Chaos vs. New Marines

[Hannibal]

I'm going to try Red Corsairs Biker/Terminator heavy forces. It's the mixture of additional CP, high speed, Run and charge and lots of Dakka.

[Aothaine]

I understand why everyone is frustrated. I really do. I've played plenty of games that ended in the first turn or second turn. This is not something new though. T'au still have this aura of disgust around them from the riptide spam from 7th. We all should agree that 8th has come a long way toward balancing the game out. Back in 7th you could legit play turn 1 games where 80% of your army was gone before you even had a turn. GW is trying to fix problems that have existed for years and it will take some time, especially with their release schedule. 

 

Even still though I think there are plenty of ways for Chaos to fight back even without using Death Guard. But why would you use anything else but Death Guard right now? They are hands down some of the best space marines in the game. T5, 5+++ is amazing! They have both melee and ranged builds and have unique vehicles designed to help with either build or a mix of the two builds. You then have access to some of the strongest psychic powers in the game. 

 

This next part is really harsh. So, if you read it be ready.

If you plan on playing in a hyper competitive environment and want to succeed, you will need to give up the idea that you can do it with any army. You are going to want to scour codexes for broken combinations that will give you any advantage over the dice that you can get. You want to make sure your army can handle any current meta lists and be prepared to learn hard and difficult lessons when you make mistakes. That is the nature of competitive play and will always remain the same regardless of the edition you are playing. If you think you can just pick up random CSM army and do well you are deceiving yourself. You need to be either super lucky (aka Spider from Tabletop Tactics) or very strategically minded and can build very strong lists despite the meta. 

 

Everyone wants to win. Winning is fun. It is satisfying. But instead of just pointing at an army and saying it is OP is not how you become a better player. Think about what you could have done different, how you could have won if you used different units or moved in a different way. Could you have set traps for your opponent? Could you have focused on objectives to win the game? Was it just a "bad luck" game where you failed nearly every save and failed to wound on nearly every wound roll? Analyze your games and become a better player.

 

If you are playing for fun, realize that you should be playing with the rules that just use power-level and the campaign rules. The only reason to use the points system is if you want to play in a competitive environment.

 

Now, if you didn't read that spoiler then I just want to remind you that this is a game. You're supposed to enjoy the game. I understand that not all games are equal and that sometimes the rules of a new codex are a bit stronger than the codices that were released years before it. But just be patient. We all know how GW releases their codices and know that nearly every codex has their time to shine. Be creative with your lists and try different units out while you wait.

I'm going to try Red Corsairs Biker/Terminator heavy forces. It's the mixture of additional CP, high speed, Run and charge and lots of Dakka.

 

I have a some-what similar list. If you check my Renegade White Scars below you can see it. Based on all the bat-reps I've seen recently this Chaos list should be able to smash opponents still. Just want to make sure that you realize is it not a friendly list by any means. It is a list designed to wipe the opponent off the table by turn 3.

[Kain Mor]

I don’t care about hyper competitive games, I want to have even a chance of winning friendly games without souping or going nurgle. I don’t see that as an option.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I also think its fair that players might want GW to even the playing field - while not every army can the "best army", certainly a better ballance could be struck such that less armies are out-and-out rubbish competitively.

 

Now, regardless of how reasonable such hopes are doesn't mean that the are realistic. :)

[Captain Incompetence]

This next part is really harsh. So, if you read it be ready.

If you plan on playing in a hyper competitive environment and want to succeed, you will need to give up the idea that you can do it with any army. You are going to want to scour codexes for broken combinations that will give you any advantage over the dice that you can get. You want to make sure your army can handle any current meta lists and be prepared to learn hard and difficult lessons when you make mistakes. That is the nature of competitive play and will always remain the same regardless of the edition you are playing. If you think you can just pick up random CSM army and do well you are deceiving yourself. You need to be either super lucky (aka Spider from Tabletop Tactics) or very strategically minded and can build very strong lists despite the meta. 

 

Everyone wants to win. Winning is fun. It is satisfying. But instead of just pointing at an army and saying it is OP is not how you become a better player. Think about what you could have done different, how you could have won if you used different units or moved in a different way. Could you have set traps for your opponent? Could you have focused on objectives to win the game? Was it just a "bad luck" game where you failed nearly every save and failed to wound on nearly every wound roll? Analyze your games and become a better player.

 

If you are playing for fun, realize that you should be playing with the rules that just use power-level and the campaign rules. The only reason to use the points system is if you want to play in a competitive environment.

 

Now, if you didn't read that spoiler then I just want to remind you that this is a game. You're supposed to enjoy the game. I understand that not all games are equal and that sometimes the rules of a new codex are a bit stronger than the codices that were released years before it. But just be patient. We all know how GW releases their codices and know that nearly every codex has their time to shine. Be creative with your lists and try different units out while you wait.

 

While I understand what you're trying to say, the problem CSM currently have is that there simply aren't any units to try out. People have tried them and found them wanting. There's a reason why every CSM tournament list is taking Forgeworld Dreadnoughts and Daemon troops over anything in the codex. It's not just that these units are really good, but more so that the CSM codex units are just terrible in an even remotely competitive environment. The only things the CSM codex bring are Daemon Engines with the Soulforged Pack. However, besides those, playing with CSM units right now feels like you're playing 2/3rd to half of the points that your opponent is bringing. You can say whatever you want about the way you approach defeat as a player and not instantly claim something is OP, but people aren't really complaining about stuff being overpowered as much as they're complaining about how the CSM codex is just garbage-tier terrible. The new Space Marine codex has just highlighted how atrociously awful our options actually are.

 

I'm not just saying this as a CSM player either. I play Imperial Guard and Dark Eldar too, which are both competitively viable armies. However, the massive difference between my armies isn't just their playstyle, but rather that if I build an IG or Dark Eldar list, I actually have choices which are viable. I can play around with different units and not feel like I'm throwing away the game before the first die has been rolled. While making a CSM army, I end up pouring hours into it trying out new combo's, only to go back to Daemon Engine spam or FW Dreadnoughts cause everything else is just too janky and fragile to reliably work.

[techsoldaten]

Maybe it's time to start talking about different list types match up.

 

I played against Ultramarines last night, all Primaris troops. The list was 3 Infiltrators, 6 Intercessors, 2 Repulsors, a Dreadnought and some HQs (along with some other units I am forgetting.) I tried MSU and Daemons against him: a Chainlord, a JP Sorcerer, a Dark Apostle, 2 Contemptors with double butcher cannons, 6 squads of 15 Cultists, lascannons Havocs, a Bloodmaster and 3 squads of Bloodletters (2 x 30 and 1x 10.)

 

The game lasted until turn 4. The first thing he did was deploy the Infiltrators near the middle of the table, which created a wall of deep strike denial. I moved forward with everything the first turn and my goal was to kill some Infiltrators to create an opening for Bloodletters to arrive in charge range. 4 lascannon and 100+ autogun shots later, I killed a total of 4 Infiltrators in 2 squads.

 

His response was to gun down Cultists and take shots at the Dreadnoughts, killing about 40 Cultists and destroying one Contemptor. Turn 2, I pressed forward, getting one of the Infiltrators into cc with cultists, catching another with the Chainlord, and scoring some wounds on his Dreadnought. He still had the 12" screen up with the Infiltrators so there was nowhere to deep strike Bloodletters. His response was to gun down the other Contemptor, kill the Chainlord in cc, and wipe out another 20 Cultists.

 

Turn 3, I had a Sorcerer, a Dark Apostle, a Bloodmaster, 30 Cultists, the Havocs and all these Bloodletters. He had lost some models / wounds but no units. The BLs came on but not in charge range. I did some more wounds to his Dreadnought and did get the rest of the Cultists into cc, but they were cut down in close combat. At that point, his entire army had moved up and he shot down 2 squads of Bloodletters, the Sorcerer, and the Dark Apostle.

 

Turn 4, I had a Bloodmaster, a squad of Bloodletters, and the Havocs. He had his entire army.

 

So I knew it was going to be a rough game, this just demonstrates the futility of MSU spam and deep strike. I had over 100 models on the board and body count meant nothing. If he didn't want to use Infiltrators, he could have used Drop Pods to create an even better wall to deny charges from deep strike.

 

Not feeling salty about it, I will switch to Daemon Engines and Bikers in the next game to get a sense of how it performs. It just seems like there's too many ways for NuMarines to counter MSU / Deep Strike chaos lists, Chaos players have to commit too much offense to clearing the way for deep strikers for it to be worth it. I did enjoy the game because my objectives were clear and some better dice rolling may have made it a little more dramatic. But it felt like I had 2 battles, one to clear the way and one to fight the rest of his army, and I'm not sure you can do that practically in a 5-turn game.

[Espresso]

Well I come fresh from the weekend tournament and I can say that the new marines are nasty. I have fought them with a pure Chaos Knight list and whilst I got one victory and one defeat against the Ultramarines, I have learned a lot. 

 

I have noticed the following: 

 

- the deathstar of Agressors and lots of support characters is nasty, but it can be dealt at a veeeery long range. I plinked at them from far away with my War Dogs and Knight Despoiler and I was able to reduce a lot of marines to a red mist. 

 

- the drop pod list is extremely dangerous. I was on the receiving end of Grav-Devastators in a Drop Pod and I barely managed to survive the sheer fire they are able to unleash. And this was an Ultramarines list, I fear for the IH variant. 

 

- melee with the new marines is doable but with a knight or something else as large. I cannot see an infantry unit reaching a marine line to tackle them in melee. The "Tau" overwatch stratagem is very dangerous and works very well with Ultramarines who are clustered together (read drop pod list). It almost costed me my Knight Desecrator.

 

- Transhuman Phisiology. THIS IS NASTY. This stratagem allowed a Devastator squad to tank an inordinate number of shots. I think we should bait the opponent to use it on something else other than the unit we plan to really shoot at. It was a cold shower and voided most of my damage for a turn.

 

Still all is not doom and gloom. As I have said, my success with the Chaos Knights was 50/50 against the new Marines. With an investment in a Thousand Sons detachment or in a small Red Corsair detachment we can close the gap between the two armies. Not by much but it is something. A Double Avenger Chaos Knight is bad news for the Primaris marines and so it is an opponent who has more range. Autocannons are a nice tool against the new marines and so is a Riverdancing Chaos Knight. 

[Phok Smoulder]

be wary of setting up a PB shield/smite style army at this point though. I just spent a lot of money on a list like this last month, and now primaris hard counter me with their character snipers and stuff. I have a feeling a huge amount of the minis I just bought are now pretty much useless. 

does anyone know if I will be able to return them? I have only opened one box of them. 

[techsoldaten]

be wary of setting up a PB shield/smite style army at this point though. I just spent a lot of money on a list like this last month, and now primaris hard counter me with their character snipers and stuff. I have a feeling a huge amount of the minis I just bought are now pretty much useless. 

 

does anyone know if I will be able to return them? I have only opened one box of them. 

 

If you bought them direct from GW, sure. Just take them back, they have a no questions asked policy on returns. I've seen people return painted, fully assembled models before.

 

If you bought them from a retailer, ask the retailer.

[Closet Skeleton]

I tried MSU and Daemons against him: a Chainlord, a JP Sorcerer, a Dark Apostle, 2 Contemptors with double butcher cannons, 6 squads of 15 Cultists, lascannons Havocs, a Bloodmaster and 3 squads of Bloodletters (2 x 30 and 1x 10.)

 

 

MSU is 'multiple small units', your list doesn't sound like MSU to me, 3 havoc squads isn't MSU. 15 is small for cultists but cultists can't MSU effectively in the first place.

 

Infiltrators are vulnerable to first turn charges but you're never going to get bloodletters to work against them unless you can deploy them out of line of sight on turn 1.

[MegaVolt87]

 

be wary of setting up a PB shield/smite style army at this point though. I just spent a lot of money on a list like this last month, and now primaris hard counter me with their character snipers and stuff. I have a feeling a huge amount of the minis I just bought are now pretty much useless. 

 

does anyone know if I will be able to return them? I have only opened one box of them. 

 

If you bought them direct from GW, sure. Just take them back, they have a no questions asked policy on returns. I've seen people return painted, fully assembled models before.

 

If you bought them from a retailer, ask the retailer.

 

 

Yeah, I think depends on where you buy and what consumer law is where you are. If unopened + with receipts I imagine no problem returning stuff most of the time. Admittedly, the new sniper capabilities built into SM has me concerned as in the CSM side we only have limited options to increase the tank of characters. Our buff abilities from sorc powers and the apostle really need to shift to aura for effects, we are crazy vulnerable to snipes. Maybe if we had transhuman physiology, would help somewhat. So far for good stuff we seem to have force wise-

 

Flawless host Soulforged pack detachment

The purge gunline/ devastation battery detachment

Alpha Legion (still -1 to hit though?)

Red corsairs + chaos knights

Deathguard/ Deathguard detachments

FW units (mainly dreads for points efficiency)

Power armour tides (maybe)

 

We really need more bat reps though, loyalists seem to have a lot. Maybe someone could link the ones with CSM here for now until we generate more here ourselves? 

[Prot]

I make a lot of batreps, but not the video type. Just earlier this summer I also did a full 6 round report on an ITC event I attended on my blog with the Black Legion.

 

As far as what’s said above, especially about marines, I’ll try to address that with my own experiences playing Ultras well as Black Legion, Thousand Sons and Chaos Knights.

 

The “Don’t “ column.

 

Don’t rely too heavily on cheap troops. First off small squads of Cultists really stink for ITC but are okay for 40k games. However Aggressors are amazing now. More so with Ultramarines, but to be honest all the loyalist chapters are super good at dishing out a boat load of low AP s4 ranged weapons. Note: with drop pods on the comeback, you have to sacrifice some units some times. Make sure you can live without them.

 

Further to the above, don’t walk infantry or play gunline infantry if you can help it. Rhinos aren’t horrible. Infantry overall is in a rough spot with Tau, Space Marines, Necrons, Astra, and Dark Eldar anyway. I just played a tournament DE list last night and was reminded how punishing all that Venom Spam can be.

 

Avoid too many flimsy characters. It’s been said and I know we need them to empower mediocre units, but character sniping is at an all time high. Eliminators do this really easily in numbers but other armies can focus down chaos hq’s easily... AdMech Arquebus’, GSC snipers, etc.

 

The “Do” column:

 

Speed is king... speed or deepstriking. Over time I’ve seen less and less success with static chaos. I think we want to be forcing marines, or anyone for that matter to move away, or force confrontation sooner rather than later.

 

Deepstrike and or Indirect seems mandatory. Even though it’s difficult between Termies or Raptors, it’s a must to put it in your opponent’s head that you can reach him quick. There’s a bloody whirlwind or Thunderfire cannon in every list now. GSC love mortars, and the new AdMech Skorpius will be using it more and more since it’s a Primaris killer.

 

Vehicles with speed. The obvious answer here is Disco Lords. But I don’t think they’re quite as awesome as some would have you believe. They hit VERY hard in the right match up, but they fade fast too. I ha e started using even the Landraider again ( which should be 20 points less) and Preds, and Vindicators with D6 shots now.

[Khornestar]

Soulforged Pack, would you say Kytan is more worthwhile in this detachment?

[MegaVolt87]

I really don't want to go back to playing a mech based infantry list with rhino's as that was what my BL was in the past. It worked, and I assume would work better now with how BL are these days. I got kinda a tide with 68 MEQ in my revised 2k IW list. Before the new SM dex, I felt like we were kinda even a bit dmg wise, new SM dex I feel so behind as CSM with the dmg now that can be put out. Hopefully we get points cuts again in the next CA at least. If our stuff is going to stay relatively crappy for the foreseeable future, it may as well be less points..... 

[Prot]

Soulforged Pack, would you say Kytan is more worthwhile in this detachment?

 

So the problem here is that the Kytan would be in its own detachment so it wouldn't really work. 

 

What I have done though is feature him around a Soul Forged detachment, and inherently he does become scarier. The thing I find very good about the Kytan compared to taking (for example) a single Knight is he can be fully buffed by your Apostle/Sorcs, etc. 

 

I've had my Dark Apostle make him -1 to hit, while the Soul Forged pack zips ahead. This helps the Kytan, but I wouldn't call it a 'top tier' army but it's much better than a lot of offerings right now. It leads to much funner games in my opinion against much more competitive armies. (for what it's worth!)

 

I really don't want to go back to playing a mech based infantry list with rhino's as that was what my BL was in the past. It worked, and I assume would work better now with how BL are these days. I got kinda a tide with 68 MEQ in my revised 2k IW list. Before the new SM dex, I felt like we were kinda even a bit dmg wise, new SM dex I feel so behind as CSM with the dmg now that can be put out. Hopefully we get points cuts again in the next CA at least. If our stuff is going to stay relatively crappy for the foreseeable future, it may as well be less points..... 

 

Yea that's a tough road to travel Mega. Don't forget while people now plan a bit more to play against Space Marines, that means most of what their doing will intrinsically hurt our Chaos Marines. So if you felt uphill before with a largely tide based list, I feel it is worse right now between marines getting a big shot on low strength volume shooting, and other armies prepping for marines.

 

The London GT had a staggering amount of marines. Maybe it won't stay that high, however it shows us that you have to think anti-marine at these type of events going forward which again makes it a steeper climb for our 1 wound bolter wielding dudes of yesteryear.

 

I do agree Rhino's are a little boring, and you can see loyalists don't even really need them with the amount of 2-3 wound infantry they can flood the field with. And when necessary, they are going to use a single, or dual Repulsor which puts out a heck of a lot more than a Landraider, For this reason I really don't know if we will see many Impulsors hit the competitive scene. That said I don't like foot bound chaos right now... it's just too easy to wipe them.

 

My logic is I play against some horde like armies with Ultra... even massed Plague bearer lists are in big trouble now, so I see it making CSM on foot a rough ride as well. I still use Havocs though, but they always start in Rhino's now. Between pods/TFC's/Intercessors/Aggressors... they just go like a fart in the wind.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Prot, does being Alpha Legion change your view on massed Chaos infantry at all?

[Prot]

Prot, does being Alpha Legion change your view on massed Chaos infantry at all?

 

The way I personally provide opinion is based on me playing it or having a lot of experience against it. So to be honest... I can't provide opinion on that. All I can say there is that at local events the Alpha Legion disappeared here. Last year it was every where. In fact aside from myself... I'm having trouble recalling playing against any non-Alpha Legion CSM list.

 

What are your findings in this new era since you play Alpha?

[DominikB]

Prot, does being Alpha Legion change your view on massed Chaos infantry at all?

Not Prof, but with re-rolls not being failed only the -4 is slowly becoming less relevant than it used to be. Also losing it on cultists was a big loss as it really hurts their survivability

[MegaVolt87]

Thinking it over more, might switch over to chosen in rhino's to double down on that mid range shooting with special spam in the future. I'll just see how long I can suffer with my foot sloggers for now. At least I have the pretty FW rhino's now on the painting pile. 

[Painjunky]

I gotta agree with Prot.

 

Our infantry just drowns in a sea of bullets.

Our static gunlines are outclassed by almost everyone.

Speed is king. We need to cross the table in 2 turns.

Indirect fire and snipers hurts us bad.

 

80% or more of our army needs to be fast, tough and hit hard.

So viable units are...

vehicles,

LOW,

deamon engines,

helbrutes,

knights,

transports,

bikes,

deep strikers,

princes,

jump lords/sorcerers that can hide from snipers. 

[techsoldaten]

Had an interesting game tonight, had to deal with Intercessor spam. Range was a major factor, wanted to share some tactics.

 

Played against the same list Ultramarines list as last time - 3 Infiltrators, 6 Intercessors, 2 Repulsors, a Redemptor and some HQs. He had a couple of the Primaris Terminator-like things as well, don't know the name.

 

I went back to playing my Black Legion gunline, which I hadn't used in a while. It was Abaddon, DP with Wings, Chaos Lord, 3x 5 CSM w/ lascannon, 3x Havocs w/ 4 lascannon, 3x Scorpius. Very simple, lots of shooting and a couple beatsticks.

 

Most of my army deployed on the right side of the board, close to the edge, while the DP and a CL dropped on the other side to grab objectives. The Scorpius' were placed behind a building, blocking LOS. I created as much distance as possible to force him to have to come to me.

 

My opponent kind of split up his forces: a couple Intercessors, an Infiltrator and a Lieutenant towards the back, then the rest of his army moving towards the front, moving diagonally across the board.

 

Primaris still don't do well footslogging. I knew he wouldn't be able to shoot with most of his army the first couple turns and just pounded them. He lost one Repulsor first turn, almost lost a second, and lost 3 squads of Intercessors to the Scorpius'. The Scorpius' are Primaris killers - 3D3 shots, S6, AP-2, D2, indirect fire, fires twice if I don't move. Each one averaged about 10 shots a piece. Primaris get a 5+ save against their D2 shots and it's enough to kill about 4 Primaris each turn.

 

A couple turns of shooting destroyed most of the main battle group - everything but the Infiltrators, the Redemptor, the Terminator-like things and a Captain was off the board. I lost a CSM squad and a couple Havocs but that's it. I was able to kill the Redemptor with lascannons and the Terminator-like things with Abaddon while the Scorpius' took care of the rest of the units. The game went 6 turns and he had a Lieutenant left.

 

Now, this is a skew list, it's not a TAAC list, and it's not going top win you tournaments. The combination of Indirect Fire, High strength weapons, and rerolls from Abaddon won the game for me.

 

But it does demonstrate a few weakness for NuMarines. Namely:

 

- they suck when they have to footslog

 

- they are susceptible to D2 negative AP weapons

 

- players don't always remember to use Redemptors for transports

[Aothaine]

Love how constructive this post is so far. I wonder if we have any World Eaters players out there that have had the opportunity to try out a list with the new Havocs, Berzerkers and Melee focused Helbrutes. 

[McElMcNinja]

I took a leviathan with 2x butcher and a knight with 2x avengers, with Deathguard against all prrimaris Salamanders (he had multiple unit types, so I saw it all) and 3 repulsors with loads of shooty weapons. I got first turn destroyed a repulsar, during his turn he took out my leviathan. Turn 2 is got off the Plague-bomb, between that and my other shooting plus my charge with DG assault squad, DP, knight, and jpLord, I took out 5 units. I tabled him in 4 turns after that, the most glorious moment was when he charged a repulsor at Blightspawn and it died to overwatch. He then decided not to charge with his smash captain, who died to his sprayer the next turn.

 

I wish I could go mono-Deathguard, but I need the damage output to kill them. Maybe if they gave me DG traits apply to every unit I would certainly run mono. Image DG Possessed with +1 toughness and FNP, even better if we also got access to greater Possessed and MoP's.

 

I don't think they are an issue if you can sit back and shoot and/or get in their face quickly.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Love how constructive this post is so far. I wonder if we have any World Eaters players out there that have had the opportunity to try out a list with the new Havocs, Berzerkers and Melee focused Helbrutes. 

Will see what I can do on that front, but it may be a month or two. I have exactly that sort of list built, but may not be able to get a game with it.

 

3 Brutes, a Contemptor, a Dreadclaw, 3x5 Berzerkers, 1x5 Havocs, 1 Rhino, Exalted Champ built for Flames of Spite, Dark Apostle, Terminator Lord, 7 Plasma Termies, A Hellwright, and a Flamestorm/Dual Heavy Flamer Hellforged Predator. A fair amount of target saturation with high toughness and wounds, plus the ability to close quickly, and everything in the list can fight competently in CC, apart from the Rhino and even it might get lucky. Literally everything is an obvious threat, forcing tough decisions.

[Aothaine]

 

Literally everything is an obvious threat, forcing tough decisions.

 

This is a key element to list building imho. You want to make sure your entire list poses a threat of some kind. You want to saturate your opponent with priority targets.