in terms of range and Stratagems, anything you can do to just hit them with MWs is a good thing.

 

And this is why I've started building DG list to have a TDA Sorc drop in with a 10 man unit of Blightlords. Psychic buffs on the Blights and some backfield smite. I haven't used it in a game yet but I think I could get some good mileage out of it. 

 

I'd keep the Blightlords down to a unit of 6 and bring 3 Terminator Sorcerers instead.

 

Blightlords are a melee unit with poor mobility. That doesn't work well against NuMarines, with Tactical Doctrine they are only going to be getting 4+ saves against Bolt Rifles. Your opponent doesn't have a reason to let them close in.

 

Curious, what powers do you focus on with Death Guard Sorcerers? Obviously there's smite, but the range of most of their other spells is rather short. Wondering what they bring to a fight versus NuMarines.

 

 

I disagree with you there. Blightlords are an excellent CC unit but I don't think their shooting should be taken for granted. 2 blightlaunchers is definitely some capable hurt'n to put on whoever may be receiving it and it's still a decent amount of bolter shots. A 10 man strong unit is also fairly tanky. Cloud of flies can be placed on them preventing those NuMarines from engaging the blightlords at all.

 

The shortest ranged power of the contagion discipline is 14" which is plenty close for a deepstriking unit who'll be at a minimum 9" away from the enemy. The rest of the powers are in the 18" range. Miasma of Pestilence is nice for the minus 1 to hit, Blades of putrefaction and putrescent vitality are both excellent to toss on the blightlords in a turn where charging into combat is likely. VoTLW and Blades used together is super nasty considering all the attacks that unit is going to have. I hate to reiterate my point but having two flails of corruption and the extra attack from charging is pretty huge. 

[Marshal Loss]

I know this is Age of Sigmar, but in the preview for the new AoS Chaos faction (Slaves to Darkness) this mechanic caught my eye:

 

The Ravagers are all about “classic” Chaos – disparate warbands led by various champions walking the Path to Glory, attended in battle by outflanking barbarians. To represent this, up to five friendly Ravagers Heroes can have Command Traits, in addition to your General, while Ravagers Generals can summon Marauders, Marauder Horsemen or Warcry warbands (who all have the Cultists keyword) to join the fray.   

 

How cool would it be to have something like this in Codex: CSM? 5 would be a bit silly but I'd love to see a bunch of Warlord Traits spread across the army to represent different leaders vying on the path to glory. Could be a neat mono-faction benefit.

[Panzer]

Nah, 40k doesn't get cool rules like that. 40k is all about them big numbers. 

[TrawlingCleaner]

I know this is Age of Sigmar, but in the preview for the new AoS Chaos faction (Slaves to Darkness) this mechanic caught my eye:

 

The Ravagers are all about “classic” Chaos – disparate warbands led by various champions walking the Path to Glory, attended in battle by outflanking barbarians. To represent this, up to five friendly Ravagers Heroes can have Command Traits, in addition to your General, while Ravagers Generals can summon Marauders, Marauder Horsemen or Warcry warbands (who all have the Cultists keyword) to join the fray.   

 

How cool would it be to have something like this in Codex: CSM? 5 would be a bit silly but I'd love to see a bunch of Warlord Traits spread across the army to represent different leaders vying on the path to glory. Could be a neat mono-faction benefit.

 

Even just being able to have more than one Warlord trait like Marines can do would be really useful

[Guzzlrr]

I know this is Age of Sigmar, but in the preview for the new AoS Chaos faction (Slaves to Darkness) this mechanic caught my eye:

 

The Ravagers are all about “classic” Chaos – disparate warbands led by various champions walking the Path to Glory, attended in battle by outflanking barbarians. To represent this, up to five friendly Ravagers Heroes can have Command Traits, in addition to your General, while Ravagers Generals can summon Marauders, Marauder Horsemen or Warcry warbands (who all have the Cultists keyword) to join the fray.   

 

How cool would it be to have something like this in Codex: CSM? 5 would be a bit silly but I'd love to see a bunch of Warlord Traits spread across the army to represent different leaders vying on the path to glory. Could be a neat mono-faction benefit.

 

 

AOS and 40k seem to do alot of cross pollination i wouldn't be surprised at all if this became a thing 

[Khornestar]

 

I know this is Age of Sigmar, but in the preview for the new AoS Chaos faction (Slaves to Darkness) this mechanic caught my eye:

 

The Ravagers are all about “classic” Chaos – disparate warbands led by various champions walking the Path to Glory, attended in battle by outflanking barbarians. To represent this, up to five friendly Ravagers Heroes can have Command Traits, in addition to your General, while Ravagers Generals can summon Marauders, Marauder Horsemen or Warcry warbands (who all have the Cultists keyword) to join the fray.   

 

How cool would it be to have something like this in Codex: CSM? 5 would be a bit silly but I'd love to see a bunch of Warlord Traits spread across the army to represent different leaders vying on the path to glory. Could be a neat mono-faction benefit.

 

 

AOS and 40k seem to do alot of cross pollination i wouldn't be surprised at all if this became a thing 

 

 

I hope so! Does indeed sound like a very cool mechanic. Creative rules are fun. Or can be, anyway.

[panzerallan]

I hope so! Does indeed sound like a very cool mechanic. Creative rules are fun. Or can be, anyway.

Don't say that too loud, we'll end up with another random Chaos table.

[Brom MKIV]

I was thinking about terminators since I've been using mine again lately. They're solid but still not quite there.

 

I think that all terminators should have rules that make plasma overheat just 1 mortal wound. And terminator bolt weapons should be +1 to ap. This would be enough to make them strong I think.

 

Right now mine are more a concession to cool factor.

[Slave to Darkness]

 

I hope so! Does indeed sound like a very cool mechanic. Creative rules are fun. Or can be, anyway.

Don't say that too loud, we'll end up with another random Chaos table.

 

Fine by me, I miss all the charts from 1st ed. 40k is too simple now for my tastes. Bring back the awesomeness of yesteryear. 

[Panzer]

 

 

I hope so! Does indeed sound like a very cool mechanic. Creative rules are fun. Or can be, anyway.

Don't say that too loud, we'll end up with another random Chaos table.

 

Fine by me, I miss all the charts from 1st ed. 40k is too simple now for my tastes. Bring back the awesomeness of yesteryear. 

 

 

I never had a problem with the random tables in general, just with some of the content on them. If GW had worked on that it would've been perfectly fine to have random stuff imo.

Then again I'm no cutthroat competetive player who needs to be able to predict every little thing so whatever.

[MasterDeath]

 

 

 

 The Feculent Gnarlmaw offers protection for all DAEMONs in your army: Lord Discordants, the newly points decreased Venom Crawlers, the Defilers,...

 

 

 

Nurgle Daemons, except Vehicles and Monsters.

 

 

So, just give them Nurgle mark, then they would have the right keywords then? Or is mark of nurgle and just Nurgle different things for keywords? 

 

 

The improved Cover by the Gnarlmaw does not work on Discordant, Crawlers and Defiler as they are Vehicles, not matter the mark.

[Dallas Drake]

 

 

 

 

 

 

A Daemon battalion can DS a Feculent Gnarlmaw too for 1CP. So you can drop it down where you want and then DS your Oblits right where you want them to get +2 saves & fall back & shoot. It was a good Nurgle tactic before and is certainly even better now.

That´s not true.

 

You can only deepstrike units that are part of your list, but it´s hard to fit a Gnarlmaw into any list due to its battlefield role.

 

The only possible way to "deepstrike" one is to use Horticulus Slimux and summon them with his abilities.

Sorry I don’t understand your point. It is part of the ‘list’. Can you explain to me why I can’t use denizens of the warp on a Gnarlmaw just like any other unit. It has the Daemon keyword so I don’t see why we can’t DS it, it doesn’t matter that it’s a Chaos Daemons Fortification Detachment.

I haven't come across anything preventing this and it was legal awhile back with nothing in the faq on it. The main issue is opportunity cost.. 1 whole detachment 85 pts and a cp. Potent effects though so if your not using that 3rd detachment then a couple trees could find their way into a list built around them.

Exactly. There’s nothing saying this can’t be done and it’s popped up plenty of times in other threads. I agree. It is an investment, one that has to be weighed up tbh & kinda makes one move more towards daemons. But I’m looking at an Iron Warriors detachment of 2x3 Oblits 2x Leviathans and a Warpsmith. A Gnarlmaw makes more sense if I’m dropping in 6 Oblits. Rest of the list will be Nurgle battalion of Poxbringers and Nurglings to screen/infiltrate. Leaves me about 400 points for something, probably squeeze in 3xPBCs to the Nurgle detachment since they don’t lose out much being Nurgle instead of DG & 3x T8 DR tanks is something to chew through to get at the Oblits.

Ok, to explain my point of view.

 

I said: biggest drawback of Gnarlmaws are the additional detachment required to field them.

 

You answered: Just deepstrike them.

 

I said: you can´t di that without incorporating Gnarlmaws into your list. Which, as I pointed out, is not that easy. As others mentioned: You simply "loose" a detachment by fielding Gnarlmaws. If 2 "real" detachments is enough for you, you´re fine. I think in 2000 pts you´ll loose a lot of potential if you go with just 2 detachments + some Gnarlmaws in their own detachment.

 

So literally you´re right. It IS possible to deepstrike Gnarlmaws, but you still have to pay high opportunity costs to be able to do so.

 

BromMkIV said something about 1 cp as opportunity costs, but it is more. Because you loose a third detachment offering additional cp, you loose more than just 1 cp for deepstriking one Gnarlmaw. At least 2.

I see your point now. Yes losing a detachment is a fairly expensive trade off for sure but it’s not like we can’t get cheap battalions with Warpsmiths, Nurglings, Cultists, etc.

 

On further reflection I think if you’re going the Nurgle Gnarlmaw route then you need to build around it. So 2-3 Gnarlmaws and daemons. I’d probably look at a CSM/DG battalion, a Daemons battalion and then the fortifications detachment. 13 CPs isn’t too bad.

 

Edit: after musing over the rules more I think Alpha Legion outwaeighs the Gnarlmaw for my build, their rules and strats are just so solid.

[Guzzlrr]

So Ive played a couple games with the new book and im generally happy with the changes, the iron warriors stratagems give us some cool tools, genuinely had fun 1 game against Grey knights and one against Crimson Fists

 

I was Tabled by Crimson fists but i was caught with my pants down with the vengeful machine spirit strat took out my oblits and almost took my land raider out, thanks to dour duty and iron within iron without i was able to survive the attack in my own phase but he done significant damage to my force in my own phase that i didn't realize he could do so i will need to prepare for that in the future but bearing that in mind i could see me taking on Nu marines quite happily,

 

so in summary. Land Raiders for Iron warriors are good. and ive still got a bit to learn about nu marines but i can see me winning against them

[techsoldaten]

So Ive played a couple games with the new book and im generally happy with the changes, the iron warriors stratagems give us some cool tools, genuinely had fun 1 game against Grey knights and one against Crimson Fists

 

I was Tabled by Crimson fists but i was caught with my pants down with the vengeful machine spirit strat took out my oblits and almost took my land raider out, thanks to dour duty and iron within iron without i was able to survive the attack in my own phase but he done significant damage to my force in my own phase that i didn't realize he could do so i will need to prepare for that in the future but bearing that in mind i could see me taking on Nu marines quite happily,

 

so in summary. Land Raiders for Iron warriors are good. and ive still got a bit to learn about nu marines but i can see me winning against them

I was just coming here to post about Grey Knights.

 

Strike are down to 19 ppm. That's actually really good for a model with a storm bolter and smite. You can put a lot of them on the table.

 

Last weekend, I played against a list with 6 10x squads, combat squadded, plus Paladins and 2 GMNDKs. Was using my Daemon Primarchs.

 

They smited Magnus down to his lowest tier first turn, so no bonus to cast. He wasn't fully buffed and went down to overwatch.

 

They smited Mortarion down to his lowest tier second turn. He did get into combat, killed 2 Strike squads, then died to smite the next turn.

 

One of the GMNDK's got off a charge on Ahriman that turn, killed him. I had a Sicaran and a Nurgle detachment left to face his remaining strikes, the Paladins and the Dreadknights. It did not end well.

 

So, in addition to NuMarines, Grey Knights are better. Great.

[nanosquid]

So, in addition to NuMarines, Grey Knights are better. Great.

Good, maybe now CSM players will have a reason to take actual Chaos Space Marines rather than the same handful of daemon characters over and over and over.

[Kain Mor]

Except if he had, that game could have only gone *worse*

[Panzer]

 

So Ive played a couple games with the new book and im generally happy with the changes, the iron warriors stratagems give us some cool tools, genuinely had fun 1 game against Grey knights and one against Crimson Fists

 

I was Tabled by Crimson fists but i was caught with my pants down with the vengeful machine spirit strat took out my oblits and almost took my land raider out, thanks to dour duty and iron within iron without i was able to survive the attack in my own phase but he done significant damage to my force in my own phase that i didn't realize he could do so i will need to prepare for that in the future but bearing that in mind i could see me taking on Nu marines quite happily,

 

so in summary. Land Raiders for Iron warriors are good. and ive still got a bit to learn about nu marines but i can see me winning against them

I was just coming here to post about Grey Knights.

 

Strike are down to 19 ppm. That's actually really good for a model with a storm bolter and smite. You can put a lot of them on the table.

 

Last weekend, I played against a list with 6 10x squads, combat squadded, plus Paladins and 2 GMNDKs. Was using my Daemon Primarchs.

 

They smited Magnus down to his lowest tier first turn, so no bonus to cast. He wasn't fully buffed and went down to overwatch.

 

They smited Mortarion down to his lowest tier second turn. He did get into combat, killed 2 Strike squads, then died to smite the next turn.

 

One of the GMNDK's got off a charge on Ahriman that turn, killed him. I had a Sicaran and a Nurgle detachment left to face his remaining strikes, the Paladins and the Dreadknights. It did not end well.

 

So, in addition to NuMarines, Grey Knights are better. Great.

 

 

To be fair, Daemon Primarchs are one of the best things GK could hope to face since it boosts their mini-smites when targeting daemons. It's not really representative of their strength against most other lists.

[Guzzlrr]

 

 

 

 

So Ive played a couple games with the new book and im generally happy with the changes, the iron warriors stratagems give us some cool tools, genuinely had fun 1 game against Grey knights and one against Crimson Fists

 

I was Tabled by Crimson fists but i was caught with my pants down with the vengeful machine spirit strat took out my oblits and almost took my land raider out, thanks to dour duty and iron within iron without i was able to survive the attack in my own phase but he done significant damage to my force in my own phase that i didn't realize he could do so i will need to prepare for that in the future but bearing that in mind i could see me taking on Nu marines quite happily,

 

so in summary. Land Raiders for Iron warriors are good. and ive still got a bit to learn about nu marines but i can see me winning against them

I was just coming here to post about Grey Knights.

 

Strike are down to 19 ppm. That's actually really good for a model with a storm bolter and smite. You can put a lot of them on the table.

 

Last weekend, I played against a list with 6 10x squads, combat squadded, plus Paladins and 2 GMNDKs. Was using my Daemon Primarchs.

 

They smited Magnus down to his lowest tier first turn, so no bonus to cast. He wasn't fully buffed and went down to overwatch.

 

They smited Mortarion down to his lowest tier second turn. He did get into combat, killed 2 Strike squads, then died to smite the next turn.

 

One of the GMNDK's got off a charge on Ahriman that turn, killed him. I had a Sicaran and a Nurgle detachment left to face his remaining strikes, the Paladins and the Dreadknights. It did not end well.

 

So, in addition to NuMarines, Grey Knights are better. Great.

To be fair, Daemon Primarchs are one of the best things GK could hope to face since it boosts their mini-smites when targeting daemons. It's not really representative of their strength against most other lists.

Yeah GKS have always been able to murder my Primartchs tbf

[nanosquid]

Except if he had, that game could have only gone *worse*

You know what would have laughed at GK smites? A single rhino driving in front of them. Smite only does 1 damage when coming from GK unless it targets a Daemon.

[Archaeinox]

I mean if you go up against Gk and bring 2 daemon primarchs, you deserve every smite you get

 

 

Yeah definitely not an indicator of how good GK are

[Excessus]

Though, with point reductions and the coming PA book, we might see more of them in the future. So it's a good thing to be aware of.

[Captain_Krash]

GK's main strength are against Deamons. I don't understand the complaint of bringing Deamons against them losing and complaining. GK are in a rough spot as it is. I'm glad they do as well as they do vs Deamons. 

 

It's nice to see actual CSM on the board now. Mass powerarmor hoard style is a thing once again and it is good.

 

Krash

[Aothaine]

It's nice to see actual CSM on the board now. Mass powerarmor hoard style is a thing once again and it is good.

 

Krash

 

I looked back through the posts and I don't see the support for this statement. Which part of Faith & Fury make CSM power-armour hordes good? Really curious.

[nanosquid]

 

It's nice to see actual CSM on the board now. Mass powerarmor hoard style is a thing once again and it is good.

 

Krash

 

I looked back through the posts and I don't see the support for this statement. Which part of Faith & Fury make CSM power-armour hordes good? Really curious.

 

 

Nothing, chapter approved making actual marines cheaper made them better. Cultists got cheaper too but that just means you can have more of both.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Faith and Fury also made the various Legions better, by giving them additional (and pretty good) stratagems, chaos artifacts and warlord skills.  While these are harder to analyze than the "across the board" boosts that would have occurred had GW improved our <LEGION> traits (as occurred with the various Space Marine chapters), they do increase the powers of Chaos armies.

 

So, really its the point drop of a lot of different things in our codex (most notably marines and cultists) from CA 2019 combined with the increased options and potency of our <LEGION> non-trait benefits in F&F - the drop in points allows for more/bigger units (and potentially more CPs), while F&F gives addtional/better ways of spending those CPs.