Chaos vs. New Marines

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

I'm playtesting a Daemon Primarch list, faced a Ultramarines army last night. Wanted to talk about how that played out.

 

Finally, one thing that would have made my list better would be getting Mortation into close combat sooner. I know you can do that with one of those trees, would love to hear ideas on how to make that happen more easily.

 

Excellent write up! Thank you for sharing your battle experience. Something else we need to think about is what are other units that we can use as a distraction carnifex. In the place of the primarchs we could potentially use Knights and Daemon Princes. They might not be as resiliant though unless you're running Death Guard or Nurgle/Tzeentch allies.

 

This makes be feel that my Devastator/Berserker/Helbrute list will actually work pretty decently. 

 

Clogging the battlefield with distractions that can soak hilarious amounts of bolter fire and are good at killing multiwound infantry will definitely be key. Disco Lords, Maulerfiends, Drakes, Brutes, Contemptors, Vindicators, etc. , as will Psychic damage output and debuffs. Loyalist powers don't usually measure up to ours and we have far more psychic datasheets in our codex.

 

Rhinos and Vindicators make stellar Overwatch sinks to allow units behind to charge.

 

Second part is mechanized infantry or VERY carefully calibrated MEQ horde units with movement buffs and lots of synergies. Examples:

 

Benediction of Darkness + Miasma of Pestilence on a 20 man Black Legion Plague Marine unit that keeps Advancing and laying down Plasma and Bolter shots, while Warp Timing to double its movement until "It's Flail Time!!" Merciless Fighters + Hateful Assault FTW.

 

10 man brick of Night Lord Nurgle Terminators pushing forward with Benediction, Miasma, and In Midnight Clad.

 

Alpha Legion Berzerkers w/Benediction and Illusory Supplication from double Apostles all thrown forward via Stratagem to clear out pesky Infiltrators.

 

Emperor's Children Rhino full of Chainaxe/Combi-bolter Chosen led by decked out Master of Executions (Elixir/Flames of Spite/Excess of Violence at the ready) and an Exalted Champion.

 

Good old fashioned Plas/Combi-Plas 5-man CSM squads double-stacked in Rhinos w/ Double Combi-Bolters and Havoc Launchers.

 

Rhino w/2x5 Iron Warriors Slaanesh Havocs, 4x Chaincannon, 1x Plasma Gun in each. Bunker up with Prepared Positions/Apostle Buffs/Noctilith Crown. Exit vehicle, march forward, remove screens while ignoring cover saves.

 

Some of this may be insane in a bad way, some in a good way, but it should provoke some thought about exploiting the Threat Saturation/Buff Combo ideas available.

Edited October 2, 2019 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[techsoldaten]

 

 

I'm playtesting a Daemon Primarch list, faced a Ultramarines army last night. Wanted to talk about how that played out.

 

Finally, one thing that would have made my list better would be getting Mortation into close combat sooner. I know you can do that with one of those trees, would love to hear ideas on how to make that happen more easily.

 

Excellent write up! Thank you for sharing your battle experience. Something else we need to think about is what are other units that we can use as a distraction carnifex. In the place of the primarchs we could potentially use Knights and Daemon Princes. They might not be as resiliant though unless you're running Death Guard or Nurgle/Tzeentch allies.

 

This makes be feel that my Devastator/Berserker/Helbrute list will actually work pretty decently. 

 

Clogging the battlefield with distractions that can soak hilarious amounts of bolter fire and are good at killing multiwound infantry will definitely be key. Disco Lords, Maulerfiends, Drakes, Brutes, Contemptors, Vindicators, etc. , as will Psychic damage output and debuffs. Loyalist powers don't usually measure up to ours and we have far more psychic datasheets in our codex.

 

Rhinos and Vindicators make stellar Overwatch sinks to allow units behind to charge.

 

Second part is mechanized infantry or VERY carefully calibrated MEQ horde units with movement buffs and lots of synergies. Examples:

 

Benediction of Darkness + Miasma of Pestilence on a 20 man Black Legion Plague Marine unit that keeps Advancing and laying down Plasma and Bolter shots, while Warp Timing to double its movement until "It's Flail Time!!" Merciless Fighters + Hateful Assault FTW.

 

10 man brick of Night Lord Nurgle Terminators pushing forward with Benediction, Miasma, and In Midnight Clad.

 

Alpha Legion Berzerkers w/Benediction and Illusory Supplication from double Apostles all thrown forward via Stratagem to clear out pesky Infiltrators.

 

Emperor's Children Rhino full of Chainaxe/Combi-bolter Chosen led by decked out Master of Executions (Elixir/Flames of Spite/Excess of Violence at the ready) and an Exalted Champion.

 

Good old fashioned Plas/Combi-Plas 5-man CSM squads double-stacked in Rhinos w/ Double Combi-Bolters and Havoc Launchers.

 

Rhino w/2x5 Iron Warriors Slaanesh Havocs, 4x Chaincannon, 1x Plasma Gun in each. Bunker up with Prepared Positions/Apostle Buffs/Noctilith Crown. Exit vehicle, march forward, remove screens while ignoring cover saves.

 

Some of this may be insane in a bad way, some in a good way, but it should provoke some thought about exploiting the Threat Saturation/Buff Combo ideas available.

 

 

Thanks for the message. I agree with about half of this.

 

There are 3 simple truths when it comes to NuMarines.

 

- Primaris are lawnmowers against infantry.

 

- Repulsors have way too much firepower.

 

- Infiltrators and Drop Pods make deep strike very hard to do.

 

After about 10 games, I'm starting to see how to win against them with Chaos. While other factors are important, accounting for these is the best place to start.

 

Ultimately, NuMarines are still an elite army that loses significant potential each time a unit is destroyed. It just takes more work to make it happen. The units that have been getting work done for me fit into a tight set of categories.

 

- High T units with good invul saves.

 

- Psykers that dish mortal wounds - especially to units you plan to charge.

 

- Long-range units, 36+ inches, with reroll auras.

 

- High mobility units that can disrupt board control.

 

- Indirect fire.

 

Conversely, the units that have gotten me tabled include the following.

 

- Infantry. NuMarines out range us with line troops which basically gives them a free round of shooting. The negative AP negates our saves to the point where it's not worth investing in lots of them.

 

- Helbrutes / Deredeos / Contemptors. Butcher Cannons don't have the range, the other guns aren't worth it.

 

- Deep Strikers. NuMarines have too many ways to stop them from landing in charge range.

 

- Daemon Engines, or at least Maulerfiends. They get bracketed too easily and don't dish enough damage when they get there.

 

- Codex Tanks. Our tanks are outclassed by a large margin, they become a points sink. This includes Rhinos. Some Forgeworld stuff works.

 

My Black Legion gunline and Daemon Primarch lists are really fun to play, but I'll continue to experiment and eventually settle on something more effective versus other factions. For right now, the units that really intrigue me as NuMarine killers looks like this.

 

- Daemon Primarchs

- Chaos Knight Despoilers and War Dogs

- TSons Sorcerors

- Abaddon

- Disco Lords

- Chainlords / Smashlords

- Daemon Princes

- R&H Mortar Teams

- R&H Earthshakers

- Lascannon Havocs

- Scorpius

- Sicarans

- Rapiers with Conversion Beamers / Lascannons

- Bikers

- Nurgle Daemons

- Tzeentch Daemons (for MW spam)

- Leviathans

- Venomcrawlers / Defilers / Lord of Skulls / Kytan

 

I know this list is all over the place and doesn't cover every unit that fits the profile. But most of them are points-efficient compared with other options, and it feels like there's a consistent NuMarine killer in there. The real question, for me, is how do you have a TAAC list like this. The things that work against NuMarines don't necessarily work against other armies.

[Prot]

Techsoldaten,

 

I've highlighted the ones I think are perhaps a bigger factor.

 

Thanks for the message. I agree with about half of this.

 

 

 

 

 

There are 3 simple truths when it comes to NuMarines.

 

- Primaris are lawnmowers against infantry.

 

- Repulsors have way too much firepower. +++ True, but a 3+ save is interesting. Also the down side I found is dedicating ALL your shots from a Repulsor often leads to a lot of missplaced shots (there's a ton of weird variety on a Repulsor) And of course when you get it down, it's a giant chunk of shooting gone.

 

- Infiltrators and Drop Pods make deep strike very hard to do.

 

After about 10 games, I'm starting to see how to win against them with Chaos. While other factors are important, accounting for these is the best place to start.

 

Ultimately, NuMarines are still an elite army that loses significant potential each time a unit is destroyed. It just takes more work to make it happen. The units that have been getting work done for me fit into a tight set of categories.

 

- High T units with good invul saves.

 

- Psykers that dish mortal wounds - especially to units you plan to charge.

 

- Long-range units, 36+ inches, with reroll auras.

 

- High mobility units that can disrupt board control.

 

- Indirect fire.

 

++ I would add Damage 2+ shooting will save you a lot of time. Anything.

 

 

 

As to 'good/bad' Chaos units:

 

Conversely, the units that have gotten me tabled include the following.

 

- Helbrutes / Deredeos / Contemptors. Butcher Cannons don't have the range, the other guns aren't worth it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Really? I had kind of started pulling out Helbrutes with my 5++ Litany Aura. I'm not entirely sold on Butcher Cannon Contemptors, but I am still a bit surprised to hear you say this, but I haven't tried them myself.

 

 

- Deep Strikers. NuMarines have too many ways to stop them from landing in charge range.

 

- Daemon Engines, or at least Maulerfiends. They get bracketed too easily and don't dish enough damage when they get there.

 

- Codex Tanks. Our tanks are outclassed by a large margin, they become a points sink. This includes Rhinos. Some Forgeworld stuff works.

 

 

 

The thing about Deep Strikes is (without Bikes/speed of some sort) you still need them. In tournament play if you can't threaten the backfield reliably or even make them think about covering their butts back there, it changes the game dynamic far too much for my liking. Make them think you have that threat. Sure they can plug holes, but make them do it, don't let them move aggressively all over the board towards you. Force them to worry about your 'possible' deep strike unit. 

 

Most Daemon Engines don't work I agree. Not at that level. I'm tired of being forced to use multiple support units and Disco Lords to make some of those units function properly. No thanks. I'm done with that.

 

Codex tanks? This is something I'm not sure about yet. I'm still playing a mix of infantry. But want to try my triple Vindicator list idea. Or Triple Pred. Even a Landraider. Lots of T8 is good against NuMarines since they rely (in general) on throwing lots of mid level stuff at you.  

 

Rhino's: I don't know if I'm ready to write them off yet. Not good... no, but some of our stuff is going to have to be infantry and I've now had games where my tin boxes double OR triple the life expectancy of my Infantry.

 

I'll just add:

 

- Cultists. This is rough. The 'cheap' troop is really a liability against quite a few NuMarine lists.

- Possessed. Those fun Possessed blob ideas? Nope. doesn't work at all now. You'll be making a bucket of saves regardless of buffs and math just catches up with you. No more massed infantry in the open.

- Berzerkers: I am on the fence. They keep getting cut from my lists. A glass hammer to be sure, but getting through Human Physiology and extra wounds with measily -1 AP... plus whatever you hit, you can be sure that those zerkers are going to get zonked.  Not sure on them.

 

Things I'm using again:

 

- Oblits. I hate their cost. It still feels too high for their random behavior. But what we -severely- lack is a RELIABLE way to put a decent volume of 2-3 Damage shots into: Aggressors, Centurions, Primaris, Repulsors, Eliminators, etc.  A (Chaos) bolter has never felt more useless to me.

 

- Rhino's. Yup I know. It's desperation at its finest. The Rhino is for scoring denial. A squad of marines, or worse a squad of Cultists is just auto points given up, even in cover. Nipple Bolters of Centurions with AP-1, Heavy Bolters with AP-2, dual firing Thunder Fire Cannons.... there's a lot of it. not to mention Aggressors. Rhino's delay the inevitable, but sometimes I get to strike from them.

 

- Landraiders. They need to be cheaper like marine LR's. (Did I miss a Chaos point tweak on these?) I am using these with Knights, and I am using them with tanks. I might make it -1 to hit, I might use it with a (cheap) Warpsmith. If Abe is around, and I even get slightly lucky, that whole Landraider punches back, gets repaired, and the contents are largely intact (10 Havocs!). It's a Honey Pot for Marines.

 

I know these aren't good ideas. I'm just trying anything now. Sorry I don't have better ideas right now.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

I don't want to wish list, but things I've -really- felt the effect of since NuMarines:

 

- I'd love a real flyer. (As a transport would be a huge bonus)

 

- The Chaos Space Marine needs real work

 

- GW needs to give up on their idea of rarely (if ever) tweaking a dataslate. Chaos is OVER LOADED with support stuff. Fix the inherent issues with base units so I don't 500 Points of "support" to make 1500 points of Mediocrity "functional". FIX THE DATASLATES. Stop taking the easy money on a single character sculpt that provides X Aura to reroll X dice to help broken unit Y work better.

 

- More on Dataslates: Admittedly GW said we were getting a second version of our codex, where Marines are Nu. But with that in mind when I play my Chaos I feel like I'm playing 7th ed, from unit choices, down to effectiveness. NuMarines feel like I'm playing 8.5 edition.  The feel of disparity here is about 1.5 editions.

 

It's a really tough match up for sure, but I still have a lot of faith in just trying to be a better player over taking the strongest army out there. (For what it's worth!)

[Excessus]

Firstly let me just state my appreciation of the people involved in this thread for keeping it civil and constructive. A situation like this with loyalists getting more and more candy would have ended in catastrophe in the olden days. Thank you. 

 

Secondly, what I read here above is a strange situation where both cultists and CSM are just as bad as troops? So what is reccomended? I haven't faced off against the new marines yet so I can't say, but following the discussion above, would a CSM squad with a heavy weapon in it be allright? 

 

Also, what about plasma chosen? A squad can take a ton of them and they're S8 D2 when overcharged, or are termies a better platform for them? 

[Aothaine]

Firstly let me just state my appreciation of the people involved in this thread for keeping it civil and constructive. A situation like this with loyalists getting more and more candy would have ended in catastrophe in the olden days. Thank you. 

 

Secondly, what I read here above is a strange situation where both cultists and CSM are just as bad as troops? So what is reccomended? I haven't faced off against the new marines yet so I can't say, but following the discussion above, would a CSM squad with a heavy weapon in it be allright? 

 

Also, what about plasma chosen? A squad can take a ton of them and they're S8 D2 when overcharged, or are termies a better platform for them? 

 

If you are playing for fun. Take what ever you want. Enjoy the game.

 

If you are playing for competitive play you are going to want Plague Marines. Now, the only way to get them as troop choices is to go with Death Guard which is an excellent army. But not everyone wants to run lists that are built around Death Guard. This is fine. You still have Thosand Sons to fall back on. Don't like them as well? Then you're kind of in a bind, but not entirely so. Alpha Legion is still a strong faction as well. But all of our legions are strong in their own ways. 

 

If I had to rank armies right now it would be the following though:

 

Death Guard -> Thousand Sons -> Alpha Legion -> World Eaters -> Emperor's Children -> Black Legion

 

Something else to keep in mind is that if you are playing competitively you will be souping lists. Don't expect to win tournaments frequently with mono lists. Besides, I would imagine that every battle with Chaos Space Marines would also be a battle with other Chaos factions as well. Can you run mono faction? Yup. Should you in a competitive environment? Up to you. Can you win with mono Chaos lists? When the stars align.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that the entire Death Guard line was just updated. Their models are fantastic and will last for years to come. Also, their line is so large now that I would be amazed if GW did not keep their rules updated as much as possible. I expect that when the new CSM rules start to roll out that Death Guard will be close to the front of the list. CSM main dex release with supplements Death Guard and Thousand Sons is what I feel will happen in 2020.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I'm surprised you rank Emperor's Children over Black Legion - is it the sonic hellbrute and ability to take noise marines for troops?  Because otherwise, EC doesn't really have anything going for it - its character, legion trait and relic are all rather mediocre (at best).

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Thanks for the message. I agree with about half of this.

 

There are 3 simple truths when it comes to NuMarines.

 

- Primaris are lawnmowers against infantry.

 

- Repulsors have way too much firepower.

 

- Infiltrators and Drop Pods make deep strike very hard to do.

 

After about 10 games, I'm starting to see how to win against them with Chaos. While other factors are important, accounting for these is the best place to start.

 

Ultimately, NuMarines are still an elite army that loses significant potential each time a unit is destroyed. It just takes more work to make it happen. The units that have been getting work done for me fit into a tight set of categories.

 

- High T units with good invul saves.

 

- Psykers that dish mortal wounds - especially to units you plan to charge.

 

- Long-range units, 36+ inches, with reroll auras.

 

- High mobility units that can disrupt board control.

 

- Indirect fire.

 

Conversely, the units that have gotten me tabled include the following.

 

- Infantry. NuMarines out range us with line troops which basically gives them a free round of shooting. The negative AP negates our saves to the point where it's not worth investing in lots of them.

 

- Helbrutes / Deredeos / Contemptors. Butcher Cannons don't have the range, the other guns aren't worth it.

 

- Deep Strikers. NuMarines have too many ways to stop them from landing in charge range.

 

- Daemon Engines, or at least Maulerfiends. They get bracketed too easily and don't dish enough damage when they get there.

 

- Codex Tanks. Our tanks are outclassed by a large margin, they become a points sink. This includes Rhinos. Some Forgeworld stuff works.

 

My Black Legion gunline and Daemon Primarch lists are really fun to play, but I'll continue to experiment and eventually settle on something more effective versus other factions. For right now, the units that really intrigue me as NuMarine killers looks like this.

 

- Daemon Primarchs

- Chaos Knight Despoilers and War Dogs

- TSons Sorcerors

- Abaddon

- Disco Lords

- Chainlords / Smashlords

- Daemon Princes

- R&H Mortar Teams

- R&H Earthshakers

- Lascannon Havocs

- Scorpius

- Sicarans

- Rapiers with Conversion Beamers / Lascannons

- Bikers

- Nurgle Daemons

- Tzeentch Daemons (for MW spam)

- Leviathans

- Venomcrawlers / Defilers / Lord of Skulls / Kytan

 

I know this list is all over the place and doesn't cover every unit that fits the profile. But most of them are points-efficient compared with other options, and it feels like there's a consistent NuMarine killer in there. The real question, for me, is how do you have a TAAC list like this. The things that work against NuMarines don't necessarily work against other armies.

 

Not sure about Nurgle Daemons. Been seeing a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth about Plaguebearer blobs just getting deleted, especially since Stalker bolters and/or Eliminators just rip the buffing characters off the board and Aggressors just overwound so badly that it doesn't matter. PB's don't have the ranged firepower to do anything before closing and don't have high Toughness or a good regular save, which makes them more vulnerable to things like Aggressors. Not sure, but it seems to me that it's not looking good for them.

 

As for other Infantry, I've marched 20 Rubricae into Deathwatch Intercessor spam with AP-1 Hellfire rounds wounding on 2+, triple Dakka Redemptors, rerolls from a Watch Master, Mission Tactics, etc. and come out fine. The key was to layer on buffs and use Warp Time give them no more than 1 round of shooting, plus maximize my own shooting before either teleporting away with the Dark Matter Crystal or charging. I also spread threat out with a Defiler, Forgefiend (which does actually work for TSons if you only use 1), and Mutalith (with a big "shoot me" sign on his head), plus the threat of 30 Tzaangors charging (which just meant that they died first, but they were just barely tough enough to keep fire off the real meat of my list). Once his lines were broken up by fire from the blobs and big guns, I had room to drop Scarabs in....and they did WORK against Primaris.

 

NuMarines are similar, with better AP but worse wounding overall, and different targets that you have to hit first (Infiltrators). I've seen batreps with large blocks of Plague Marines buffed to the gills doing OK by shrugging enough fire to get close and then just removing units with Blight Bombardment, charges, etc. 

 

However, important disclaimer: any more than ONE highly protected infantry blob is not worth it and you better have threat saturation in addition. Other troops should probably be mechanized MSU, double-stacked or with characters thrown in, preferably those that can either throw Psychic Powers or solo at least 5 Primaris at once.

 

It might also be important to revisit Meltaguns in light of things like the Ironstone, which can turn Plasma into paperweights.

I'm surprised you rank Emperor's Children over Black Legion - is it the sonic hellbrute and ability to take noise marines for troops?  Because otherwise, EC doesn't really have anything going for it - its character, legion trait and relic are all rather mediocre (at best).

Emperor's Children does have the insane Master of Executions Build with the Elixir, Flames of Spite, and Excess of Violence. That's all I can think of.

Edited October 3, 2019 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Khornestar]

A lot of resources to pour into a melee character with no invuln save, however.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

A lot of resources to pour into a melee character with no invuln save, however.

True, but at only 70 points, 1 CP for the Stratagem (perhaps 2 for VoTLW), and 1 VP for giving up Warlord, he will probably pay for himself when he explodes his first unit, depending on target.

[Khornestar]

Yeah, he certainly has potential for damage. Probably not too difficult to screen with chaff and such. Seems more like a gimmick to me, though it's not like we have lots of arrows in the quiver anyhow.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Juggernut

[techsoldaten]

Firstly let me just state my appreciation of the people involved in this thread for keeping it civil and constructive. A situation like this with loyalists getting more and more candy would have ended in catastrophe in the olden days. Thank you. 

 

Secondly, what I read here above is a strange situation where both cultists and CSM are just as bad as troops? So what is reccomended? I haven't faced off against the new marines yet so I can't say, but following the discussion above, would a CSM squad with a heavy weapon in it be allright? 

 

Also, what about plasma chosen? A squad can take a ton of them and they're S8 D2 when overcharged, or are termies a better platform for them? 

 

Noticed the same. Everyone's in the same boat, there's no point to freaking out or arguing.

 

I stand by my earlier comment, GW made some changes with NuMarines that alter the fundamental mechanics of the game. We used to have GEQ, MEQ and TEQ to worry about, now we have PEQ. They have better range, more wounds, and negative AP modifiers on their guns. They cost less than comparable units, especially with their tanks.

 

I'm sure Cultists / CSMs / Chosen / Terminators have a role grabbing objectives or toting heavy weapons. The problem is PEQ destroy them very efficiently. Competitive lists will focus on other units or ignore them entirely.

 

With that unit list I posted, I'm saying these are our All Stars. Other units can still work, they're just at a disadvantage fighting NuMarines.

 

Techsoldaten,

 

I've highlighted the ones I think are perhaps a bigger factor.

 

There are 3 simple truths when it comes to NuMarines.

 

- Primaris are lawnmowers against infantry.

 

- Repulsors have way too much firepower. +++ True, but a 3+ save is interesting. Also the down side I found is dedicating ALL your shots from a Repulsor often leads to a lot of missplaced shots (there's a ton of weird variety on a Repulsor) And of course when you get it down, it's a giant chunk of shooting gone.

 

- Infiltrators and Drop Pods make deep strike very hard to do.

 

After about 10 games, I'm starting to see how to win against them with Chaos. While other factors are important, accounting for these is the best place to start.

 

Ultimately, NuMarines are still an elite army that loses significant potential each time a unit is destroyed. It just takes more work to make it happen. The units that have been getting work done for me fit into a tight set of categories.

 

- High T units with good invul saves.

 

- Psykers that dish mortal wounds - especially to units you plan to charge.

 

- Long-range units, 36+ inches, with reroll auras.

 

- High mobility units that can disrupt board control.

 

- Indirect fire.

 

++ I would add Damage 2+ shooting will save you a lot of time. Anything.

 

 

 

D2+ shooting - I thought about that and left it off because it's tricky.

 

D2 is ideal for killing Primaris, more than wastes potential damage. More importantly, people read D2 damage and instantly think plasma spam, which gets outranged by Bolt Rifles.

 

I would not underestimate board control. Primaris armies benefit from increased range on their guns. Denying them the opportunity to move, pinning a few units to a certain area of the board defeats some shooting tactics.

 

As to 'good/bad' Chaos units:

 

Conversely, the units that have gotten me tabled include the following.

 

- Helbrutes / Deredeos / Contemptors. Butcher Cannons don't have the range, the other guns aren't worth it.

 

Really? I had kind of started pulling out Helbrutes with my 5++ Litany Aura. I'm not entirely sold on Butcher Cannon Contemptors, but I am still a bit surprised to hear you say this, but I haven't tried them myself.

 

Yeah, my Dreads were getting blown away immediately by Repulsors. They are a natural target for the main guns.

 

Again, some lists may have a role for them but they're not going to be marching up the board with 36" shooting. NuMarines have too many ways to destroy them and we have more efficient options.

 

As to 'good/bad' Chaos units:

 

 

- Deep Strikers. NuMarines have too many ways to stop them from landing in charge range.

 

- Daemon Engines, or at least Maulerfiends. They get bracketed too easily and don't dish enough damage when they get there.

 

- Codex Tanks. Our tanks are outclassed by a large margin, they become a points sink. This includes Rhinos. Some Forgeworld stuff works.

 

The thing about Deep Strikes is (without Bikes/speed of some sort) you still need them. In tournament play if you can't threaten the backfield reliably or even make them think about covering their butts back there, it changes the game dynamic far too much for my liking. Make them think you have that threat. Sure they can plug holes, but make them do it, don't let them move aggressively all over the board towards you. Force them to worry about your 'possible' deep strike unit. 

 

Most Daemon Engines don't work I agree. Not at that level. I'm tired of being forced to use multiple support units and Disco Lords to make some of those units function properly. No thanks. I'm done with that.

 

Codex tanks? This is something I'm not sure about yet. I'm still playing a mix of infantry. But want to try my triple Vindicator list idea. Or Triple Pred. Even a Landraider. Lots of T8 is good against NuMarines since they rely (in general) on throwing lots of mid level stuff at you.  

 

Rhino's: I don't know if I'm ready to write them off yet. Not good... no, but some of our stuff is going to have to be infantry and I've now had games where my tin boxes double OR triple the life expectancy of my Infantry.

 

Re: deep strikers, maybe there's a role.

 

I care about Bloodletter Bombs landing outside charge range and Obliterators landing 24" away from anything worth shooting. They cost a lot and you can't afford to have them standing there for a turn before they do their job.

 

Captians, Infiltrators and Drop Pods are hard counters to a deep striking army, you don't have the same opportunities to drop in the backlines that you do versus other factions.

 

Re: Daemon Engines - yeah, that's my problem with Maulerfiends. You have to really commit to them and they take too many wounds on the way there.

 

I've had some luck with a lone Venomcrawler and better results with Defilers. They could be the Distraction Carnifex.

 

Re: Codex tanks - look at the cost of a Land Raider versus a Repulsor, it's outclassed. A laspred can take 4 guns but it gets a negative hit modifier when it moves whereas Havocs don't. Rhinos are Rhinos.

 

I haven't played a Vindicator in 8th edition, but there's enough problems with tanks for me to say they shouldn't be the focus of a CSM list.

 

 

I'll just add:

 

- Cultists. This is rough. The 'cheap' troop is really a liability against quite a few NuMarine lists.

- Possessed. Those fun Possessed blob ideas? Nope. doesn't work at all now. You'll be making a bucket of saves regardless of buffs and math just catches up with you. No more massed infantry in the open.

- Berzerkers: I am on the fence. They keep getting cut from my lists. A glass hammer to be sure, but getting through Human Physiology and extra wounds with measily -1 AP... plus whatever you hit, you can be sure that those zerkers are going to get zonked.  Not sure on them.

 

See, this is what I mean.

 

There are certain Chaos units that are just begging to be shot up by NuMarines. Cultists get no save, when Tactical doctrine is active the best a Berzerker or Possessed is going to get is 5+. What's the point of paying so much for units that are just going to die?

 

You could have Cultists as objective campers, you could have some Possessed guarding the backline, you could put some Berzerkers in a building to have them charge a single unit. But you can't go big with them or else NuMarines are going to table you.

 

 

 

Things I'm using again:

 

- Oblits. I hate their cost. It still feels too high for their random behavior. But what we -severely- lack is a RELIABLE way to put a decent volume of 2-3 Damage shots into: Aggressors, Centurions, Primaris, Repulsors, Eliminators, etc.  A (Chaos) bolter has never felt more useless to me.

 

- Rhino's. Yup I know. It's desperation at its finest. The Rhino is for scoring denial. A squad of marines, or worse a squad of Cultists is just auto points given up, even in cover. Nipple Bolters of Centurions with AP-1, Heavy Bolters with AP-2, dual firing Thunder Fire Cannons.... there's a lot of it. not to mention Aggressors. Rhino's delay the inevitable, but sometimes I get to strike from them.

 

- Landraiders. They need to be cheaper like marine LR's. (Did I miss a Chaos point tweak on these?) I am using these with Knights, and I am using them with tanks. I might make it -1 to hit, I might use it with a (cheap) Warpsmith. If Abe is around, and I even get slightly lucky, that whole Landraider punches back, gets repaired, and the contents are largely intact (10 Havocs!). It's a Honey Pot for Marines.

 

I know these aren't good ideas. I'm just trying anything now. Sorry I don't have better ideas right now.

 

That's all anybody can really do, right? Try different tactics and see if there's a reliable way to beat them?

 

I'm being very mindful about the strengths of NuMarines and tailoring lists specifically to counter them. I'm not to the point of min / maxing, I'm not really thinking about buffs except for HQs.

 

 

I don't want to wish list, but things I've -really- felt the effect of since NuMarines:

 

- I'd love a real flyer. (As a transport would be a huge bonus)

 

- The Chaos Space Marine needs real work

 

- GW needs to give up on their idea of rarely (if ever) tweaking a dataslate. Chaos is OVER LOADED with support stuff. Fix the inherent issues with base units so I don't 500 Points of "support" to make 1500 points of Mediocrity "functional". FIX THE DATASLATES. Stop taking the easy money on a single character sculpt that provides X Aura to reroll X dice to help broken unit Y work better.

 

- More on Dataslates: Admittedly GW said we were getting a second version of our codex, where Marines are Nu. But with that in mind when I play my Chaos I feel like I'm playing 7th ed, from unit choices, down to effectiveness. NuMarines feel like I'm playing 8.5 edition.  The feel of disparity here is about 1.5 editions.

 

It's a really tough match up for sure, but I still have a lot of faith in just trying to be a better player over taking the strongest army out there. (For what it's worth!)

 

I'm not optimistic about incoming improvements. Maybe some points reductions, but not enough to make it worth it.

 

The one thing that would really make a difference would be to make psychic powers like Presience area of effect. If I could drop that on multiple units per turn, that would change the units I bring.

 

But I don't expect to see that anytime soon.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Yeah, he certainly has potential for damage. Probably not too difficult to screen with chaff and such. Seems more like a gimmick to me, though it's not like we have lots of arrows in the quiver anyhow.

Before his blog went down, Don Hooson noted that there were some folks having some luck with the MoE.....himself included I believe.

 

I'm probably going to run 3 in my World Eaters and just fling them out of a transport with 7 attacks apiece to see what dies.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I just had another thought.....has anyone tried DS'ing solo Oblits or Mutilators (yes, I said it) as distractions to "thread the needle" between deepstrike counters and still break things up? Going back to the 7th Ed days of Oblit or Spawn "shame" might have some merit. Dunno.

Also, a Thousand Sons Supreme Command is a common ally choice. How about making one of those guys an Exalted on a Disc with Seer's Bane and webway him into the backline to drop Smites and wreck faces?

Edited October 3, 2019 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Painjunky]

Really no more love for maulerfiends???

 

They are almost the same pts as a venom crawler with more wounds and attacks and don't have to think about not advancing to shoot better. 

I move + advance them up and they can't be ignored. If they die first great!

 

I also include a LD, 2 DPs, defiler, 2 venomcrawlers, 2 greater possessed, bikes, 2 helbrutes and min chaincannon troops in the same list and they are truly grateful for the 2-3 maulerfiend sacrifice.

Please let me know what i'm missing. 

Cheers.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Painjunky

[Aothaine]

I just had another thought.....has anyone tried DS'ing solo Oblits or Mutilators (yes, I said it) as distractions to "thread the needle" between deepstrike counters and still break things up? Going back to the 7th Ed days of Oblit or Spawn "shame" might have some merit. Dunno.

 

I don't think you can anymore. Isn't the min unit size 3? I can't get my rule book out atm. 

 

 

 

I'm surprised you rank Emperor's Children over Black Legion - is it the sonic hellbrute and ability to take noise marines for troops?  Because otherwise, EC doesn't really have anything going for it - its character, legion trait and relic are all rather mediocre (at best).

 

People forget how good always attacking first in melee is. Sure they can take Noise Marines as troops which are awesome. But also when you assault that Noise Marine unit, they over-watch with 3 bolter shots per model and then attack you first with 3 attacks per model now. Also, when ever you kill any of them they get to attack again.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

I just had another thought.....has anyone tried DS'ing solo Oblits or Mutilators (yes, I said it) as distractions to "thread the needle" between deepstrike counters and still break things up? Going back to the 7th Ed days of Oblit or Spawn "shame" might have some merit. Dunno.

 

I don't think you can anymore. Isn't the min unit size 3? I can't get my rule book out atm. 

 

 

Pardon me. You're totally correct. I can't believe I forgot that.

[Gederas]

I just had another thought.....has anyone tried DS'ing solo Oblits or Mutilators (yes, I said it) as distractions to "thread the needle" between deepstrike counters and still break things up? Going back to the 7th Ed days of Oblit or Spawn "shame" might have some merit. Dunno.

I don't think you can anymore. Isn't the min unit size 3? I can't get my rule book out atm.

Pardon me. You're totally correct. I can't believe I forgot that.

Obliterators are 1-3, Mutilators are stuck at 3

[techsoldaten]

Really no more love for maulerfiends???

 

They are almost the same pts as a venom crawler with more wounds and attacks and don't have to think about not advancing to shoot better. 

I move + advance them up and they can't be ignored. If they die first great!

 

I also include a LD, 2 DPs, defiler, 2 venomcrawlers, 2 greater possessed, bikes, 2 helbrutes and min chaincannon troops in the same list and they are truly grateful for the 2-3 maulerfiend sacrifice.

Please let me know what i'm missing. 

Cheers.

 

Let us know how you make out against NuMarines.

 

When I ran a Discolord and 3 Maulerfiends, everything got bracketed by the end of the second turn and never made it into combat. Since they had no shooting, my opponent didn't feel the need to destroy anything outright.

 

I did better with a pair of Defilers with scourges and heavy flamers. 2D6 autohits with 3s to wound is great against Primaris. Costs about the same plus more wounds.

 

The reason I like Venomcrawlers better is the guns and the wound regen in combat. I've only used one once but he did okay.

[Painjunky]

Cool, thanks for the info Techsoldaten.

I like defilers and crawlers too.

 

So if he doesn't destroy them outright aren't they free to charge and soak overwatch/tie stuff up/sell their lives dearly etc?

Did they just not make it into charge range by turn 3?

It seems doable by turn 3 even if bracketed.

[Excessus]

I think the complaint is that if they get there they'll hit like a wet noodle because they're so far down the brackets.

[Azekai]

My strategy is to wait for the rules to get patched. 40 shot repulsors? C'mon.

I know this game is about shifting models, but this is a bit too blatant of an over-correction.

[Painjunky]

I think the complaint is that if they get there they'll hit like a wet noodle because they're so far down the brackets.

 

Yep, very true.

But it's still 3 S8, -3, 3D + 6 S4, -2, 2D attacks hitting on 4+. This is worst case scenario. Lowest bracket, no auras, no strats, or anything.

This is not good at all but it is still something.

 

Thing is, all i want them to do is soak fire, then soak overwatch/tie stuff up/force my opponent to deal with them and then hopefully explode in the enemies front line. 

[techsoldaten]

Cool, thanks for the info Techsoldaten.

I like defilers and crawlers too.

 

So if he doesn't destroy them outright aren't they free to charge and soak overwatch/tie stuff up/sell their lives dearly etc?

Did they just not make it into charge range by turn 3?

It seems doable by turn 3 even if bracketed.

 

The Maulerfiends and the Discolord never made it into combat.

 

You have to remember the rules are different with PEQ. Intercessors have Bolt Rifles that are rapid fire 1, 30 inch range and have a negative AP modifier. It lets them perform some cheap tricks that are very good against melee units.

 

The sequence went something like this.

 

- I went first, advanced about 15 inches with the Daemon Engines.

 

- He moved up with 2 10 man Intercessor squads, a Redemptor, Calgar and a Lieutenant. They were just in range to shoot and had rerolls to hit and wound, meaning almost everything wounded. I had 4+ saves and took about 3 wounds per model.

 

- I advanced the Daemon Engines up another 15 inches, just outside charge range. He moved his units backwards and switched to Tactical Doctrine, meaning his guns were now AP -2 AND he was about 24 inches away. This time, he did about 5 wounds per model and bracketed all my Daemon Engines.

 

- I advanced the Daemon Engines again but terrain was getting in the way. I had 2 Maulerfiends in charge range but they failed 11" charges. He stayed still and fired, getting 2 shots from each Intercessor with rerolls to hit and wound. He destroyed 2 Maulerfiends and bracketed down the remaining Daemon Engines to 2 wounds each.

 

- I advanced again. The Discolord got the charge but died to Overwatch. My last Maulerfiend was destroyed in his shooting phase.

 

So that was half my army gone without causing a wound. And there wasn't anything I could do about it, he just had the advantage.

 

The thing is, this is just what Primaris do. No Stratagems, no Psychic, just line troops with stock weapons rolling average.

[Painjunky]

Thanks again Tech. I appreciate the in depth reply mate!

 

You moved up about 15 T1 then moved up about 15 again T2 but he kept moving back and shooting so even turn 3 and 4 you were too far away to move and charge cos terrain and bracketed if i read this correctly.

 

Sounds like you had table control if nothing else.

Cheers.

[Prot]

 

Really no more love for maulerfiends???

 

They are almost the same pts as a venom crawler with more wounds and attacks and don't have to think about not advancing to shoot better. 

I move + advance them up and they can't be ignored. If they die first great!

 

I also include a LD, 2 DPs, defiler, 2 venomcrawlers, 2 greater possessed, bikes, 2 helbrutes and min chaincannon troops in the same list and they are truly grateful for the 2-3 maulerfiend sacrifice.

Please let me know what i'm missing. 

Cheers.

 

Let us know how you make out against NuMarines.

 

When I ran a Discolord and 3 Maulerfiends, everything got bracketed by the end of the second turn and never made it into combat. Since they had no shooting, my opponent didn't feel the need to destroy anything outright.

 

I did better with a pair of Defilers with scourges and heavy flamers. 2D6 autohits with 3s to wound is great against Primaris. Costs about the same plus more wounds.

 

The reason I like Venomcrawlers better is the guns and the wound regen in combat. I've only used one once but he did okay.

 

 

This is kind of what I was referring to earlier.

 

Mauler's are okay, but too limited. MAYBE if you're Corsairs. There's a way to punch your way in deep very early, but that's it. Once you're degraded, you're just going to die.  I think the Venomcrawler needs a bit of a reduction, because without a Disco nearby, it can be truly lethargic. BUT the saving grace, I agree, is regen, and gobbling up Infantry... which is something NuMarines love. 

 

Defilers are actually alright for their points, I just cannot make them work. I don't know why. On paper it looks okay, but their bulk can seriously work against them on some tables. And of course the shortcoming of all of this is any infantry stranding on a second floor in ruins can't be touched by most of these models which really sucks as I've had tournament games where infantry just move up a floor and ignore me.

 

Venomcrawlers aren't great imo, but they do force your opponent to shoot at them. I really just wish Cursed Earth was easier to get off, and the MoP's should have jump pack access. Most of the stuff that MoP's actually work well supporting is actually far faster than they are, creating this weird broken chain of support. Sacrifice is the only 'auto include' for me.

 

Since I play Black Legion, it's hard to invest too much in those crawlers. It really costs me since a lot because of Abaddon.