Chaos vs. New Marines

[Sonoftherubric21]

I think its worth noting that this is *NOT JUST CHAOS* by any stretch of the imagination. 

 

The new marine book is so out of whack it is shifting all of 8th 40k and Iron Hands are the new "gatekeeper" list IMO. 

 

I have similar posts from basically every army-focused Meta. So this is something that will very quickly become evident to GW over the next few tourneys and I think that (much like AOS) we will see a new paradigm from books going forward. I know ATM that doesn't help but its something to note moving into the future. 

[Panzer]

Cant give dreadnaughts relics, so as much as you severely outpointed him, that dread shouldn't have had that gubbins

 

You should be after making him a character?

[techsoldaten]

Cant give dreadnaughts relics, so as much as you severely outpointed him, that dread shouldn't have had that gubbins

 

He was able to do it through a Stratagem.

 

The wording said IRON HANDS DREADNOUGHT, which I took to mean anything with the Iron Hands and Dreadnought keywords. He put it on the Leviathan, took a Relic, and used another Stratagem to give it a Warlord Trait.

 

Iron Hands melee Dreads with WTs and Relics are something to watch out for. The thing waded into a squad of 20 Bloodletters, killed 14 of them with flamers and claws, and the rest were lost to morale. Then it took a charge from a Bloodthirster at full health, made a bunch of 4+ saves, then hit back at S16 to drop the BT to it's lowest tier.

 

I don't believe I wounded it all game. Incredible as a monster killer.

[Prot]

I think its worth noting that this is *NOT JUST CHAOS* by any stretch of the imagination. 

 

The new marine book is so out of whack it is shifting all of 8th 40k and Iron Hands are the new "gatekeeper" list IMO. 

 

 

 

I agree. But I think it's worse for Chaos Space Marines. I say this because before the NuMarines reboot, people really didn't go that far in prepping their lists in tournaments for anti-marines. Now they will for certain. But we are also marines... just the far less potent, and far less survivable type. lol

 

Also, it's hard to say right now, but IH might be an extreme aberration. But the Xenos that are very good at killing marines, look to be playing without major adjustments to the NuMarine meta. 

 

So we still don't have a true metric yet. Just as a note: Necrons, taking the last 15 recorded tournaments (before this weekend) had a 77% winning record against NuMarines. 

 

Necrons are excellent at killing marines. I only know one true Necron player. Stuff like this is going to change the NuMarine meta.

 

but for me it ends up setting up a very difficult future for CSM.

 

Just waiting for November.... :(

[Panzer]

 

I think its worth noting that this is *NOT JUST CHAOS* by any stretch of the imagination. 

 

The new marine book is so out of whack it is shifting all of 8th 40k and Iron Hands are the new "gatekeeper" list IMO. 

 

 

 

I agree. But I think it's worse for Chaos Space Marines. I say this because before the NuMarines reboot, people really didn't go that far in prepping their lists in tournaments for anti-marines. Now they will for certain. But we are also marines... just the far less potent, and far less survivable type. lol

 

 

Yeah it's the same as before when people were prepping to kill Knights asap and everybody else with less durable big toys had to suffer from it.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

Cant give dreadnaughts relics, so as much as you severely outpointed him, that dread shouldn't have had that gubbins

 

He was able to do it through a Stratagem.

 

The wording said IRON HANDS DREADNOUGHT, which I took to mean anything with the Iron Hands and Dreadnought keywords. He put it on the Leviathan, took a Relic, and used another Stratagem to give it a Warlord Trait.

 

Iron Hands melee Dreads with WTs and Relics are something to watch out for. The thing waded into a squad of 20 Bloodletters, killed 14 of them with flamers and claws, and the rest were lost to morale. Then it took a charge from a Bloodthirster at full health, made a bunch of 4+ saves, then hit back at S16 to drop the BT to it's lowest tier.

 

I don't believe I wounded it all game. Incredible as a monster killer.

 

The Relics section of the NuMarine Codex, and the Relics section of each Supplement state that Relics cannot be given to named characters or vehicle models. In the base codex it's on pg. 184.

[Aothaine]

Have to say that I'm super happy to hear how level-headed this thread is so far. Thank you everyone for reminding me that this community can be chill when new stuff comes out.

 

Onto the topic at hand!

 

How would you deliver a Chaos Lord w/ Thunderhammer and a squad of Chosen with Thunderhammers to the front lines of the marines? Initially I was thinking a Rhino might work. But I'm starting to have my doubts here. Maybe they will still work if I have something like Heldrakes intercept the teams that are heavily focused on anti-tank? I'm really not sure here. I know my IH list will shred pretty much anything and I'm not even using all the shenanigans. But I know I want to build a list around getting my Chaos Lord & Chosen with Thunder hammers into melee. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

One of 8th's issues right from the word GO! was the increased lethality of the Shooting Phase. One deathstar won't work, it'll get focused down too fast. Instead, you need threat saturation. Take a Rhino with Chosen? Also take a Rhino with Berzerkers. One Heldrake dies too fast? Try two, or add a FW Flyer instead.

[Aothaine]

One of 8th's issues right from the word GO! was the increased lethality of the Shooting Phase. One deathstar won't work, it'll get focused down too fast. Instead, you need threat saturation. Take a Rhino with Chosen? Also take a Rhino with Berzerkers. One Heldrake dies too fast? Try two, or add a FW Flyer instead.

 

Yeah I was thinking multiples of three. So something like this..

 

[HQ] Chaos Lord w/ Thunder Hammer x3

[E] Chosen x5 with Thunderhammer x3

in 3 rhinos

 

Then fill out the rest of the army to cover gaps, Heldrake x3 to help swamp down important enemy units and maybe three more rhinos with 10-man Berzerker squads and run World Eaters so they are the troops? Kind of glass hammery but it should be able to encircle most enemies

[Kain Mor]

Chosen with Thunderhammers will be an incredibly high threat, incredibly expensive, and incredibly squishy unit. You might get them in melee against an opponent once, but you can bet they’ll die first/second turn thereafter.

 

The only semi (semi) reliable way I can think of is the terrax assault drill, and pray for a 9 inch charge. Also then give the chosen icon of wrath so you can re roll a really bad roll, or CP the low dice if the other is high.

[WarriorFish]

One of 8th's issues right from the word GO! was the increased lethality of the Shooting Phase. One deathstar won't work, it'll get focused down too fast. Instead, you need threat saturation. Take a Rhino with Chosen? Also take a Rhino with Berzerkers. One Heldrake dies too fast? Try two, or add a FW Flyer instead.

This has been my thought too. I remember when discussing the point changes on Marines mentioning that 8th is all about numbers, so with some reduction in Marine prices there's nothing stopping Marines trying some of that pie. Especially with how deadly the game is so it almost feels mandatory now?

 

It'll help when Chaos get some of the recent C:SM point changes, but that doesn't help the present. With global split fire and the lethality of 8th it's a bit harder, and different by codex nature, but a tried and true plan I used to good effect back when Guard were rubbish was forcing my opponent to waste their effort. It's all very well having your deadly unit of deadliness, but knocking out cheap squads makes them expensive units...

 

It's a shame to treat Marines in the same way, but to be fair it was only a little while ago that this was also the case albeit not as bad Unfortunately I don't have enough models at the moment to diversify my lists or to add numbers to try and weather the storm so until I can change that I'm a bit stuck

[MegaVolt87]

I think you would be better off with 3 jump hammer lords and zerks with fist in rhino's than hammer chosen.

[Prot]

I think it’s universally agreed this is the shootist 40k we’ve ever experienced.

 

The problem is Chaos doesn’t do it well enough....at least out of the codex. I said this some pages ago.... the goto for shooty ( very competitive) chaos is the Purge with Forgeworld. The Heldrakes get you auto hits, and then you’re using the Deredeos and Contemptors with butchercannons to take advantage of the twin linking. ( the new renegade factions got the best chapter rules). Conversely for added pressure on the ground you take 3 Discos in a command detachment using Flawless Host to take full advantage of the exploding 5’s.

 

You don’t need Strategems, and you have the ultimate denial list with a very small model count and don’t waste any points on troops.

 

So is everyone happy with this? Not likely. It relies on the new Renegades, and Forgeworld for the damage.

 

This is basically a fact. Don’t blame me for it... it’s basically the best you’re going to squeeze out of pure CSM shooty lists.

 

Now if you want to apply pressure, then we’re back to Ghorisvexs teeth Lords, Daemon Princes, multiple Daemon Engines and a lot of nail biting.

 

I’m personally going back to a mix of Black Legion and Chaos Knights until i can figure something better out. I would love to use Zerkers in Rhinos, Possessed,etc. It’s just too easy right now to lose this stuff in my recent experiences. ( I’m talking everyday matchups, not just NuMarines).

[MegaVolt87]

I think it’s universally agreed this is the shootist 40k we’ve ever experienced.

 

The problem is Chaos doesn’t do it well enough....at least out of the codex. I said this some pages ago.... the goto for shooty ( very competitive) chaos is the Purge with Forgeworld. The Heldrakes get you auto hits, and then you’re using the Deredeos and Contemptors with butchercannons to take advantage of the twin linking. ( the new renegade factions got the best chapter rules). Conversely for added pressure on the ground you take 3 Discos in a command detachment using Flawless Host to take full advantage of the exploding 5’s.

 

You don’t need Strategems, and you have the ultimate denial list with a very small model count and don’t waste any points on troops.

 

So is everyone happy with this? Not likely. It relies on the new Renegades, and Forgeworld for the damage.

 

This is basically a fact. Don’t blame me for it... it’s basically the best you’re going to squeeze out of pure CSM shooty lists.

 

Now if you want to apply pressure, then we’re back to Ghorisvexs teeth Lords, Daemon Princes, multiple Daemon Engines and a lot of nail biting.

 

I’m personally going back to a mix of Black Legion and Chaos Knights until i can figure something better out. I would love to use Zerkers in Rhinos, Possessed,etc. It’s just too easy right now to lose this stuff in my recent experiences. ( I’m talking everyday matchups, not just NuMarines).

 

Yeah I hear you, if we don't get epic points cuts in the next CA, I will probably can my next IW's expansion to do 17 red corsairs CP battery and chaos knights instead. Or do my DIY primaris I am meaning to do. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I think it’s universally agreed this is the shootist 40k we’ve ever experienced.

 

The problem is Chaos doesn’t do it well enough....at least out of the codex. I said this some pages ago.... the goto for shooty ( very competitive) chaos is the Purge with Forgeworld. The Heldrakes get you auto hits, and then you’re using the Deredeos and Contemptors with butchercannons to take advantage of the twin linking. ( the new renegade factions got the best chapter rules). Conversely for added pressure on the ground you take 3 Discos in a command detachment using Flawless Host to take full advantage of the exploding 5’s.

 

You don’t need Strategems, and you have the ultimate denial list with a very small model count and don’t waste any points on troops.

 

So is everyone happy with this? Not likely. It relies on the new Renegades, and Forgeworld for the damage.

 

This is basically a fact. Don’t blame me for it... it’s basically the best you’re going to squeeze out of pure CSM shooty lists.

 

Now if you want to apply pressure, then we’re back to Ghorisvexs teeth Lords, Daemon Princes, multiple Daemon Engines and a lot of nail biting.

 

I’m personally going back to a mix of Black Legion and Chaos Knights until i can figure something better out. I would love to use Zerkers in Rhinos, Possessed,etc. It’s just too easy right now to lose this stuff in my recent experiences. ( I’m talking everyday matchups, not just NuMarines).

Has anybody heard how Nick Nanavati's Possessed/Berserker list did at Mythicos last weekend? I know he basically did it on a dare, but the results might be informative for the discussion here. I can't find in on BCP.

 

EDIT: Never mind, my feed pulled it up as a recent post from him but it was actually in March. Disregard.

Edited October 15, 2019 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Currently experimenting with some "hard target" lists where everything is either T5, multi-wound, a T8 tank, or inside a transport. Will let you know if I get a chance to test them before CA.

Edited October 15, 2019 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[techsoldaten]

 

The Relics section of the NuMarine Codex, and the Relics section of each Supplement state that Relics cannot be given to named characters or vehicle models. In the base codex it's on pg. 184.

 

Thank you for pointing that out. I had no clue that restriction exists.

 

But the Stratagems to make him a character and give him a Warlord Trait seemed legit.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

 

The Relics section of the NuMarine Codex, and the Relics section of each Supplement state that Relics cannot be given to named characters or vehicle models. In the base codex it's on pg. 184.

Thank you for pointing that out. I had no clue that restriction exists.

 

But the Stratagems to make him a character and give him a Warlord Trait seemed legit.

A lot of people have missed that one. I had the luxury of seeing a few folks who were doing video batreps or reviews trip over it and get corrected in the comments section.

[Iron_Within]

I think its worth noting that this is *NOT JUST CHAOS* by any stretch of the imagination. 

 

The new marine book is so out of whack it is shifting all of 8th 40k and Iron Hands are the new "gatekeeper" list IMO. 

 

I have similar posts from basically every army-focused Meta. So this is something that will very quickly become evident to GW over the next few tourneys and I think that (much like AOS) we will see a new paradigm from books going forward. I know ATM that doesn't help but its something to note moving into the future. 

 

That's a fair assessment however it misses the point in the CSM-centric perspective.

First however, Iron Hands and "NuMarines" are two different beasts, Iron Hands most competitive builds will rip apart an Ultramarine/Raven Guard/Vanilla Marine force so I think the comparison is redundant until the IH are reigned in a little.

 

Anyway. The bitterness is the NuMarines is right on the heels of the CSM "update". I think I'll always be bitter about it (I've not played a GW game since it's release, it's killed my enthusiasm).

 

Onto trying to be positive for those who aren't me though :P 

When not facing IH  think Havocs and Marines in Rhino' would be a good shout, the Rhinos are little more than ablative armour for the Cannons Havocs and Plasma/Combi Plasma squad. Spread across three Rhino's and cover it's hard to take out all 3 in a turn without repulser spam.

[Aothaine]

 

Onto trying to be positive for those who aren't me though

 

When not facing IH  think Havocs and Marines in Rhino' would be a good shout, the Rhinos are little more than ablative armour for the Cannons Havocs and Plasma/Combi Plasma squad. Spread across three Rhino's and cover it's hard to take out all 3 in a turn without repulser spam.

 

 

This is how I build most of my ground pounder lists for Chaos anyway. 

 

I still want to test/build a list built around this core:

 

Legion: World Eaters

 

Rhino

[T] Berzerker (5-man): Chainaxe & Bolt Pistol x5

[HS] Havoc Squad: Reaper Chaincannons x2, Lascannon x2

 

Run three of these units. With three Quad-lascannon predators and another three rhinos with 5-man berzerkers and hammer lords with dark apostles and maybe Khârn. 

 

At least that is what I'm looking into right now.

[The Pounder]

I can’t pretend to have any experience with playing games with Chaos, but I have played a lot of 40k in my time.

 

I’ve been reading this thread and as others have said it’s coming at the solutions from the right angles.

 

We all know Marines (Iron Hands especially) are now the top of the pack. I don’t begrudge them their time in the sun, I played an Imperial Fists army a few times with my T’au and tabled him in all but 1 game. Marines needed an update desperately.

 

Now, I have made a list for 2000pts and I believe I can do well with it. It’s probably my all comers list as it includes all the models that have drawn me to the service of the Warmaster and dark gods!

 

First off will be the assault, fast moving element, which will include a Chaos Knight Rampager and 2 squads of Bezerkers in Rhinos.

The mid range threat will be 3 squads of CSM (2 units of 6 with Chaincannons and a squad of 10 with 2 Autocannons)

Supporting these at long range will be 3 squads of Havocs with 2 Lascannons and 2 Missile launchers.

The army will be led by Abaddon himself with a Sorcerer in Terminator Armour.

 

What do you gents think? Stupid idea? Or could it work? My main opponents will be Necrons, Eldar, Guard and possibly Death Guard or Imperial Fists.

 

Any help with the development of this force would be well received.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

I think its worth noting that this is *NOT JUST CHAOS* by any stretch of the imagination. 

 

The new marine book is so out of whack it is shifting all of 8th 40k and Iron Hands are the new "gatekeeper" list IMO. 

 

I have similar posts from basically every army-focused Meta. So this is something that will very quickly become evident to GW over the next few tourneys and I think that (much like AOS) we will see a new paradigm from books going forward. I know ATM that doesn't help but its something to note moving into the future. 

 

That's a fair assessment however it misses the point in the CSM-centric perspective.

First however, Iron Hands and "NuMarines" are two different beasts, Iron Hands most competitive builds will rip apart an Ultramarine/Raven Guard/Vanilla Marine force so I think the comparison is redundant until the IH are reigned in a little.

 

Anyway. The bitterness is the NuMarines is right on the heels of the CSM "update". I think I'll always be bitter about it (I've not played a GW game since it's release, it's killed my enthusiasm).

 

Onto trying to be positive for those who aren't me though

When not facing IH  think Havocs and Marines in Rhino' would be a good shout, the Rhinos are little more than ablative armour for the Cannons Havocs and Plasma/Combi Plasma squad. Spread across three Rhino's and cover it's hard to take out all 3 in a turn without repulser spam.

 

Imperial Fists might have something to say about both Iron Hands and our Rhinos coming up. Between the damage bonus  against vehicles in Devastator Doctrine, one free Orbital Strike for the appropriate Warlord Trait and the rain of mortal wounds that a Damocles + Impulsors + Iron Inferno + Wrack and Ruin can apparently manage (plus the ability to conserve points on characters using the Eye of Hypnoth) they are going to bring some PAIN to any army that attempts to castle or hide in transports. Then there's the strat that effectively allows them to get a SECOND extra hit for bolt weapons on a 6 to hit (even deadlier when heavy bolter Cents fire at vehicles). The tricksier, less-centralized Iron Hands lists will survive better, but the castles, even Triple Repulsor, are going to get HURT.

 

Between these guys, and the other supplements, it's no wonder Reece talked about Marine armies destroying each other with cartoonish ease by Turn 2 in playtesting. He said that Hands would become the new "go to" in place of Ultras, but that Fists and Sallies would have the edge in raw damage output (at different ranges of course). Looks like that might come true.

Edited October 16, 2019 by GreaterChickenofTzeentch

[Aothaine]

 

First off will be the assault, fast moving element, which will include a Chaos Knight Rampager and 2 squads of Bezerkers in Rhinos.

The mid range threat will be 3 squads of CSM (2 units of 6 with Chaincannons and a squad of 10 with 2 Autocannons)

Supporting these at long range will be 3 squads of Havocs with 2 Lascannons and 2 Missile launchers.

The army will be led by Abaddon himself with a Sorcerer in Terminator Armour.

 

What do you gents think? Stupid idea? Or could it work? My main opponents will be Necrons, Eldar, Guard and possibly Death Guard or Imperial Fists.

 

Any help with the development of this force would be well received.

 

The first thing you need to decide is if you want to tailor your list. If you do, then you are going to want to change some things up. If not, just play what you enjoy really.

 

Your list seems pretty solid. I would test it out to see what you feel it is lacking. I'm not really sure that the CSMs are going to be doing so it might be better to drop the chaincannons off them and replace them with auto cannons so they can at least target light vehicles. The knight is going to soak a lot of fire in the first turn as no one wants those hitting their lines but you also have the rhinos with berzerkers in them. It is going to be pretty difficult for your opponent in regards to threats. Are you deep-striking Abaddon and the Sorcerer?

[Iron_Within]

 

 

Imperial Fists might have something to say about both Iron Hands and our Rhinos coming up. Between the damage bonus  against vehicles in Devastator Doctrine, one free Orbital Strike for the appropriate Warlord Trait and the rain of mortal wounds that a Damocles + Impulsors + Iron Inferno + Wrack and Ruin can apparently manage (plus the ability to conserve points on characters using the Eye of Hypnoth) they are going to bring some PAIN to any army that attempts to castle or hide in transports. Then there's the strat that effectively allows them to get a SECOND extra hit for bolt weapons on a 6 to hit (even deadlier when heavy bolter Cents fire at vehicles). The tricksier, less-centralized Iron Hands lists will survive better, but the castles, even Triple Repulsor, are going to get HURT.

 

Between these guys, and the other supplements, it's no wonder Reece talked about Marine armies destroying each other with cartoonish ease by Turn 2 in playtesting. He said that Hands would become the new "go to" in place of Ultras, but that Fists and Sallies would have the edge in raw damage output (at different ranges of course). Looks like that might come true.

 

My sheer level at bitterness at the Imperial Fists Strats, Warlord Traits and rules makes Perturabo say "steady on". I mean they go the "Iron Within Iron Without" strat!

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

 

 

Imperial Fists might have something to say about both Iron Hands and our Rhinos coming up. Between the damage bonus  against vehicles in Devastator Doctrine, one free Orbital Strike for the appropriate Warlord Trait and the rain of mortal wounds that a Damocles + Impulsors + Iron Inferno + Wrack and Ruin can apparently manage (plus the ability to conserve points on characters using the Eye of Hypnoth) they are going to bring some PAIN to any army that attempts to castle or hide in transports. Then there's the strat that effectively allows them to get a SECOND extra hit for bolt weapons on a 6 to hit (even deadlier when heavy bolter Cents fire at vehicles). The tricksier, less-centralized Iron Hands lists will survive better, but the castles, even Triple Repulsor, are going to get HURT.

 

Between these guys, and the other supplements, it's no wonder Reece talked about Marine armies destroying each other with cartoonish ease by Turn 2 in playtesting. He said that Hands would become the new "go to" in place of Ultras, but that Fists and Sallies would have the edge in raw damage output (at different ranges of course). Looks like that might come true.

 

My sheer level at bitterness at the Imperial Fists Strats, Warlord Traits and rules makes Perturabo say "steady on". I mean they go the "Iron Within Iron Without" strat!

 

They also have a strat where they reroll hits and wounds against us in Melee. As an IW player since Index Astartes 3.0, that hurts....at least until we get the same in reverse. And if you weren't bitter, I'd ask to see your membership card. LOL.