Chaos vs. New Marines

[Excessus]

Atm I'm liking the idea of a squad of 5 with a heavy weapon. It can still impact the battle, and with 5 wounds it's durable-ish. As a base, a 5-man CSM squad is only 15 points more than 10 cultists, and they aren't t-shirt wearing flashlight-wielding softies. 

 

I'm thinking of an autocannon as a heavy weapon, the D2 and range will come in handy for sure...

[McElMcNinja]

I think I would take at least one missile launcher so I could use the stratagem Flakk Missile. Then I would take 2 autocannon as well. I'm just not sure which legion to make them, I'm thinking Purge as they will be run alongside Death Guard. But I like the CP bonus when taking them as the other. Edited October 9, 2019 by McElMcNinja

[Aothaine]

I'm just not sure which legion to make them.

 

Something to consider here is that if you run them with one of the original legions you can take special units in place of the CSM squads. Not sure what idea you are planning for your army but it is an option. If you are going Death Guard, there is almost zero reason to just replace them with Plague Marines. You can still have Plague Marines in 5-man squads. They just cost a little extra. 

 

I personally love the idea of Khorne and Slaanesh. But with how shooting focused the meta has been for years now I'm starting to lean hard onto Death Guard and Papa Nurgle. I also like that their entire range is shiny and new. Won't be starting my army until Jan at the earliest though so I have some time for things to sway me. Problem is I don't have enough money for every army lol! Sad days.. 

[BrainFireBob]

Been thinking a lot about this. What about going oddball on mid strength shooting?

 

Black Legion Battalion, Devastation Battery:

 

Abaddon (Warlord)

Field Commander, Daemon's Eye, Armor Bane, Plasma Pistol, Powerfist

 

3*5 man CSM with chaincannon, Slaanesh

17*Rubricae w/Aspiring Sorcerer

1*5 Havocs with Autocannons, Slaanesh

 

Fortification Detachment:

 

Noctilith Crown

 

Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment:

 

Spartan Assault Tank with Laser Destroyers

 

Red Corsairs Battalion

 

Dark Apostle, Mark of Tzeentch, Benediction of Darkness, Mutating Invocation

 

Sorcerer, Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime, Weaver of Fates

 

3*5 Chaos Marines with Autocannons, Combibolters, Slaanesh

 

 

Bit all-in on a single unit of havocs for the devastation battery, but it's a lot of CP, couple of targets that you need an eye on, and flexible options for deployment. In general, I'm thinking just loading 3 or 4 of the CSM squads in the Spartan and Warptiming the Rubrick around.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You're limited to three detachments in Matched Play, though.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Obviously this was very disappointing and I’m contemplating putting my Black Legion away or selling it. I’m not going to comment any further on how I feel about it right now as it will just come off negative and perhaps steer the conversation in a counter productive direction and I don’t want that. Suffice to say I have nothing positive to offer right now.

I say just put them away for now, space marines are definately over powered compared to chaos space marines with their new codex and supplements but it is most likely just the start of a new codex cycle. Mind you it might take longer then most want but I can't see GW putting out those books/rules and thinking it's balanced and leaving everything as is.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

You're limited to three detachments in Matched Play, though.

 

 

That's not actually true.  For tournaments, they recommend that organizers limit it to 3 detachments at a given point level, but there is no such limitation that applies to matched play generally.

[techsoldaten]

 

I'm still up in the air about what troops to use.

 

If you play ITC there's less reason than ever to take Cultists imo. If you play 40K, then I'd still do a mix. But I use far less cultists now. Marines as troops can be 'okay' as 5 vanilla guys, just move blocking, or a heavy weapon in cover. In either case no one likes shooting at them and they're not as flakey as Cultists. 

 

 

That's something important no one is talking about: how do NuMarines affect ITC and ETC formats?

 

My experience with them is limited to a few games. As I remember, there are special objectives related to destroying a specific number of units in a single turn.

 

PEQ has increased range, better negative AP modifiers, etc. I think this means they have some built-in advantages for these kinds of games. Wondering how dramatic it could be.

[techsoldaten]

Been thinking a lot about this. What about going oddball on mid strength shooting?

 

Black Legion Battalion, Devastation Battery:

 

Abaddon (Warlord)

Field Commander, Daemon's Eye, Armor Bane, Plasma Pistol, Powerfist

 

3*5 man CSM with chaincannon, Slaanesh

17*Rubricae w/Aspiring Sorcerer

1*5 Havocs with Autocannons, Slaanesh

 

Fortification Detachment:

 

Noctilith Crown

 

Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment:

 

Spartan Assault Tank with Laser Destroyers

 

Red Corsairs Battalion

 

Dark Apostle, Mark of Tzeentch, Benediction of Darkness, Mutating Invocation

 

Sorcerer, Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime, Weaver of Fates

 

3*5 Chaos Marines with Autocannons, Combibolters, Slaanesh

 

 

Bit all-in on a single unit of havocs for the devastation battery, but it's a lot of CP, couple of targets that you need an eye on, and flexible options for deployment. In general, I'm thinking just loading 3 or 4 of the CSM squads in the Spartan and Warptiming the Rubrick around.

 

Have you already built the list, or are you just putting together something with models you already have?

 

I'd like to talk about it stands up to PEQ. NuMarines can play a very conservative game where they hang back and shoot from a position where you can't return fire. This list feels very vulnerable to Intercessor gimmicks and negative AP modifiers. It's a great example of how traditional Chaos lists are unprepared for dealing with NuMarines.

 

Before I get into this, one thing to note: Field Commander cannot be used on named Characters. Abaddon cannot take Daemon's Eye. You need to change this before playing against anyone.

 

The Reaper Chaincannons stood out to me, they are the weirdest heavy weapon for Chaos. ML, LC, HB, AC - all of those weapons have 36"+ range. Chaincannons are 24", Heavy 8, S5. It's only good against infantry at mid-range.

 

This is important because PEQ shoot at 30" range. With Tactical Doctrine, here's how a basic 5-man bolt rifle Intercessor squad performs against MSU CSM. Stand just outside 24", shoot, hit on 3s, wound on 4s, leaving you with a 5+ saves. That's one or two wounds a turn. It there's a Captain and a Lieutenant nearby giving rerolls to hit and wound, the number of wounds goes up to 3.4.

 

This sounds like a hard counter to MSU Chaincannon Marines, I consider it a showstopper. Even if the CSMs are in cover, they'd still need to move to shoot to do anything. I realize you're probably thinking of putting them into the Spartan and dropping them off to create a firebase, but understand - realistically, in most games, they will not disembark in the middle of his army. They will get out somewhere near his lines and only be able to shoot at one or two units. The rest of his forces can open up on this firebase, they are going to have better range than you, but they will also probably have Tactical Doctrine active by the time you disembark. So those guns are probably only good for a single turn.

 

OTOH, Autocannons are 48" S7 AP-1 D2 hitting on 3s with possible rerolls to hit from a CL. You outrange PEQ with guns that kill on every failed save and they have to come to you to return fire. Does not appear to be a hard counter for this unit, PEQ have to footslog to fight it and forcing them to move is always a good tactic against NuMarines.

 

I like how you loaded up on autcannons with the other CSM squads and the Havocs. BUT the CSMs in the Red Corsairs Detachment are MSU units. They won't get rerolls from Abaddon (the horror!) and that 3CP bring 'em back stratagem is not very valuable on a 5 man squad. If they were Black Legion, you could just stand them near Abaddon / the Dark Apostle and kill some PEQ every turn.

 

What really concerns me is the Spartan, they seem to be screwed against PEQ. First off, NuMarines start off with Devastator Doctrine active and they have AP -4 on some of their guns. That means you have no save against the main gun on a Repulsor, which can shoot twice. This means 3 Repulsors can put the Spartan down. Second, of the sponson weapons available, Laser Destroyers are unlikely to do much damage. Heavy 1, d6 damage 33% of the time, 2d6 damage 50%. That's a maximum of 12 wounds. Compare that to the quad lascannons with a straight 4d6 damage.

 

What are you going to be shooting at where S12 makes a difference over S9?

 

That's not saying the quad lascannons are good. You have to fire 4 lascannons at each target, it's not the same as 4 independent lascannons. Which brings me back to the Chaincannons, lascannons are only 5 points more and have a 48" range. You will likely do more wounds with a lascannon over a chaincannon simply because you don't have to get into range to fire, a turn or two of extra shooting makes a big difference against NuMarines.

 

Lastly, you call your list mid-range, but you have a Noctolith Crown. That's there to increase invul saves for long-range shooty units. It's a great thing if you have the right guns. I don't know what TOs think about fortification detachments, but this puts you at 4. You might want to consider this in case you want to bring this list to a tournament.

 

I'd really think through what you want to accomplish with the MSU marines and the Spartan. This list would benefit from re-organizing the detachments to maximize aura benefits and figuring out a uniform shooting strategy. I know this feedback sounds critical, but you do have the beginnings of a list that can stand up to NuMarines effectively. Autocannons, Lascannons and Missile Launchers appear to be our best heavy weapon options, I think you'd do better optimizing around them and forcing your opponent to close in to fight mid-range.

Edited October 10, 2019 by techsoldaten

[Excessus]

I guess it depends on how much LoS blocking terrain you got on the field as well. I mean a small plas/combiplas CSM squad could hide behind a terrain feature and make small squads of primaris cautious about moving close, area denial is also important. 

[BrainFireBob]

Hey Techsoldaten. Couple of things. For clarity, I'm aware that Abaddon can't take field commander- that line was to indicate an extra basic lord.

 

On formations- locals typically don't count fortifications. I'll need to re-evaluate how it goes together.

 

Essentially, the idea was to start the Rubrics on the table, put the chaincannon squads in the Spartan, and put the Spartan by the Crown.

 

Use the Apostle and Sorc to hustle the Rubrics to bring on pain, the lord by the lonely havocs and autocannon troops by the crown to keep up shooting, and Abaddon wherever he was needed to bring his full re-rolls. The Chaincannons in the other CSM squads were just so they could all jump out and do something at once.

 

The real core idea was to be flexible- if 3 CSM squads are allocated to the Spartan, the Havocs could also hop in, or Abaddon, or the Rubrics with their support characters could hop in if necessary. The Crown's mainly for first turn before pushing forward, and in later turns to provide that little something extra to the "backfield" troop squads (and Havocs if they're left there). So depending on the opponent and board, flip things around- but the key was "Shoot the tough Spartan, or shoot the tough rubrics" while having at least a little shooting capability that's left alone as consequence.

 

Thing is, need four HQs as I was thinking of this- one to buff the havocs/backfield troops, Abaddon for his awesomeness, and the Apostle and Sorc to Weaver/Warptime/Benediction the Rubrics until they can unleash.

[techsoldaten]

Hey Techsoldaten. Couple of things. For clarity, I'm aware that Abaddon can't take field commander- that line was to indicate an extra basic lord.

 

On formations- locals typically don't count fortifications. I'll need to re-evaluate how it goes together.

 

Essentially, the idea was to start the Rubrics on the table, put the chaincannon squads in the Spartan, and put the Spartan by the Crown.

 

Use the Apostle and Sorc to hustle the Rubrics to bring on pain, the lord by the lonely havocs and autocannon troops by the crown to keep up shooting, and Abaddon wherever he was needed to bring his full re-rolls. The Chaincannons in the other CSM squads were just so they could all jump out and do something at once.

 

The real core idea was to be flexible- if 3 CSM squads are allocated to the Spartan, the Havocs could also hop in, or Abaddon, or the Rubrics with their support characters could hop in if necessary. The Crown's mainly for first turn before pushing forward, and in later turns to provide that little something extra to the "backfield" troop squads (and Havocs if they're left there). So depending on the opponent and board, flip things around- but the key was "Shoot the tough Spartan, or shoot the tough rubrics" while having at least a little shooting capability that's left alone as consequence.

 

Thing is, need four HQs as I was thinking of this- one to buff the havocs/backfield troops, Abaddon for his awesomeness, and the Apostle and Sorc to Weaver/Warptime/Benediction the Rubrics until they can unleash.

 

Hey BrainFireBob - hope I did not strike a nerve. Pardon my pessimism, didn't mean to cause offense.

 

Let us know how your list works out against NuMarines. I've only done the mathhammer on Rubrics and can only guess what will happen.

 

More people need to be talking about what works and what doesn't. I'm glad you chose to share your list and look forward to learning more.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Idea popped into my head, Venomcrawler x3 + Lord Discordant. 

 

This would include an Apostle for the -1 to be hit so the Disco lord isn't shot off table top of 1. 

 

But those 3 + Lord is a 550 point detachment, and the Venomcrawlers in particular seem tailor-made to blow raspberries in the direction of multi-wound infantry like our new primaris opponents. 

 

36 inch range guns, 2d3 shots PER venomcrawler, multi wound damage, and solid AP. we are out of range of their guns for at least a turn if not longer. If you designed the list with this concept in mind (outranging the ludicrous amount of str 4 shooting with ap1/2 that Primaris lists put out, does this have merit? Its slightly over 25% of the list but it has some definite advantages when dealing with massed Primaris infantry (aggressor, Intercessor, or otherwise) 

On paper to me it looks like it does, but I haven't thrown down yet with it. 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Sonoftherubric21

[Kythnos]

Idea popped into my head, Venomcrawler x3 + Lord Discordant.

 

This would include an Apostle for the -1 to be hit so the Disco lord isn't shot off table top of 1.

 

But those 3 + Lord is a 550 point detachment, and the Venomcrawlers in particular seem tailor-made to blow raspberries in the direction of multi-wound infantry like our new primaris opponents.

 

36 inch range guns, 2d3 shots PER venomcrawler, multi wound damage, and solid AP. we are out of range of their guns for at least a turn if not longer. If you designed the list with this concept in mind (outranging the ludicrous amount of str 4 shooting with ap1/2 that Primaris lists put out, does this have merit? Its slightly over 25% of the list but it has some definite advantages when dealing with massed Primaris infantry (aggressor, Intercessor, or otherwise)

 

On paper to me it looks like it does, but I haven't thrown down yet with it.

That is actually a nice idea. Very fitting for my Iron Warriors. I might be giving this a try.

[Prot]

Idea popped into my head, Venomcrawler x3 + Lord Discordant. 

 

This would include an Apostle for the -1 to be hit so the Disco lord isn't shot off table top of 1. 

 

But those 3 + Lord is a 550 point detachment, and the Venomcrawlers in particular seem tailor-made to blow raspberries in the direction of multi-wound infantry like our new primaris opponents. 

 

36 inch range guns, 2d3 shots PER venomcrawler, multi wound damage, and solid AP. we are out of range of their guns for at least a turn if not longer. If you designed the list with this concept in mind (outranging the ludicrous amount of str 4 shooting with ap1/2 that Primaris lists put out, does this have merit? Its slightly over 25% of the list but it has some definite advantages when dealing with massed Primaris infantry (aggressor, Intercessor, or otherwise) 

 

On paper to me it looks like it does, but I haven't thrown down yet with it. 

 

So I took nearly this to an ITC GT.

 

I know you're a glass is half full kind of guy, and I'm not going to say it's 'bad', but it does have a drawback: You are reliant on two things: 1 is the DiscoLord. Otherwise you're hitting on 4's, and sometimes 5's, then on 6's vs stuff like Eldar/eldar flyers. 

 

2. is they MUST get into CC against (preferably) infantry to have some fun, and any longevity. 

 

I went through phases of trying to make VC's better: I used 2 Disco Lords, and 2 VC's  in the ITC GT. I won all my mirror type matches (vs. typically Flawless Host or The Purge (for obvious reasons)).

 

Cursed Earth and Sacrifice can help, but these guys are too fast for it to work too much. Anti Character is huge so I had trouble keeping my Dark Apostle alive in those games as he'd be the prime target of any sniping in almost every game. Tournament terrain is hit and miss though, and that's one other thing to mention about Venoms.

 

IF your opponent is infantry based, and you're playing on a table with even a mediocre amount of ruins, all he has to do is get on the second floor and you're just watching him take shots at you. 

 

+++++++++++++

 

When I remake the literally 50 or so lists I have for black legion and I keep NuMarines in mind, a lot of them start to end up looking like my last tournament list, which did only get me an upper 50% finish.

 

I actually love Venomcrawlers (the models) and I thought this would be the answer, and I could back them up with Abe and a strong backline of shooty Havocs and Oblits.  I led the way with dual Disco's. And it just fell short against the 'big names' in 40K. Eldar flyers, Astra, Knights. Stuff you'll see a lot in tournament play.

 

So as I said a few of the lists I was 'remaking' were some how starting to look a LOT like my tournament list, except where I had two battalions full of (mostly) cultists for troops, I pulled them out for 5 man marine squads to save on 'free' points for my opponents.

[helterskelter]

I swear my venomcrawler is significantly more lethal when it explodes, I've done more damage with it when it dies than it does when alive, even when used in combination with a Disco Lord.

I do love my monster mash detachment though

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

Idea popped into my head, Venomcrawler x3 + Lord Discordant. 

 

This would include an Apostle for the -1 to be hit so the Disco lord isn't shot off table top of 1. 

 

But those 3 + Lord is a 550 point detachment, and the Venomcrawlers in particular seem tailor-made to blow raspberries in the direction of multi-wound infantry like our new primaris opponents. 

 

36 inch range guns, 2d3 shots PER venomcrawler, multi wound damage, and solid AP. we are out of range of their guns for at least a turn if not longer. If you designed the list with this concept in mind (outranging the ludicrous amount of str 4 shooting with ap1/2 that Primaris lists put out, does this have merit? Its slightly over 25% of the list but it has some definite advantages when dealing with massed Primaris infantry (aggressor, Intercessor, or otherwise) 

 

On paper to me it looks like it does, but I haven't thrown down yet with it. 

 

So I took nearly this to an ITC GT.

 

I know you're a glass is half full kind of guy, and I'm not going to say it's 'bad', but it does have a drawback: You are reliant on two things: 1 is the DiscoLord. Otherwise you're hitting on 4's, and sometimes 5's, then on 6's vs stuff like Eldar/eldar flyers. 

 

2. is they MUST get into CC against (preferably) infantry to have some fun, and any longevity. 

 

I went through phases of trying to make VC's better: I used 2 Disco Lords, and 2 VC's  in the ITC GT. I won all my mirror type matches (vs. typically Flawless Host or The Purge (for obvious reasons)).

 

Cursed Earth and Sacrifice can help, but these guys are too fast for it to work too much. Anti Character is huge so I had trouble keeping my Dark Apostle alive in those games as he'd be the prime target of any sniping in almost every game. Tournament terrain is hit and miss though, and that's one other thing to mention about Venoms.

 

IF your opponent is infantry based, and you're playing on a table with even a mediocre amount of ruins, all he has to do is get on the second floor and you're just watching him take shots at you. 

 

+++++++++++++

 

When I remake the literally 50 or so lists I have for black legion and I keep NuMarines in mind, a lot of them start to end up looking like my last tournament list, which did only get me an upper 50% finish.

 

I actually love Venomcrawlers (the models) and I thought this would be the answer, and I could back them up with Abe and a strong backline of shooty Havocs and Oblits.  I led the way with dual Disco's. And it just fell short against the 'big names' in 40K. Eldar flyers, Astra, Knights. Stuff you'll see a lot in tournament play.

 

So as I said a few of the lists I was 'remaking' were some how starting to look a LOT like my tournament list, except where I had two battalions full of (mostly) cultists for troops, I pulled them out for 5 man marine squads to save on 'free' points for my opponents.

 

 

Hmmm....Alternate thought: 

 

Forgefiend X3 + Disco Lord. Would this work instead with tons of STR 8 D2 shooting?  Bit tougher then VCs. Marginally more expensive (detachment comes to 604 off-hand) and the melee element for them is not really a big deal, obviously this does waste the disco lords potential but seems useful. 

 

And you get that same 36 inch range band width, more wounds, but the guns are heavy as opposed to venom-crawlers which average 2-3 shots per crawler with slightly better damage output due to having more then ap-1.  But the guns put out 8 shots each, if you wanted to add too that you could give them plasma-faces but those guns are 24 inchs so not optimal for this situation. 

 

To clarify "council of traitors" is my go-to strat for my Black Legion. So there would be a sorcerer, some kind of lord or prince, and an apostle with his little dudes following behind. But that is just kinda a standard build for me in most games regardless of opponent as I have found the extra traits useful and Apostles/Sorcerers are both pretty great right now (Raven Guard level sniper spam not withstanding lol) 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Sonoftherubric21

[Prot]

Council is great.

 

I think your amended idea seems fun. Last tournament my friend took that setup almost identical, and he used Defilers instead of Maulers for forward pressure ( at my insistence due to their point reduction and shooting ability). Sadly he did not do that well and when I talked to him he felt largely outgunned in the tournament. But I can’t reme his match ups. Give it a roll though. I really like Forgefiends, and my friend ran 2 I believe.

 

I think I mentioned earlier my greatest success was running BL and Chaos Knights But I think that’s kind of outside the scope of the conversation. One thing that leads me to is going back to a list I used a few months ago... a super heavy Kytan which gets the Legion Keyword. On its own, not a great unit but with a Sorc and a Disco Lord I was able to compete against a wider array of foe and a lot of the super marine firepower is mid level. I can make him-1 to hit as well.

 

I do love the Venomcrawler though. If I could make it work in mass, I would be really happy. The unit feels very chaosy and is thematic.

 

For now I’m just holding on til November.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Prot

[Sonoftherubric21]

Yeah I would imagine either PA 2, OR Chapter Approved will help a great deal in this regard.

 

I'll give a couple of these ideas a shot and see what I come up with, to be fair my Meta isn't quite as "hard" as yours from a competitive aspect.   Semi-comp or Casual most of the time, only a few specific players play for comp lists. 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Sonoftherubric21

[techsoldaten]

Over the weekend, played a Narrative game against Iron Hands. Wanted to talk about it, very different game without restrictions on psychic powers / summoning / Stratagems / Rule of 3.

 

This was a friendly game, I didn't feel like playing the Daemon Primarchs again and just threw together a list. We both wanted to see what the other could do.

 

My list was Black Legion and consisted of 2 Battalions and a Spearhead. I had a Chainlord, a Sorcerer with JP, a Lord Discordant, 4 MoPs, 6 x 8 man CSM squads with plasma guns, 2 Rhinos and 4 x Venomcrawlers. His list consisted of a Captain, a Lieutenant, 4 x 10 Intercessors, a Redemptor, 2 x 3 Eliminators with Sniper Rifles, a LRC, a Leviathan and a couple other things (don't remember exactly.)

 

My goal was to summon as much as possible to destroy his army. His goal was to take out my HQs before I can do that.

 

I deployed the 2 Rhinos with a CSM squad and a MoP inside. Everything else started on the table and he went first. He did some damage with the Eliminators, gunning down one of the MoPs and putting a couple wounds on the Sorcerer. My first turn was mostly movement, I managed to do one wound on one Eliminator. The second turn, he got in range with the LRC and a couple of the Intercessor squads, they managed to destroy a CSM squad and put wounds on another. The Eliminators focused on the Discolord and whiffed. Regular PEQ stuff, in another round they would have had me.

 

My second turn, the MoPs in the Rhinos disembarked I started summoning. With the benefit of the Venomcrawlers, the Sorcerer and the MoPs summoned 60 Bloodletters and a Skullmaster. Then I got off Incursion on 2 of the MoPs and summoned a Bloodthirster and 20 Horrors. Didn't do too much that turn, Bloodletters charged both Eliminator squads and destroyed them, and the Discolord charged an Intercessor squad, killing a bunch of Primaris.

 

His third turn, he mostly shot up Daemons, he destroyed one VC, the Leviathan got close to the Discolord but didn't make a charge, the Redemptor was standing back shooting. But he didn't have snipers anymore and was going to have to kill whatever I summoned. I probably did this in the wrong order, but my third turn, my MoPs summoned 60 Plaguebearers. I was only able to get Incursion off on one of the MoPs and he summoned a Poxbringer. The Discolord and the other 2 VCs were all in combat, my CSMs were shooting, and the Rhinos were off to grab objectives.

 

From there, the rest of the game was a back and forth, me summoning, him killing what I summoned and leaving my CSMs alone because they weren't doing much. The Chainlord did get a decent charge and did 8 MWs on the Leviathan. The game ended in a tie, I could have won had a squad of CSMs made a charge.

 

Here's my takeaways from that game:

 

- Chaos versus NuMarines is more enjoyable in Narrative play. 

 

- Not having to pay points for Summoned units is what GW should have done.  I didn't really stand a chance without all the summoning, it made the game feel "balanced."

 

- Venomcrawlers do get some work done. The summoning bonus is just a cherry on top.

[Panzer]

Over the weekend, played a Narrative game against Iron Hands. Wanted to talk about it, very different game without restrictions on psychic powers / summoning / Stratagems / Rule of 3.

 

This was a friendly game, I didn't feel like playing the Daemon Primarchs again and just threw together a list. We both wanted to see what the other could do.

 

My list was Black Legion and consisted of 2 Battalions and a Spearhead. I had a Chainlord, a Sorcerer with JP, a Lord Discordant, 4 MoPs, 6 x 8 man CSM squads with plasma guns, 2 Rhinos and 4 x Venomcrawlers. His list consisted of a Captain, a Lieutenant, 4 x 10 Intercessors, a Redemptor, 2 x 3 Eliminators with Sniper Rifles, a LRC, a Leviathan and a couple other things (don't remember exactly.)

 

My goal was to summon as much as possible to destroy his army. His goal was to take out my HQs before I can do that.

 

I deployed the 2 Rhinos with a CSM squad and a MoP inside. Everything else started on the table and he went first. He did some damage with the Eliminators, gunning down one of the MoPs and putting a couple wounds on the Sorcerer. My first turn was mostly movement, I managed to do one wound on one Eliminator. The second turn, he got in range with the LRC and a couple of the Intercessor squads, they managed to destroy a CSM squad and put wounds on another. The Eliminators focused on the Discolord and whiffed. Regular PEQ stuff, in another round they would have had me.

 

My second turn, the MoPs in the Rhinos disembarked I started summoning. With the benefit of the Venomcrawlers, the Sorcerer and the MoPs summoned 60 Bloodletters and a Skullmaster. Then I got off Incursion on 2 of the MoPs and summoned a Bloodthirster and 20 Horrors. Didn't do too much that turn, Bloodletters charged both Eliminator squads and destroyed them, and the Discolord charged an Intercessor squad, killing a bunch of Primaris.

 

His third turn, he mostly shot up Daemons, he destroyed one VC, the Leviathan got close to the Discolord but didn't make a charge, the Redemptor was standing back shooting. But he didn't have snipers anymore and was going to have to kill whatever I summoned. I probably did this in the wrong order, but my third turn, my MoPs summoned 60 Plaguebearers. I was only able to get Incursion off on one of the MoPs and he summoned a Poxbringer. The Discolord and the other 2 VCs were all in combat, my CSMs were shooting, and the Rhinos were off to grab objectives.

 

From there, the rest of the game was a back and forth, me summoning, him killing what I summoned and leaving my CSMs alone because they weren't doing much. The Chainlord did get a decent charge and did 8 MWs on the Leviathan. The game ended in a tie, I could have won had a squad of CSMs made a charge.

 

Here's my takeaways from that game:

 

- Chaos versus NuMarines is more enjoyable in Narrative play. 

 

- Not having to pay points for Summoned units is what GW should have done.  I didn't really stand a chance without all the summoning, it made the game feel "balanced."

 

- Venomcrawlers do get some work done. The summoning bonus is just a cherry on top.

 

No offense, but that was a rather tame list for Marines in general and especially for the new IH.

[Prot]

I agree. The IH list was really tame. The Chaos list was allowed unlimited reinforcements. Yet still a loss for Chaos with Narrative gameplay.

 

If I'm reading this correctly... he had no free reinforcements, and you had... 60 Bloodletters, a Skullmaster, 60 plaguebearers, a Poxbringer, a Bloodthirster, and 20 Horrors.... for free?

 

Wow is that incredibly disheartening. I mean again, unless I'm reading this wrong, you're playing a ton of points for free, he's playing a very basic IH list, and he still won under these conditions? Holy cow this is bonkers. lol.

 

I have to be misunderstanding something.

 

Then again, look at the results of Slaughterfest. Maybe not. But.. .wow.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Prot

[techsoldaten]

 

No offense, but that was a rather tame list for Marines in general and especially for the new IH.

 

 

True. My opponent is switching to Iron Hands from Deathwatch, he's in the process of building up his army.

 

While his list could have been more competitive, it's wasn't fatally flawed. He used a Stratagem to make his Leviathan a Character, gave it a Relic that made it -1 to wound with a 4+ invul. The Captain had FNP and the 2 of them tanked a ton of wounds throughout the game. He kept using a Stratagem that gave his Marines a +1 to hit, which basically meant an autohit against Daemons.

 

This was my first time against Iron Hands, so I didn't follow everything he did. But his army did stand up to 2,000 points of Black Legion in addition to a ton of Daemons.

 

My point was Narrative Play felt more balanced between the two factions.

 

I agree. The IH list was really tame. The Chaos list was allowed unlimited reinforcements. Yet still a loss for Chaos with Narrative gameplay.

 

If I'm reading this correctly... he had no free reinforcements, and you had... 60 Bloodletters, a Skullmaster, 60 plaguebearers, a Poxbringer, a Bloodthirster, and 20 Horrors.... for free?

 

Wow is that incredibly disheartening. I mean again, unless I'm reading this wrong, you're playing a ton of points for free, he's playing a very basic IH list, and he still won under these conditions? Holy cow this is bonkers. lol.

 

I have to be misunderstanding something.

 

Then again, look at the results of Slaughterfest. Maybe not. But.. .wow.

 

Well, look at the Chaos list, it wasn't competitive either. Without the summoning, I probably would have been tabled early.

 

This was a friendly game, I was littering the table with Daemons and he was destroying them pretty quickly.

 

The Chainlord, the Discolord and the Venomcrawlers got a lot of work done, but his Dreads and the LRC were very potent defense.

Edited October 15, 2019 by techsoldaten

[Panzer]

I get what you are saying but my take away is a different one. It seems to be even more obvious how unbalanced that matchup is that you could barely keep up with a ton of free stuff against a non-optimized list from someone new to that subfaction.

 

 

Then again, if that's the new powerlevel it might be time to let reinforcements be free again. Afaik chaos is the faction who benefits the most from it anyway.

Edited October 15, 2019 by sfPanzer

[helterskelter]

Cant give dreadnaughts relics, so as much as you severely outpointed him, that dread shouldn't have had that gubbins