Chaos vs. New Marines

[Prot]

I took a leviathan with 2x butcher and a knight with 2x avengers, with Deathguard against all prrimaris Salamanders (he had multiple unit types, so I saw it all) and 3 repulsors with loads of shooty weapons. I got first turn destroyed a repulsar, during his turn he took out my leviathan. Turn 2 is got off the Plague-bomb, between that and my other shooting plus my charge with DG assault squad, DP, knight, and jpLord, I took out 5 units. I tabled him in 4 turns after that, the most glorious moment was when he charged a repulsor at Blightspawn and it died to overwatch. He then decided not to charge with his smash captain, who died to his sprayer the next turn.

 

I wish I could go mono-Deathguard, but I need the damage output to kill them. Maybe if they gave me DG traits apply to every unit I would certainly run mono. Image DG Possessed with +1 toughness and FNP, even better if we also got access to greater Possessed and MoP's.

 

I don't think they are an issue if you can sit back and shoot and/or get in their face quickly.

 

I am sorry McNinja but I have to question the tactics of any marine player charging a Repulsor into a Blightspawn. That's just a terrible idea. Last game I played against DG I assaulted the thing next to a Blightspawn, then activated into the Blightspawn. Biiiig difference.

 

The thing is some of these NuMarine players are just swinging for the fences with whatever. I do think however that DG are best equipped to face off against their Infantry. And yea a Dual Avenger Knight is absolutely money against their infantry... even their vehicles if you go with the right house trait. 

 

 

Had an interesting game tonight, had to deal with Intercessor spam. Range was a major factor, wanted to share some tactics.

 

Played against the same list Ultramarines list as last time - 3 Infiltrators, 6 Intercessors, 2 Repulsors, a Redemptor and some HQs. He had a couple of the Primaris Terminator-like things as well, don't know the name.

 

I went back to playing my Black Legion gunline, which I hadn't used in a while. It was Abaddon, DP with Wings, Chaos Lord, 3x 5 CSM w/ lascannon, 3x Havocs w/ 4 lascannon, 3x Scorpius. Very simple, lots of shooting and a couple beatsticks.

 

Most of my army deployed on the right side of the board, close to the edge, while the DP and a CL dropped on the other side to grab objectives. The Scorpius' were placed behind a building, blocking LOS. I created as much distance as possible to force him to have to come to me.

 

My opponent kind of split up his forces: a couple Intercessors, an Infiltrator and a Lieutenant towards the back, then the rest of his army moving towards the front, moving diagonally across the board.

 

Primaris still don't do well footslogging. I knew he wouldn't be able to shoot with most of his army the first couple turns and just pounded them. He lost one Repulsor first turn, almost lost a second, and lost 3 squads of Intercessors to the Scorpius'. The Scorpius' are Primaris killers - 3D3 shots, S6, AP-2, D2, indirect fire, fires twice if I don't move. Each one averaged about 10 shots a piece. Primaris get a 5+ save against their D2 shots and it's enough to kill about 4 Primaris each turn.

 

A couple turns of shooting destroyed most of the main battle group - everything but the Infiltrators, the Redemptor, the Terminator-like things and a Captain was off the board. I lost a CSM squad and a couple Havocs but that's it. I was able to kill the Redemptor with lascannons and the Terminator-like things with Abaddon while the Scorpius' took care of the rest of the units. The game went 6 turns and he had a Lieutenant left.

 

Now, this is a skew list, it's not a TAAC list, and it's not going top win you tournaments. The combination of Indirect Fire, High strength weapons, and rerolls from Abaddon won the game for me.

 

But it does demonstrate a few weakness for NuMarines. Namely:

 

- they suck when they have to footslog

 

- they are susceptible to D2 negative AP weapons

 

- players don't always remember to use Redemptors for transports

 

I think there's some good stuff here. Some stuff for me to pull out again as well. My Havocs kind of took a back seat to my Chaos Knight detachment but again, I would definitely put them in Rhinos.

 

The Scorpius is good.. just so expensive. I really dont' want to buy one but it's looking more and more necessary.

 

On Footslogging marines... they actually can do really well. One guy at the LGT was pure foot sloggers (except 2 TFC's I believe?) Nearly pure anyway. And he ended up beating GSC in the semi finalys.. .not sure where he ended up, but it was very potent. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

I am sorry McNinja but I have to question the tactics of any marine player charging a Repulsor into a Blightspawn. That's just a terrible idea. Last game I played against DG I assaulted the thing next to a Blightspawn, then activated into the Blightspawn. Biiiig difference.

 

The thing is some of these NuMarine players are just swinging for the fences with whatever. I do think however that DG are best equipped to face off against their Infantry. And yea a Dual Avenger Knight is absolutely money against their infantry... even their vehicles if you go with the right house trait. 

 

 

 

 

I can see what the Marine player was trying to do. He was trying to soak up Overwatch so the Captain could charge and kill him. Unfortunately, Blightspawns have an annoying habit of going nuts and auto-killing things when the opponent least wants them to.

 

As for the Knight, I prefer Dual Thermal with an Icarus Autocannon and Helm of Warp Sight. Strips the Icarus of all of its mods and turns it into a useful weapon overall (and a great target for Daemonic Surge), while still retaining effectiveness against fliers and stealth shenanigans, and Dual Thermal with Trail of Destruction can really do a number on any sort of Marine army in my experience. It effectively eliminates cover as an issue because of the modifiers and retaining decent firepower because you're rolling 2D6 for shot count regardless of unit size now. Backed up by the Icarus and a Heavy Stubber, it becomes flexible and interesting. Plus, most importantly, it's CHEAP.

 

For outranging them, Dual Battle Cannon + Ironstorm works wonders given the average firepower and the Knight's mobility and height. Nowhere to hide and difficult to counter.

 

Avenger is the best all around choice, but for specializing in murdering the types of Primaris lists I usually see (lots of direct fire with heavy armor support), I prefer the other two. Of course, I still usually have a Dual Avenger in my army if I can afford the points.

Edited September 27, 2019 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Kain Mor]

The thing is Sallies still don’t have their book out, so games against them are iffy for this discussion.

[Prot]

 

 

 

 

As for the Knight, I prefer Dual Thermal with an Icarus Autocannon and Helm of Warp Sight. Strips the Icarus of all of its mods and turns it into a useful weapon overall (and a great target for Daemonic Surge), while still retaining effectiveness against fliers and stealth shenanigans, and Dual Thermal with Trail of Destruction can really do a number on any sort of Marine army in my experience. It effectively eliminates cover as an issue because of the modifiers and retaining decent firepower because you're rolling 2D6 for shot count regardless of unit size now. Backed up by the Icarus and a Heavy Stubber, it becomes flexible and interesting. Plus, most importantly, it's CHEAP.

 

For outranging them, Dual Battle Cannon + Ironstorm works wonders given the average firepower and the Knight's mobility and height. Nowhere to hide and difficult to counter.

 

Avenger is the best all around choice, but for specializing in murdering the types of Primaris lists I usually see (lots of direct fire with heavy armor support), I prefer the other two. Of course, I still usually have a Dual Avenger in my army if I can afford the points.

 

 

I think the dual Thermal is a good choice as well.. very economical but that D6 is a killer, but it's great for the points. I still prefer the idea of putting the Avenger with ignoring modifiers for probably the best all arounder including Eldar Airshow. But since we're talking CSM vs NuMarines....

 

I don't play Red Corsairs anymore. I still have my old models, but this is the choice people seem to go with for allying in Chaos Knights. I painted up all my new stuff as Black Legion... I actually won best painted an ITC event so it's really hard for me to consider repainting.

 

Outside of Knights, the Foregworld stuff still has options that keep the Legion keyword, and therefore give Black Legion the ability to juice up a Kytan, or something of that nature. Even the Dark Apostle can apply litanies on him... and that would include Deredeo's and Conptemptors etc.

[Slave to Darkness]

Not really lookin forward to playing against Nu-Mehreenz, I already handicap myself by not using the obvious units (Disco Lords, Dinobots etc) too expensive in real world money and :cussin awfull sculpts. Guess Im just gonna struggle with my Possessed and Spawn heavy lists. I should be used to this considering chaos have always been at the bottom of the pile since the 3.5 dex. Now I remember why I moved over to the Horus Heresy years ago. 

Edited September 29, 2019 by Slave to Darkness

[Prot]

Not really lookin forward to playing against Nu-Mehreenz, I already handicap myself by not using the obvious units (Disco Lords, Dinobots etc) too expensive in real world money and :cussin awfull sculpts. Guess Im just gonna struggle with my Possessed and Spawn heavy lists. I should be used to this considering chaos have always been at the bottom of the pile since the 3.5 dex. Now I remember why I moved over to the Horus Heresy years ago. 

 

Does this mean you are or aren't playing against NuMarines with you chaos in 40K?

[BlueBiscuit Raider]

I'm not really looking forward to fighting Iron Hands with my DG in the future, especially since I run a mostly fluffy mono Death Guard army, not even Nurgle Daemons as allies, and I can't help but feel that with the combination of their characters and rules they vehicles are just better than DG's best units, which are the PBCs and the Drones.

[McElMcNinja]

An iron hands army tied for first at my tournament this weekend (I took 6th). The last game he tied against a Tau army (the one I lost to). They were pretty nasty from what I got see. I actually like facing Marines, because DytFE kicks in and I miss that against other armies.

[Slave to Darkness]

 

Not really lookin forward to playing against Nu-Mehreenz, I already handicap myself by not using the obvious units (Disco Lords, Dinobots etc) too expensive in real world money and :cussin awfull sculpts. Guess Im just gonna struggle with my Possessed and Spawn heavy lists. I should be used to this considering chaos have always been at the bottom of the pile since the 3.5 dex. Now I remember why I moved over to the Horus Heresy years ago. 

 

Does this mean you are or aren't playing against NuMarines with you chaos in 40K?

 

Oh I am still playing against them, never turned downa challenge before and I wont now, its not the Chaos way... 

I just know its gonna be a ball ache and not much fun, so pretty much the same as always. :lol:

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

 

 

 

As for the Knight, I prefer Dual Thermal with an Icarus Autocannon and Helm of Warp Sight. Strips the Icarus of all of its mods and turns it into a useful weapon overall (and a great target for Daemonic Surge), while still retaining effectiveness against fliers and stealth shenanigans, and Dual Thermal with Trail of Destruction can really do a number on any sort of Marine army in my experience. It effectively eliminates cover as an issue because of the modifiers and retaining decent firepower because you're rolling 2D6 for shot count regardless of unit size now. Backed up by the Icarus and a Heavy Stubber, it becomes flexible and interesting. Plus, most importantly, it's CHEAP.

 

For outranging them, Dual Battle Cannon + Ironstorm works wonders given the average firepower and the Knight's mobility and height. Nowhere to hide and difficult to counter.

 

Avenger is the best all around choice, but for specializing in murdering the types of Primaris lists I usually see (lots of direct fire with heavy armor support), I prefer the other two. Of course, I still usually have a Dual Avenger in my army if I can afford the points.

 

 

I think the dual Thermal is a good choice as well.. very economical but that D6 is a killer, but it's great for the points. I still prefer the idea of putting the Avenger with ignoring modifiers for probably the best all arounder including Eldar Airshow. But since we're talking CSM vs NuMarines....

 

I don't play Red Corsairs anymore. I still have my old models, but this is the choice people seem to go with for allying in Chaos Knights. I painted up all my new stuff as Black Legion... I actually won best painted an ITC event so it's really hard for me to consider repainting.

 

Outside of Knights, the Foregworld stuff still has options that keep the Legion keyword, and therefore give Black Legion the ability to juice up a Kytan, or something of that nature. Even the Dark Apostle can apply litanies on him... and that would include Deredeo's and Conptemptors etc

Yes the Corsairs are very good, but IMO the BL's bag of tricks is much deeper with all of their Vigilus stuff and they can get CP regen without losing out on other Warlord Traits, plus they hit like a freight train against Imperial armies if properly built.

Edited September 30, 2019 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Prot]

I'm not really looking forward to fighting Iron Hands with my DG in the future, especially since I run a mostly fluffy mono Death Guard army, not even Nurgle Daemons as allies, and I can't help but feel that with the combination of their characters and rules they vehicles are just better than DG's best units, which are the PBCs and the Drones.

An iron hands army tied for first at my tournament this weekend (I took 6th). The last game he tied against a Tau army (the one I lost to). They were pretty nasty from what I got see. I actually like facing Marines, because DytFE kicks in and I miss that against other armies.

Congratulations on the great finish. Deathguard, I think, are one of the better matches for NuMarines. Iron Hands in particular are super survivable, but necessarily give out more damage than a lot of other marines. DG can always waltz in there and roll a fistful of 5+ DR rolls and put a kink in anyone’s plans. I truly miss my DG for tournament and all around play.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for the Knight, I prefer Dual Thermal with an Icarus Autocannon and Helm of Warp Sight. Strips the Icarus of all of its mods and turns it into a useful weapon overall (and a great target for Daemonic Surge), while still retaining effectiveness against fliers and stealth shenanigans, and Dual Thermal with Trail of Destruction can really do a number on any sort of Marine army in my experience. It effectively eliminates cover as an issue because of the modifiers and retaining decent firepower because you're rolling 2D6 for shot count regardless of unit size now. Backed up by the Icarus and a Heavy Stubber, it becomes flexible and interesting. Plus, most importantly, it's CHEAP.

For outranging them, Dual Battle Cannon + Ironstorm works wonders given the average firepower and the Knight's mobility and height. Nowhere to hide and difficult to counter.

Avenger is the best all around choice, but for specializing in murdering the types of Primaris lists I usually see (lots of direct fire with heavy armor support), I prefer the other two. Of course, I still usually have a Dual Avenger in my army if I can afford the points.

 

I don't play Red Corsairs anymore. I still have my old models, but this is the choice people seem to go with for allying in Chaos Knights. I painted up all my new stuff as Black Legion... I actually won best painted an ITC event so it's really hard for me to consider repainting.

 

Yes the Corsairs are very good, but IMO the BL's bag of tricks is much deeper with all of their Vigilus stuff and they can get CP regen without losing out on other Warlord Traits, plus they hit like a freight train against Imperial armies if properly built.

Well I don’t know about that. I haven’t had much luck with my BL in competitive play, but I don’t take FW stuff. That said I think close combat fir chaos is looking a little better than gunline and Red Corsairs can close the gap fast, gain bonus cp, advance and charge making better use of units like Possessed, bikers etc than most, and eve. Disco Lords.

 

I found my BL get shredded if I go too shooty against IG especially (that ridiculous Strategem!) and Nu Marines easily out shoot me. Assault wise BL don’t have a lot of tricks that just aren’t trumped by Flawless Host or RCs. For a while I was doing turn 1 summoning of Contorted Epitomy but everyone started catching on... it’s a bit difficult and the white scars can do it far easier with a relic.

 

I’m trying to rely on a mix of old and new units. I don’t rely near as much on Disco Lords anymore. I try to bring Termies in, and I alternate bikes 8n and out , but Red Corsairs probably suit that a lot better.

 

I’ve also tried a more mobile platform that brings in Oblits mid game for main hard target fire support. But it’s really hard to do with infantry ow because of NuMarines. This is why I am thinking of 3 Vindicators or Preds with Abe and Apostle giving 5++. Or... Knights. I’m a bit stuck at the moment.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Prot

[Slave to Darkness]

Actually I have another Vindicator somewhere, I might start running two with my Slaaneshii boys, think that would be worth trying?

[Prot]

Actually I have another Vindicator somewhere, I might start running two with my Slaaneshii boys, think that would be worth trying?

Well I’m running 3 just in case I get a chance to get the Strategem off but I keep saying the Vindicators aren’t that horrible anymore with the change to D6 shots and T8 is respectable. With an invuln Aura this is what I’m trying.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

I'm not really looking forward to fighting Iron Hands with my DG in the future, especially since I run a mostly fluffy mono Death Guard army, not even Nurgle Daemons as allies, and I can't help but feel that with the combination of their characters and rules they vehicles are just better than DG's best units, which are the PBCs and the Drones.

An iron hands army tied for first at my tournament this weekend (I took 6th). The last game he tied against a Tau army (the one I lost to). They were pretty nasty from what I got see. I actually like facing Marines, because DytFE kicks in and I miss that against other armies.

Congratulations on the great finish. Deathguard, I think, are one of the better matches for NuMarines. Iron Hands in particular are super survivable, but necessarily give out more damage than a lot of other marines. DG can always waltz in there and roll a fistful of 5+ DR rolls and put a kink in anyone’s plans. I truly miss my DG for tournament and all around play.

 

 

 

 

As for the Knight, I prefer Dual Thermal with an Icarus Autocannon and Helm of Warp Sight. Strips the Icarus of all of its mods and turns it into a useful weapon overall (and a great target for Daemonic Surge), while still retaining effectiveness against fliers and stealth shenanigans, and Dual Thermal with Trail of Destruction can really do a number on any sort of Marine army in my experience. It effectively eliminates cover as an issue because of the modifiers and retaining decent firepower because you're rolling 2D6 for shot count regardless of unit size now. Backed up by the Icarus and a Heavy Stubber, it becomes flexible and interesting. Plus, most importantly, it's CHEAP.

For outranging them, Dual Battle Cannon + Ironstorm works wonders given the average firepower and the Knight's mobility and height. Nowhere to hide and difficult to counter.

Avenger is the best all around choice, but for specializing in murdering the types of Primaris lists I usually see (lots of direct fire with heavy armor support), I prefer the other two. Of course, I still usually have a Dual Avenger in my army if I can afford the points.

I don't play Red Corsairs anymore. I still have my old models, but this is the choice people seem to go with for allying in Chaos Knights. I painted up all my new stuff as Black Legion... I actually won best painted an ITC event so it's really hard for me to consider repainting.

 

Yes the Corsairs are very good, but IMO the BL's bag of tricks is much deeper with all of their Vigilus stuff and they can get CP regen without losing out on other Warlord Traits, plus they hit like a freight train against Imperial armies if properly built.

Well I don’t know about that. I haven’t had much luck with my BL in competitive play, but I don’t take FW stuff. That said I think close combat fir chaos is looking a little better than gunline and Red Corsairs can close the gap fast, gain bonus cp, advance and charge making better use of units like Possessed, bikers etc than most, and eve. Disco Lords.

 

I found my BL get shredded if I go too shooty against IG especially (that ridiculous Strategem!) and Nu Marines easily out shoot me. Assault wise BL don’t have a lot of tricks that just aren’t trumped by Flawless Host or RCs. For a while I was doing turn 1 summoning of Contorted Epitomy but everyone started catching on... it’s a bit difficult and the white scars can do it far easier with a relic.

 

I’m trying to rely on a mix of old and new units. I don’t rely near as much on Disco Lords anymore. I try to bring Termies in, and I alternate bikes 8n and out , but Red Corsairs probably suit that a lot better.

 

I’ve also tried a more mobile platform that brings in Oblits mid game for main hard target fire support. But it’s really hard to do with infantry ow because of NuMarines. This is why I am thinking of 3 Vindicators or Preds with Abe and Apostle giving 5++. Or... Knights. I’m a bit stuck at the moment

I've seen BL get quite nasty with blocks of Daemon Engines and dropping Oblits boosted by Infernal Power, Cursed Earth, and other buffs, with a Chainlord waiting to exploit openings. Of course, some of the nastiest for this are Decimators, which are FW, but you can do it with Forgefiends too if you stack the auras up right. There was also a BL Dark Apostle/Possessed list that won a tourney somewhere in the US a few months ago (can't remember where). However, that strategy can go south quick if you start blowing your Prayer/Psychic rolls too often and that list didn't have to deal with modern Iron Hands.

 

Triple Vindi is interesting under their new rules. Might try it this weekend with Iron Warriors. The smoothing effect of 3d6 all against the same target might actually make it more effective to reserve a CP for a single shot count or damage reroll rather than Linebreaker Bombardment, depending on how many units would be near a potential impact point. You might want to do a Turn 1 summon of a Herald ot Tzeentch for Gaze of Fate to get another reroll in there.

 

 

[MegaVolt87]

 

Actually I have another Vindicator somewhere, I might start running two with my Slaaneshii boys, think that would be worth trying?

Well I’m running 3 just in case I get a chance to get the Strategem off but I keep saying the Vindicators aren’t that horrible anymore with the change to D6 shots and T8 is respectable. With an invuln Aura this is what I’m trying.

 

 

Out of interest has anyone done the math on the vindi change with three normal shooting VS with the linebreaker stratagem? I wonder if vindi points will go up in the upcomming CA, which I am waiting for. 

[BlueBiscuit Raider]

 

I'm not really looking forward to fighting Iron Hands with my DG in the future, especially since I run a mostly fluffy mono Death Guard army, not even Nurgle Daemons as allies, and I can't help but feel that with the combination of their characters and rules they vehicles are just better than DG's best units, which are the PBCs and the Drones.

An iron hands army tied for first at my tournament this weekend (I took 6th). The last game he tied against a Tau army (the one I lost to). They were pretty nasty from what I got see. I actually like facing Marines, because DytFE kicks in and I miss that against other armies.

Congratulations on the great finish. Deathguard, I think, are one of the better matches for NuMarines. Iron Hands in particular are super survivable, but necessarily give out more damage than a lot of other marines. DG can always waltz in there and roll a fistful of 5+ DR rolls and put a kink in anyone’s plans. I truly miss my DG for tournament and all around play.

 

 

 

 

As for the Knight, I prefer Dual Thermal with an Icarus Autocannon and Helm of Warp Sight. Strips the Icarus of all of its mods and turns it into a useful weapon overall (and a great target for Daemonic Surge), while still retaining effectiveness against fliers and stealth shenanigans, and Dual Thermal with Trail of Destruction can really do a number on any sort of Marine army in my experience. It effectively eliminates cover as an issue because of the modifiers and retaining decent firepower because you're rolling 2D6 for shot count regardless of unit size now. Backed up by the Icarus and a Heavy Stubber, it becomes flexible and interesting. Plus, most importantly, it's CHEAP.

For outranging them, Dual Battle Cannon + Ironstorm works wonders given the average firepower and the Knight's mobility and height. Nowhere to hide and difficult to counter.

Avenger is the best all around choice, but for specializing in murdering the types of Primaris lists I usually see (lots of direct fire with heavy armor support), I prefer the other two. Of course, I still usually have a Dual Avenger in my army if I can afford the points.

I don't play Red Corsairs anymore. I still have my old models, but this is the choice people seem to go with for allying in Chaos Knights. I painted up all my new stuff as Black Legion... I actually won best painted an ITC event so it's really hard for me to consider repainting.

 

Yes the Corsairs are very good, but IMO the BL's bag of tricks is much deeper with all of their Vigilus stuff and they can get CP regen without losing out on other Warlord Traits, plus they hit like a freight train against Imperial armies if properly built.

Well I don’t know about that. I haven’t had much luck with my BL in competitive play, but I don’t take FW stuff. That said I think close combat fir chaos is looking a little better than gunline and Red Corsairs can close the gap fast, gain bonus cp, advance and charge making better use of units like Possessed, bikers etc than most, and eve. Disco Lords.

 

I found my BL get shredded if I go too shooty against IG especially (that ridiculous Strategem!) and Nu Marines easily out shoot me. Assault wise BL don’t have a lot of tricks that just aren’t trumped by Flawless Host or RCs. For a while I was doing turn 1 summoning of Contorted Epitomy but everyone started catching on... it’s a bit difficult and the white scars can do it far easier with a relic.

 

I’m trying to rely on a mix of old and new units. I don’t rely near as much on Disco Lords anymore. I try to bring Termies in, and I alternate bikes 8n and out , but Red Corsairs probably suit that a lot better.

 

I’ve also tried a more mobile platform that brings in Oblits mid game for main hard target fire support. But it’s really hard to do with infantry ow because of NuMarines. This is why I am thinking of 3 Vindicators or Preds with Abe and Apostle giving 5++. Or... Knights. I’m a bit stuck at the moment.

 

I'm expecting to have a tough time against Iron Hands with my DG because while we may be durable, so are they, and most importantly short of FW Dreadnought Death Guard doesn't really hit that hard, while the counterpunch in the IH shooting phase is gonna ruin something, meaning that they can, sadly, out-attrition us very well.

[Prot]

I don't care how resilient IH are, if Mort gets in there, there's going to be a lot of Leviathan parts spread out on the battle field. You just have to get him there. The army is super potent, but the thread is meant to discuss the overall problem... which is CSM being largely out classed in a lot of categories with this change. So we have to dig deep to find the things that still make up some lost ground. 

 

I think most of those are coming from Psychics (A mortal wound is a mortal wound). Damage 2 shooting. (Scorpius keeps coming up.), and perhaps a lot of vehicles. 

 

I still like my Havocs and every list I make has a large push of shooting from them, and speed around the edges to force tough decisions. But now the Havocs always start in Rhino's. Just far too easy for NuMarines to sack Infantry. Tagging them in Close combat (where they don't want to be) is important. Leviathans are terrible in CC unless specifically out fitted for it. You have to figure out how to get there, without sacrificing your game plan. 

 

At least that's what I think. In your case (DG) make sure you're Warp Timing Mort across the board and his entourage of personal guard were something I used a lot of before this codex came out (circa last year). I think they're critical with Mort. 

 

The rest of us... I don't know yet. Still working on it. It just might be a case of me putting the army away for a while, because in my findings this space marine codex is a double whammy. It not only makes CSM seem even more irrelevant as a whole, but it -forces- other armies, xenos, etc to be more diligent in list prepping to face marines. 

[Aothaine]

Hey Prot,

 

You don't think Rhino rushing with Helbrutes, Havocs and Berzerkers wouldn't work? Maybe also have 2-3 Heldrakes as well to help tie up shooty elements of enemy units?

 

Not sure on points but maybe something like this?

 

[HQ] Khârn

[HQ] Dark Apostle

 

[T] Berzerker x5

[T] Berzerker x5

[T] Berzerker x5

[T] Berzerker x5

 

[HS] Havoc Squad

- Chaincannon x2, Lascannon x2

 

[HS] Havoc Squad

- Chaincannon x2, Lascannon x2

 

[HS] Havoc Squad

- Chaincannon x2, Lascannon x2

 

Rhino x4 (missile pod + storm bolter)

 

Heldrake x2-3 (Bale Flamer)

 

Dunno, maybe this is over 2k? Not sure. What do you think? This will work or no?

 

you could potentially change the lascannons to autocannons and try and squeeze in 2-3 predators with quad lascannons instead of the Heldrakes. But I think the Heldrakes are the better option.

Edited October 1, 2019 by Aothaine

[Special Officer Doofy]

In your case (DG) make sure you're Warp Timing Mort across the board and his entourage of personal guard were something I used a lot of before this codex came out (circa last year). I think they're critical with Mort.

 

If the IH go first Mort will not still be alive unless you invest into body guards, and then that makes Mort cost way more then his 470pts. Not to mention the bodyguards move almost a 1/3 of his rate. And you can't get warptime in a mono death guard army unless you do index shenanigans, which won't last forever. I hate that to even be close to fair we have to take Daemon screens and thousand son's psychic support HQ. I rather just get tabled at this point then cheese at that level haha.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

In your case (DG) make sure you're Warp Timing Mort across the board and his entourage of personal guard were something I used a lot of before this codex came out (circa last year). I think they're critical with Mort.

 

If the IH go first Mort will not still be alive unless you invest into body guards, and then that makes Mort cost way more then his 470pts. Not to mention the bodyguards move almost a 1/3 of his rate. And you can't get warptime in a mono death guard army unless you do index shenanigans, which won't last forever. I hate that to even be close to fair we have to take Daemon screens and thousand son's psychic support HQ. I rather just get tabled at this point then cheese at that level haha.

Wait. The IH didn't become more lethal, they became more mobile and more durable. All those bonuses to AP to Heavy weapons doesn't matter to Mort because he has a good Invulnerable save, and the RR1s on Heavies just means they're not castling around a Captain.

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

 

In your case (DG) make sure you're Warp Timing Mort across the board and his entourage of personal guard were something I used a lot of before this codex came out (circa last year). I think they're critical with Mort.

 

If the IH go first Mort will not still be alive unless you invest into body guards, and then that makes Mort cost way more then his 470pts. Not to mention the bodyguards move almost a 1/3 of his rate. And you can't get warptime in a mono death guard army unless you do index shenanigans, which won't last forever. I hate that to even be close to fair we have to take Daemon screens and thousand son's psychic support HQ. I rather just get tabled at this point then cheese at that level haha.

Wait. The IH didn't become more lethal, they became more mobile and more durable. All those bonuses to AP to Heavy weapons doesn't matter to Mort because he has a good Invulnerable save, and the RR1s on Heavies just means they're not castling around a Captain.

I was meaning more so Mortarion vs any shooty list, that's his issue. High risk vs high reward. If you can get him in assault with stuff he's awesome but most of the time I find he gets shot off the table or taken down a bracket. IH were the examples people were using, should have said any shooty space marine chapter. Just alot of the IH builds I see use lots of tank and dreads because of their chapter tactics, Mortarion dies to anti tank being only T7. Not trying to hate on space marines, I'm happy with what they did, just not happy how it will take months or longer for chaos to catch up, if they even do. Was not trying to IH hate, if I played loyalist that's who I would play as.

 

Edit: Wait. The IH did become more lethal. Hitting on overwatch 5's is more shots against people that charge you (ex: Mortarion). Being able to move and shoot heavys without penalty and with re rolls mean you can move your units back and shoot without penalty, making some units take longer to get into melee or range with you giving you more and shots on them without any penalty and a reroll. And the vehicles wound bracket not dropping as fast keeps them lethal longer (not more durable) with higher accuracy. They are definately more lethal. Being more mobile and more durable makes them more lethal. Definitions of lethal: capable of causing death, gravely damaging or destructive, very potent or effective. Check, check and check. Maybe we have different definitions of lethal.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Putrid Choir

[Closet Skeleton]

Not really lookin forward to playing against Nu-Mehreenz, I already handicap myself by not using the obvious units (Disco Lords, Dinobots etc) too expensive in real world money and :cussin awfull sculpts. Guess Im just gonna struggle with my Possessed and Spawn heavy lists. I should be used to this considering chaos have always been at the bottom of the pile since the 3.5 dex. Now I remember why I moved over to the Horus Heresy years ago. 

 

Dinobots are bad and I've never seen one outside of a fluffy khorne list.

[techsoldaten]

I'm playtesting a Daemon Primarch list, faced a Ultramarines army last night. Wanted to talk about how that played out.

 

This is the same list I've played against a couple times before, got tabled once and lost the other game. It has Triple Repulsors, which creates this no-man's land in the middle of the table. I really wanted to see what happens when you close in on Primaris armies quickly and how they stand up to elite close combat before the Assault doctrine kicks in. I was al little concerned about Ultramarines tactics but wanted to see how it goes.

 

I'm still learning this army and made some mistakes without defeating myself. My list included the following:

 

Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment

Mortarion

 

Supreme Command Detachment
Magnus, Ahriman, Daemon Prince, Sorcerer on Disc, Sicaran

 

Battalion Detachment
2x Poxbringer, 2x 3x Nurglings, 23x Plaguebearers
 

The game went by quickly, it took just over an hour. Here's a breakdown of what happened turn by turn.

 

- First turn, my side moved up the board. During the psychic phase, he lost an Intercessor squad to smites / Infernal Gateway and took some wounds on a Repulsor. Mortarion and the Sicaran put some wounds on Repulsors in the shooting phase, and Magnus was able to destroy one Repulsor in cc.

 

- In response, he put all his shooting into the Primarchs. Devastator doctrine was still in effect, which worked against him because the majority of guns in his army were Bolt Rifles. He put 12 wounds into Magnus but Mortation tanked a ton of damage - he might have taken 3 wounds. The fact he split his fire between the Primarchs meant neither died.

 

- Second turn, my army moved up, killed another Intercessor squad in the Psychic phase, hammered another Repulsor in the shooting phase, and got charges off with Magnus, Mortarion and the Daemon Prince. While I didn't destroy anything in the fight phase, his tanks were down to a couple wounds a piece and he lost a lot of Primaris Marines. This was the first point where I realized I made a mistake - I could have killed one of the Repulsors if I'd positioned Ahriman a little different.

 

- In response, he fell back and started shooting. This is where not destroying the Repulsors cost me, they killed Magnus and put some wounds on Ahriman. Intercessors and a Lieutenant charged the Daemon Prince, killing it. He also made a mistake, forgetting to switch to tactical doctrine. The only heavy weapons he had were on the Redemptor and that wasn't doing much for him.

 

- Third turn, both Repulsors were destroyed in the Psychic phase, 2 more Intercessor squads died in the shooting phase, and Mortation was able to kill his Captain in the fight phase. 

 

- In response, he Librarian used Null Zone and Smite on Mortation, taking away his invul and leaving him with 2 wounds. The Librarian and the Lieutenant charged Mortation, doing no damage but losing the Lieutenant in the process.

 

- The rest of the game happened like this: Mortarion killed himself with a failed psychic test. Ahriman and the Sorcerer battled it out with the Redemptor and both died in close combat. The Sicaran was able to kill the Redemptor and his remaining Intercessors were able to kill one Nurgling squad before he conceeded. At the end of the game, he was pissed off and didn't understand why the Repulsors didn't do their job.

 

I'm still processing everything that happened, but I feel like I learned something about fighting NuMarines that matters for every Chaos army.

 

- First off, I was facing a Repulsor spam list. They had outstanding shooting and accounted for about half the points in his list. Something I'm starting to notice, NuMarine spam lists are always good at one part of the game. Figure out what those units are and go after them first, the rest of the army isn't going to have as much impact (even if it looks scarier.) My opponent likes to put his Repulsors out in front to create a no-man's land because of all their shots. I don't know if this is common amongst NuMarine players, but watch for it when it happens.

 

- Second, a good psychic game was very important and should be part of most Chaos armies. He had a lot of 5-man Intercessor squads, reducing them to 3 models before I charged meant I was destroying units. In previous games, he had some units hanging around with a single model, there was some of that this game and it cost me. It's always better to destroy a unit completely than to reduce it to a couple wounds and MWs through psychic is the simplest way to make that happen. The biggest thing I could have done better is position my psykers so those tanks were the closest unit for smites.

 

- Third, board control was important. At the start of the third turn, he had a better army than me - more units, more firepower, more wounds, better buff auras. But he was mostly pinned in his deployment zone until turn 4. Even if he killed all my HQs, I was far enough ahead in points and had such great position with my infantry he probably would have lost. His Intercessor squads were all 5 man, he didn't have a way to spread out all over the board and stay in aura range of his HQs. When you see that, try to take advantage of it.

 

- Fourth, distractions matter. Going back to a previous game, he was taking out all my CSMs / Cultists / Dreadnoughts the first couple turns. It left me in a position where I couldn't do much with Obliterators or Bloodletter Bombs. This time, he had to kill Primarchs with great saving throws before he could get at the rest of my (small) army. Mortarion and Magnus tanked a lot of shots from his Ironhail Heavy Stubbers and Bolt Rifles, I don't think he did a single wound with them. Anything that can shrug off small arms is key to fighting Primaris, it takes away a lot of their advantages.

 

- Fifth, that Sicaran was never wounded. Like most armies, NuMarines are really vulnerable to indirect fire and units they can't target. They heavily rely on footslogging and using that against them makes a huge difference. At the end of the game, he might have been able to kill my big Plaguebearer unit but the Sicaran would have punished him for trying. There's only a small number of indirect fire units available to Chaos - Scorpius, R&H Mortars, R&H Earthshakers, etc - but they probably should play a bigger role in lists. In lieu of those - weapons with long range make a big difference.

 

Finally, one thing that would have made my list better would be getting Mortation into close combat sooner. I know you can do that with one of those trees, would love to hear ideas on how to make that happen more easily.

Edited October 2, 2019 by techsoldaten

[Prot]

techsoldaten:

 

To quote myself:

I don't care how resilient IH are, if Mort gets in there, there's going to be a lot of Leviathan parts spread out on the battle field. You just have to get him there. The army is super potent, but the thread is meant to discuss the overall problem... which is CSM being largely out classed in a lot of categories with this change. So we have to dig deep to find the things that still make up some lost ground. 

 

I think most of those are coming from Psychics (A mortal wound is a mortal wound). Damage 2 shooting. (Scorpius keeps coming up.), and perhaps a lot of vehicles. 

 

I still like my Havocs and every list I make has a large push of shooting from them, and speed around the edges to force tough decisions. But now the Havocs always start in Rhino's. Just far too easy for NuMarines to sack Infantry. Tagging them in Close combat (where they don't want to be) is important. Leviathans are terrible in CC unless specifically out fitted for it. You have to figure out how to get there, without sacrificing your game plan. 

 

At least that's what I think. In your case (DG) make sure you're Warp Timing Mort across the board and his entourage of personal guard were something I used a lot of before this codex came out (circa last year). I think they're critical with Mort. 

 

The rest of us... I don't know yet. Still working on it. It just might be a case of me putting the army away for a while, because in my findings this space marine codex is a double whammy. It not only makes CSM seem even more irrelevant as a whole, but it -forces- other armies, xenos, etc to be more diligent in list prepping to face marines. 

 

I'm not trying to pat myself on the back. It's a learning experience for all of us, and I keep saying I play Ultra's so I see the other side of the fence.

 

I think you're on the right track. If that's the method you want to get there, that's fine. But you have the ingredients there without leaving yourself too open to other xenos lists. You've (unfortunately but by necessity) removed most marines from the army. You've reduced infantry count. You've INCREASED the monster/vehicle type count instead, and you are much more capable of delivering Mortal Wounds, AND getting to your opponent for CC. 

 

I still think -some- marine armies are going to be better at CC than others, BUT for the most part they don't want to be there, and Chaos is one of the few that can really excel in that area.

 

About your game:

 

- Definitely try to box in Repulsors. I know they have fly, but on few wounds they won't fly far. 

- Definitely focus 1 Repulsor at a time in assault. Try not to mutli assault (Force him to use the overwatch Strat).

 

Killing one Repulsor a turn is better in this instance because a severely damaged Repulsor can be mitigated with the Chapter Master Aura, AND in overwatch it doesn't matter how damaged it is. It's going to sting like heck if you leave 3 'mostly damaged" repulsors overwatching you.

 

- Definitely position for Mortal Wounds. I think aside from the normal powers for this, Infernal Gateway is a go to for these aura armies.

 

Basically speaking all NuMarines are exceptional at killing infantry, and you took that away from him without even a TFC to reach your gribblies. 

 

Keep in mind, depending on the format, you are owning the real estate in this matchup. Until he deals with Smash Bro's and psychic core, he can't really spread too thin. He's got to guard his back edge. This does give you a few moments to capitalize on scoring. 

 

- Did he combine overwatch you? I know in my 2 repulsor/Centurion list, I always make sure it's very probable I can combine all three into overwatch with Calgar or a Chapter Master near by. 

 

Glad to hear you had a better experience. 

[Aothaine]

I'm playtesting a Daemon Primarch list, faced a Ultramarines army last night. Wanted to talk about how that played out.

 

Finally, one thing that would have made my list better would be getting Mortation into close combat sooner. I know you can do that with one of those trees, would love to hear ideas on how to make that happen more easily.

 

Excellent write up! Thank you for sharing your battle experience. Something else we need to think about is what are other units that we can use as a distraction carnifex. In the place of the primarchs we could potentially use Knights and Daemon Princes. They might not be as resiliant though unless you're running Death Guard or Nurgle/Tzeentch allies.

 

This makes be feel that my Devastator/Berserker/Helbrute list will actually work pretty decently.