Chaos vs. New Marines

[techsoldaten]

Thanks again Tech. I appreciate the in depth reply mate!

 

You moved up about 15 T1 then moved up about 15 again T2 but he kept moving back and shooting so even turn 3 and 4 you were too far away to move and charge cos terrain and bracketed if i read this correctly.

 

Yeah, and it's still bothering me very much.

 

In case this wasn't clear, the odds are the Maulerfiends would have died a full turn sooner had they gotten better advance rolls. Played optimally, PEQ will destroy Maulerfiends without taking any wounds > 90% of the time.

 

Let's say the Daemon Engines advanced 16" first turn. That would put them within 30" of the Intercessors, who now get to double tap because they didn't move.

 

Let's say the Daemon Engines advanced a full 16" second turn. At 30", even a 12" charge is not close enough to get into combat. Whereas the Intercessors get to shoot again, plus they get to double tap, plus they can take Tactical Doctrine for additional negative AP (plus they could use Chapter Tactics / Stratagems / various Artefacts to really screw with you.)

 

This happens precisely because the maximum threat distance - movement plus advance plus charge range - is less than the range on the guns carried by standard line troops. Mechanically, a PEQ unit just needs to be in range to shoot but outside the maximum threat range to kick this off against any melee unit.

 

A unit with a maximum threat range of 28" would need a minimum of 3 turns to overcome the distance required to charge - assuming the Primaris player doesn't move. That 2" gap seems insignificant but will be absolutely devastating in the hands of a skilled PEQ player.

 

This is why I was saying NuMarines fundamentally alter the game. 30" range is the death of melee and mid-range armies.

 

 

Defilers are actually alright for their points, I just cannot make them work. I don't know why. On paper it looks okay, but their bulk can seriously work against them on some tables. And of course the shortcoming of all of this is any infantry stranding on a second floor in ruins can't be touched by most of these models which really sucks as I've had tournament games where infantry just move up a floor and ignore me.

 

Venomcrawlers aren't great imo, but they do force your opponent to shoot at them. I really just wish Cursed Earth was easier to get off, and the MoP's should have jump pack access. Most of the stuff that MoP's actually work well supporting is actually far faster than they are, creating this weird broken chain of support. Sacrifice is the only 'auto include' for me.

 

Since I play Black Legion, it's hard to invest too much in those crawlers. It really costs me since a lot because of Abaddon.

 

 

The benefit to Defilers is the guns, obviously.

 

Agreed size is an issue, but what matters is the smoke launchers. -1 to hit is actually a big deal for a S7 model against massed BS 3 S4 shots. PEQ seem to have a lot of those.

 

I don't know if you read the FAQ ruling that says an ability can be used in your opponent's turn, and whether or not you consider smoke launchers an ability. I do and have no problems  triggering them during my opponent's shooting phase.

 

Even if you think that's not how the rules work, the best Defiler gun versus PEQ is a Twin Heavy Flamer. If you have one, it's best to move and pop smoke turn 1, the Defiler will take less wounds without sacrificing any offense. As a bonus, next turn, the PEQ player will be forced to decide if they want to fall back because they could be in range of the Heavy Flamer.

 

Venomcrawlers, otoh, have a natural advantage in that they regen wounds when they kill things in the fight phase.

 

PEQ have a mechanic that pushes out deep strike past charge range with their Infiltrators. They can also do Drop Pod Assault and put units on the board in your deployment zone turn 1. Both of these are important in that they defend against Deep Strike and give the player board control. Any PEQ army is incomplete without at least a unit of Infiltrators.

 

Infiltrators and Drop Pods are probably going to be in charge range turn one. The best Daemon Engine to go after them is a Venomcrawler. It has decent movement, it can shoot on the move without penalty, it has superior wound regeneration, plus it's kind of a distraction. Your opponent will focus resources on killing it, allowing the rest of your army to do their jobs.

 

Venomcrawlers seem to be ideal for harassment. 3 of them might be able to clear the way for a Bloodletter Bomb or Obliterators, but I haven't really dug into the mechanics and something tells me the odds of killing a 5-man Infiltrator unit outright is pretty low. And I still question whether a Defiler would be the better option, I just haven't played them enough to form a solid opinion.

 

That said, the job for Daemon Engines is harassment, not the main offensive force. Too many ways for PEQ to destroy them, but many opportunities for them to take out denial units.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Cool, thanks for the info Techsoldaten.

I like defilers and crawlers too.

 

So if he doesn't destroy them outright aren't they free to charge and soak overwatch/tie stuff up/sell their lives dearly etc?

Did they just not make it into charge range by turn 3?

It seems doable by turn 3 even if bracketed.

 

The Maulerfiends and the Discolord never made it into combat.

 

You have to remember the rules are different with PEQ. Intercessors have Bolt Rifles that are rapid fire 1, 30 inch range and have a negative AP modifier. It lets them perform some cheap tricks that are very good against melee units.

 

The sequence went something like this.

 

- I went first, advanced about 15 inches with the Daemon Engines.

 

- He moved up with 2 10 man Intercessor squads, a Redemptor, Calgar and a Lieutenant. They were just in range to shoot and had rerolls to hit and wound, meaning almost everything wounded. I had 4+ saves and took about 3 wounds per model.

 

- I advanced the Daemon Engines up another 15 inches, just outside charge range. He moved his units backwards and switched to Tactical Doctrine, meaning his guns were now AP -2 AND he was about 24 inches away. This time, he did about 5 wounds per model and bracketed all my Daemon Engines.

 

- I advanced the Daemon Engines again but terrain was getting in the way. I had 2 Maulerfiends in charge range but they failed 11" charges. He stayed still and fired, getting 2 shots from each Intercessor with rerolls to hit and wound. He destroyed 2 Maulerfiends and bracketed down the remaining Daemon Engines to 2 wounds each.

 

- I advanced again. The Discolord got the charge but died to Overwatch. My last Maulerfiend was destroyed in his shooting phase.

 

So that was half my army gone without causing a wound. And there wasn't anything I could do about it, he just had the advantage.

 

The thing is, this is just what Primaris do. No Stratagems, no Psychic, just line troops with stock weapons rolling average.

 

This is interesting. What was the deployment? What was the mission? There's something I'm missing here. Was it just the Intercessors or were you getting funneled by Infiltrators and Drop Pods?

 

Something about the distance seems off to me, given how frequently I end up in combat against Primaris, even on things like Hammer and Anvil. I may just be getting lucky with missions where the objectives force the enemy to close to score. Our tables also have about 50% terrain, with half of that being LOS-blocking.

[techsoldaten]

This is interesting. What was the deployment? What was the mission? There's something I'm missing here. Was it just the Intercessors or were you getting funneled by Infiltrators and Drop Pods?

 

Something about the distance seems off to me, given how frequently I end up in combat against Primaris, even on things like Hammer and Anvil. I may just be getting lucky with missions where the objectives force the enemy to close to score. Our tables also have about 50% terrain, with half of that being LOS-blocking.

 

 

The mission was Beachhead, I deployed first. In that mission, you deploy your entire army, then your opponent deploys. We had objectives in each of our deployment zones plus one in the middle.

 

The rest of his army was other Intercessors, Aggressors and Devastators, no Infiltrators or Drop Pods. He may have had a Librarian in there, but there wasn't anything particularly weird about the list. I think it was a Battalion and a Spearhead.

 

Victory points didn't matter much because he tabled me. But I did get points for holding the center objective turn 2 and turn 3, along with my own. He was getting points for holding his own objective, and he did get my objective towards the end of the game.

 

Edit: and there was terrain. This was a match up between Intercessors and Daemon Engines because his Devastators did not have LOS across the board. He had the advantage of knowing where all my units were before he set up.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

This is interesting. What was the deployment? What was the mission? There's something I'm missing here. Was it just the Intercessors or were you getting funneled by Infiltrators and Drop Pods?

 

Something about the distance seems off to me, given how frequently I end up in combat against Primaris, even on things like Hammer and Anvil. I may just be getting lucky with missions where the objectives force the enemy to close to score. Our tables also have about 50% terrain, with half of that being LOS-blocking.

 

 

The mission was Beachhead, I deployed first. In that mission, you deploy your entire army, then your opponent deploys. We had objectives in each of our deployment zones plus one in the middle.

 

The rest of his army was other Intercessors, Aggressors and Devastators, no Infiltrators or Drop Pods. He may have had a Librarian in there, but there wasn't anything particularly weird about the list. I think it was a Battalion and a Spearhead.

 

Victory points didn't matter much because he tabled me. But I did get points for holding the center objective turn 2 and turn 3, along with my own. He was getting points for holding his own objective, and he did get my objective towards the end of the game.

 

OK, so he counter-deployed into good firing positions and shot you down as you crossed the center. What turn did you get tabled? Since Beach Head has "Acceptable Casualties" he would still have lost if he tabled you but time ran out before he outscored you. I imagine he had 2 turns or more left to run up score?

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

Defilers are actually alright for their points, I just cannot make them work. I don't know why. On paper it looks okay, but their bulk can seriously work against them on some tables. And of course the shortcoming of all of this is any infantry stranding on a second floor in ruins can't be touched by most of these models which really sucks as I've had tournament games where infantry just move up a floor and ignore me.

 

 

 

In my experience, Defilers do have some issues with bulk, but that can also work to their advantage when placed in your second line because their footprint and the threat of their combat abilities help keep Deep Strikers out of your backfield.....while they fire downrange. Relying on them to go dislodge infantry in an offensive role can result in some of the issues you mentioned.

 

TLDR: They're an anchor for your middle and good at brawling on objectives in the open. Using them as the tip of the spear can cause problems unless you have specialists to help address their shortcomings or employ them in an unorthodox manner (like the dance Techsoldaten did with the flamers). They might pair well with multiple small-footprint Raptor squads to "clean out those hard to reach places." 

[Aothaine]

This has me some-what concerned that even rhinos might not work against them. Might be time to invest in three land raiders. I think if you're going to have a foot slogging army like this you need a way to get into combat very fast or you run into this issue where all your units are chewed up before getting to partake in their specialty. The Daemon Engines have always been lack-luster in my opinion. But to be fair I think space marines are out-classing everything right now. They might have problems with Tyranid Swarm armies with a few big gribblies.

[Prot]

So I'm running a high pressure list tonight for an experiment. So far in my last half dozen games or so I've put the Disco Lords away. I'm pulling out a Supreme Command of 3 to go with my BL Battalion.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

This has me some-what concerned that even rhinos might not work against them. Might be time to invest in three land raiders. I think if you're going to have a foot slogging army like this you need a way to get into combat very fast or you run into this issue where all your units are chewed up before getting to partake in their specialty. The Daemon Engines have always been lack-luster in my opinion. But to be fair I think space marines are out-classing everything right now. They might have problems with Tyranid Swarm armies with a few big gribblies.

 

Rhinos will work to an extent, but you need threat saturation.

[techsoldaten]

 

OK, so he counter-deployed into good firing positions and shot you down as you crossed the center. What turn did you get tabled? Since Beach Head has "Acceptable Casualties" he would still have lost if he tabled you but time ran out before he outscored you. I imagine he had 2 turns or more left to run up score?

 

I was tabled turn 5. At that point, he was ahead by at least 12 VPs. He controlled all 3 objectives for 2 turns, which is worth 6 VPs each turn.

 

With Beachhead, you get to place your own objectives. He kept his in the middle of his deployment zone, while I positioned mine to the right encourage him to split his forces. My Soulforged Pack marched up the middle to go after his objective while my Chainlord / Sorcerer / Cultists / Obliterators fought it out with the rest of his army off to the right.

 

If you're really interested, I could DM you more details about the game, but we might be getting OT.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

OK, so he counter-deployed into good firing positions and shot you down as you crossed the center. What turn did you get tabled? Since Beach Head has "Acceptable Casualties" he would still have lost if he tabled you but time ran out before he outscored you. I imagine he had 2 turns or more left to run up score?

 

I was tabled turn 5. At that point, he was ahead by at least 12 VPs. He controlled all 3 objectives for 2 turns, which is worth 6 VPs each turn.

 

With Beachhead, you get to place your own objectives. He kept his in the middle of his deployment zone, while I positioned mine to the right encourage him to split his forces. My Soulforged Pack marched up the middle to go after his objective while my Chainlord / Sorcerer / Cultists / Obliterators fought it out with the rest of his army off to the right.

 

If you're really interested, I could DM you more details about the game, but we might be getting OT.

 

Understood. Fire away with the DM before we go any further. Will help me with my own prep.

 

Have you thought of going a little "Sons of the Cyclops" and using Black Legion Rubricae to burn down Primaris? Between Apostle buffs, Weaver of Fates, and the fact that they can haul their own Psychic Support around (if you switch out Smite with Chaos Familiar) one or two squads might be interesting, perhaps with a Warpflamer or two. They effectively ignore the AP-1 on Bolt rifles because of their +1 Save vs D1 weapons and if you hit them with Weaver, they ignore the -2 for Tactical Doctrine.

 

In my experience, once Rubricae get to double tap range, Primaris start hating life. Perhaps even a brick advancing and shooting via the BL Legion Trait and Warp Time might work until optimal range is reached, then they park and blast away with Bolter Discipline. Would make an interesting place to put Abby on his way up the board.

 

Primaris like to spam D1 weapons. Rubricae don't mind D1 incoming, even with AP. Might be interesting to test.

 

EDIT: Even without Abby, a Council of Traitors Apostle could conceivably get them to Ld 11 (BL trait + Inspiring Leader and Demagogue) and give them -1 to be hit. Second Apostle for +1 to hit, CoT Sorcerer with Warp Lord for Weaver of Fates and Prescience if you need +2 to hit for some reason. Make both Apostles Tzeentch so that they can regen sniper wounds. Swap Smite for Warp Time on the Aspiring Sorcerer. Might be fun. Also, Ld 12 might be possible by putting the relic trophy rack on the Apostle.

[techsoldaten]

Understood. Fire away with the DM before we go any further. Will help me with my own prep.

 

Have you thought of going a little "Sons of the Cyclops" and using Black Legion Rubricae to burn down Primaris? Between Apostle buffs, Weaver of Fates, and the fact that they can haul their own Psychic Support around (if you switch out Smite with Chaos Familiar) one or two squads might be interesting, perhaps with a Warpflamer or two. They effectively ignore the AP-1 on Bolt rifles because of their +1 Save vs D1 weapons and if you hit them with Weaver, they ignore the -2 for Tactical Doctrine.

 

In my experience, once Rubricae get to double tap range, Primaris start hating life. Perhaps even a brick advancing and shooting via the BL Legion Trait and Warp Time might work until optimal range is reached, then they park and blast away with Bolter Discipline. Would make an interesting place to put Abby on his way up the board.

 

Primaris like to spam D1 weapons. Rubricae don't mind D1 incoming, even with AP. Might be interesting to test.

 

EDIT: Even without Abby, a Council of Traitors Apostle could conceivably get them to Ld 11 (BL trait + Inspiring Leader and Demagogue) and give them -1 to be hit. Second Apostle for +1 to hit, CoT Sorcerer with Warp Lord for Weaver of Fates and Prescience if you need +2 to hit for some reason. Make both Apostles Tzeentch so that they can regen sniper wounds. Swap Smite for Warp Time on the Aspiring Sorcerer. Might be fun. Also, Ld 12 might be possible by putting the relic trophy rack on the Apostle.

 

 

Hey, happy to help with list prep and feel free to fire questions by me.

 

Honestly, I'd be more likely to use a TS detachment for Brotherhood of Sorcerers. MW spam chews through PEQ, the more Smites you can get off, the better.

 

But yeah, those buffs sound nice. I'm not sure they can overcome the range problem, but I'd be willing to try it.

 

The two lists I talked about in this thread that stand up to PEQ are:

 

- Black Legion gunline (beats them with range and indirect fire, kills Triple Repulsors)

 

- Daemon Primarchs (overcomes distance immediately, kills Intercessor spam)

 

What they have in common is not caring about 30" Bolt Rifles, PEQ gimmicks don't mean anything to them.

 

My next step is to figure out how to counter Infiltrators. If I could reliably take out 2 squads first turn, that would open some doors for deep striking in charge range.

[Aothaine]

 

 

 

Rubrics look awesome in Black Legion colors as well. :D

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Understood. Fire away with the DM before we go any further. Will help me with my own prep.

 

Have you thought of going a little "Sons of the Cyclops" and using Black Legion Rubricae to burn down Primaris? Between Apostle buffs, Weaver of Fates, and the fact that they can haul their own Psychic Support around (if you switch out Smite with Chaos Familiar) one or two squads might be interesting, perhaps with a Warpflamer or two. They effectively ignore the AP-1 on Bolt rifles because of their +1 Save vs D1 weapons and if you hit them with Weaver, they ignore the -2 for Tactical Doctrine.

 

In my experience, once Rubricae get to double tap range, Primaris start hating life. Perhaps even a brick advancing and shooting via the BL Legion Trait and Warp Time might work until optimal range is reached, then they park and blast away with Bolter Discipline. Would make an interesting place to put Abby on his way up the board.

 

Primaris like to spam D1 weapons. Rubricae don't mind D1 incoming, even with AP. Might be interesting to test.

 

EDIT: Even without Abby, a Council of Traitors Apostle could conceivably get them to Ld 11 (BL trait + Inspiring Leader and Demagogue) and give them -1 to be hit. Second Apostle for +1 to hit, CoT Sorcerer with Warp Lord for Weaver of Fates and Prescience if you need +2 to hit for some reason. Make both Apostles Tzeentch so that they can regen sniper wounds. Swap Smite for Warp Time on the Aspiring Sorcerer. Might be fun. Also, Ld 12 might be possible by putting the relic trophy rack on the Apostle.

 

 

Hey, happy to help with list prep and feel free to fire questions by me.

 

Honestly, I'd be more likely to use a TS detachment for Brotherhood of Sorcerers. MW spam chews through PEQ, the more Smites you can get off, the better.

 

But yeah, those buffs sound nice. I'm not sure they can overcome the range problem, but I'd be willing to try it.

 

The two lists I talked about in this thread that stand up to PEQ are:

 

- Black Legion gunline (beats them with range and indirect fire, kills Triple Repulsors)

 

- Daemon Primarchs (overcomes distance immediately, kills Intercessor spam)

 

What they have in common is not caring about 30" Bolt Rifles, PEQ gimmicks don't mean anything to them.

 

My next step is to figure out how to counter Infiltrators. If I could reliably take out 2 squads first turn, that would open some doors for deep striking in charge range.

 

Rubrics could do the Infiltrator thing. You could also use a Slaanesh Devastation Battery w/a Lord and Havocs in Rhinos + their Relic. They'll ignore cover and be able to shoot with one squad during the enemy's turn, then throw out 16 Lascannon shots on your turn. Problem solved, I think. Plus they'll remain useful for your gunline paradigm.

 

EDIT: Other options for nuking Infiltrators early:

 

Assuming 2x5 Infiltrators.....

 

Solo Oblits masked by tanks and terrain (small footprint) that walk out and smoke the Infiltrators on your turn 1. Perhaps an Iron Warriors detachment of 3x1 with a Sorcerer so that he can still Psychically buff your BL guys after the smoke clears.

 

Soulburners?

 

Plasma Chosen in Rhinos?

[Kain Mor]

I extensively use squads of plasma chosen and I really can’t recommend them. They’re expensive, and so depressingly squishy. Not to mention the mediocre range. With prescience they can do really good damage, but they’re CP hungry and buff reliant to top it off.

[Kythnos]

In the topic of daemon engines, I used a list that was heavy in those (1 Lord Discordant, 2 Defilers, 1 of Venomcrawler, Forge Fiend and Maulerfiend) plus other big targets in a 100PL match against IF yesterday. We played the mission from Vigilus Ablaze where the attacker plays an Army of mostly vehicles against an infantry-heavy defender.

 

Despite building his list around the heavy doctrine (stalker Intercessors and so on), the number of armoured targets was too much for the Primaris Army to thin down sufficiently before I was able to reach combat. There his list was slowly killed until it was wiped in round 5.

 

Now, this was a special scenario with unusual lists and I wouldn't claim that we are very experienced players. But I did feel that the mechanised approach has merits for general play against Primaris armies as well. Daemon engines - even with their shortcomings in damage output - can aid in this approach as distraction units which add some punch if left alone. Once the Defilers hit the Primaris lines they just kept on brawling, while the other daemon engines had already been killed.

[Sonoftherubric21]

In the topic of daemon engines, I used a list that was heavy in those (1 Lord Discordant, 2 Defilers, 1 of Venomcrawler, Forge Fiend and Maulerfiend) plus other big targets in a 100PL match against IF yesterday. We played the mission from Vigilus Ablaze where the attacker plays an Army of mostly vehicles against an infantry-heavy defender.

 

Despite building his list around the heavy doctrine (stalker Intercessors and so on), the number of armoured targets was too much for the Primaris Army to thin down sufficiently before I was able to reach combat. There his list was slowly killed until it was wiped in round 5.

 

Now, this was a special scenario with unusual lists and I wouldn't claim that we are very experienced players. But I did feel that the mechanised approach has merits for general play against Primaris armies as well. Daemon engines - even with their shortcomings in damage output - can aid in this approach as distraction units which add some punch if left alone. Once the Defilers hit the Primaris lines they just kept on brawling, while the other daemon engines had already been killed.

 

This was my inclination as well. Against Primaris heavy lists you are facing BUCKETS of str 4 shooting with ap-1/-2. I haven't played against them yet due to time issues but my plan is to have a mounted list, marines in Rhinos, Obliterators for the drop, multiple engines or predators, havocs with 48 inch guns staying away from the Intercessors as much as possible. 

 

Its a strange list design for chaos but it may be required to handle the new marines. Even with me dropping 100+ cultists/marines on the table I forsee major issues dealing with the never ending torrent of Str 4 fire. 

 

However.... That Rubric idea is juicy.... A Ru-Brick with an apostle and Weaver may cause real big issues for primaris lists, -1 to be hit, 3++, and our guns chew through marine infantry. It is an idea I will play with. 

 

 

[Captain Incompetence]

Went up against Raven Guard yesterday with a bunch of rhino's filled with Berzerkers and Chosen with power weapons trying to force combat, did sort of ok, but ran into some serious issues with the amount of sniper fire. I literally lost all my characters in 2 turns. Anyone have any advice against them pesky character assassination lists? Only thing I can come up with is putting them in a rhino and praying it doesn't get shot down, but this is unfortunately impossible for a lot of characters such as jump packs, bikers or Daemon princes.

[Excessus]

I think the only way is to LoS them and bring duplicates.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Went up against Raven Guard yesterday with a bunch of rhino's filled with Berzerkers and Chosen with power weapons trying to force combat, did sort of ok, but ran into some serious issues with the amount of sniper fire. I literally lost all my characters in 2 turns. Anyone have any advice against them pesky character assassination lists? Only thing I can come up with is putting them in a rhino and praying it doesn't get shot down, but this is unfortunately impossible for a lot of characters such as jump packs, bikers or Daemon princes.

 

Anything that can go into a Transport, or Deepstrike. So Terminators and Jet Packs and such would be solid options. 

 

That does leave Bikers and Princes out in the cold however. Tough situation. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Went up against Raven Guard yesterday with a bunch of rhino's filled with Berzerkers and Chosen with power weapons trying to force combat, did sort of ok, but ran into some serious issues with the amount of sniper fire. I literally lost all my characters in 2 turns. Anyone have any advice against them pesky character assassination lists? Only thing I can come up with is putting them in a rhino and praying it doesn't get shot down, but this is unfortunately impossible for a lot of characters such as jump packs, bikers or Daemon princes.

 

Anything that can go into a Transport, or Deepstrike. So Terminators and Jet Packs and such would be solid options. 

 

That does leave Bikers and Princes out in the cold however. Tough situation. 

 

Hide biker characters behind rhinos on at least 2 sides. Princes can stick to hiding behind terrain, though my view of that may be a bit skewed since I actually have 2 Princes that I run without wings and those can hide easier.

[Prot]

So I had a pretty tough outing. It was my attempt to make something I thought might be a better angle against NuMarines.

 

I took Abe, and a Termies Sorc, with 3 Oblits. (Multi damage that I could deepstrike. ). I took 2 Rhinos with 3 Black Legion Maine squads. One squad had plasma. One Rhino also had a chaincannon Havoc squad for Cacaphony and low end troop threat

 

I took 3 Flawless Host Disco Lords in a Specialist Detachment.

 

Finally a squad of 5 vanilla Termies for a deep threat.

 

The thing is I never know what I’m playing against but felt this army was okay. I ended up playing against Dark Eldar and I got smoked and had two conceded in turn 2.

 

Tons of Venoms with with blasters and poison cracked Rhinos with the assistance of the transport boats and the predator type boats ( can’t remember the name).

 

I had first turn and thought to take mid table behind ruins with cover using the quick Discos. I was mistaken. 3 Talos’ with fly hopped through the ruins easily finishing off two Discos.

 

With my infantry easily exposed by a plethora of blasters and disintegrators, I lost most to dozens of poison shots.

 

Finally I had the Oblits try to hit back. The first round of shooting they had to take out the Talos’, and thankfully they did. This would be the only really damage they would do as their Cacaphony was cancelled with Vect. My remaining infantry would be firing against -1 to hit Venoms in vein. I would only crack one open.

 

With 4 loaded Venoms remaining and his deepstrikers coming in and all those blasters, the army was nearly wiped in T2. I had no answer. It took everything I had to cancel the Talos invuln save and kill them. He wiped my army with ease.

 

I wasn’t gong to ‘report’ this game on the forum but it highlighted a massive problem I created by trying to plan for marines.... I played right into the hands of someone planning (not intentionally) for the same thing.

 

I had a smaller, elite list with irrelevant saves and a weakness to massed poison shooting and especially ‘melta’ type weapons.

 

Of course the army I played was tuned for very competitive play, but they all are in my meta.

 

Obviously this was very disappointing and I’m contemplating putting my Black Legion away or selling it. I’m not going to comment any further on how I feel about it right now as it will just come off negative and perhaps steer the conversation in a counter productive direction and I don’t want that. Suffice to say I have nothing positive to offer right now.

[techsoldaten]

I wasn’t gong to ‘report’ this game on the forum but it highlighted a massive problem I created by trying to plan for marines.... I played right into the hands of someone planning (not intentionally) for the same thing.

 

I had a smaller, elite list with irrelevant saves and a weakness to massed poison shooting and especially ‘melta’ type weapons.

 

Of course the army I played was tuned for very competitive play, but they all are in my meta.

 

Obviously this was very disappointing and I’m contemplating putting my Black Legion away or selling it. I’m not going to comment any further on how I feel about it right now as it will just come off negative and perhaps steer the conversation in a counter productive direction and I don’t want that. Suffice to say I have nothing positive to offer right now.

 

Yeah, NuMarines means the end of TAAC lists for Chaos. You can optimize for NuMarines, you can optimize for other factions, but you can't win against both because some fundamental mechanics are different. OTOH, NuMarines can easily put up a TAAC list and Xenos tactics don't really change against Imperials or Chaos - they have to play to their gimmick.

 

And I'd add to that: since NuMarines got their Codex / Supplements, lists are more extreme. Even without min / maxing, either I'm getting tabled or my opponent is getting tabled. There's very little in-between, the question is just who is better prepared to deal damage to their opponent.

 

I had the opposite experience over the weekend, I played a Black Legion / Bloodletter Bomb list against Dark Eldar. This list previously got tabled by PEQ, this time it tabled the Dark Eldar. Without the increased range or deep strike protection, 60 Bloodletters were able to eat about a third of his army turn 2 and he never recovered. All I really lost were Cultists and a Contemptor, which was completely fine.

 

Instead of shelving your army, what might be a viable substitute for TAAC is optimizing against a smaller set of factions. Ultramarines, Dark Eldar, and Imperial Knights dominate my local meta. While I do run into some Ork players, I'm focused on countering those armies and ignoring anti-horde / GSC infiltration for the time being. A smaller set of challenges is easier to work through.

 

But try and cheer up. My first few games left me astounded by what NuMarines can do. Since then, I've been exploring ways to play against their strengths and win using unorthodox lists and tactics.

 

At the end of the day, 40k is like a puzzle. The solution just keeps changing, which means it's really a test of your ability to adapt.

[Excessus]

I'm still up in the air about what troops to use.

[techsoldaten]

I'm still up in the air about what troops to use.

 

Let us know what you decide. Troop choices are tough for people right now.

 

R&H Battalion with Militia and a Commander is a cheap way to grab objectives and get your 5CP.

 

3 min sized squads of CSM with heavy weapons are inexpensive and can get some jobs done.

 

Cultists still screen and benefit from Stratagems.

 

Just remember not to build your whole list around them.

[Prot]

I'm still up in the air about what troops to use.

 

If you play ITC there's less reason than ever to take Cultists imo. If you play 40K, then I'd still do a mix. But I use far less cultists now. Marines as troops can be 'okay' as 5 vanilla guys, just move blocking, or a heavy weapon in cover. In either case no one likes shooting at them and they're not as flakey as Cultists.